England vs. New Zealand - Match Thread

[Oakboy]

Hope May is fit to deal with the interminable kicking! They have more in their locker for sure

Agreed. Do you think it's time for Coka or Nowell (if fit) on the bench? Maybe not if Farrell is not 100%.

I would be tempted to say the Boks will just rain down high balls on Daly - thats what I would do.

I would be looking at how we can stop Faf playing and Manu has to stop De Allende.

So, are you advocating Manu at 12?

[Oakboy]

Why would anyone want to stop Faf playing, at the moment just give him the ball and watch him spanner it up

I think Itoje and Lawes will get to him far more quickly than Wales's 2nd row did. A few charge-downs would rattle SA.

[Banquo]

Why would anyone want to stop Faf playing, at the moment just give him the ball and watch him spanner it up

agreed, his kicking was at least 50% pony. He's too good a player to repeat it I'd think.

[Danno]

That's two Sundays in a row I've woken up early to be thoroughly bored and quite pissed off at a dire match involving Wales. Not impressed. Hope they pick a head coach with a bit of ambition in attack, for their own sake.

[Oakboy]

Hope May is fit to deal with the interminable kicking! They have more in their locker for sure

Agreed. Do you think it's time for Coka or Nowell (if fit) on the bench? Maybe not if Farrell is not 100%.

Depends on May's fitness tbh. Not sure what options Eddie realistically has if not fit; Nowell is perma crock, McConnochie not ready, and not even sure if Coka is fit. Suspect may see Slade at 15 if May not right..............

May reportedly suffering from dead leg, implying that it is 'just' an impact injury. That should be sorted in 7 days, if true. Same injury for Farrell.

Per BBC:

England have several other injury concerns for the meeting with either Wales or South Africa, with Owen Farrell and Jonny May nursing dead legs, while prop Kyle Sinckler has a calf issue.

[Danno]

Sinckler is a massive worry. Are we seriously going to see Marler at TH against the Boks in a final? That will destroy any goodwill EJ has built up with me in tthis tournament.

[p/d]

Why would anyone want to stop Faf playing, at the moment just give him the ball and watch him spanner it up

agreed, his kicking was at least 50% pony. He's too good a player to repeat it I'd think.

Indeed. Class act is Faf.

That game was truly a dire advert for ruby.

[Digby]

Why would anyone want to stop Faf playing, at the moment just give him the ball and watch him spanner it up

agreed, his kicking was at least 50% pony. He's too good a player to repeat it I'd think.

Indeed. Class act is Faf.

That game was truly a dire advert for ruby.

hardly just his kicking, his defence was rank, knocking the ball on into touch... I suppose he was still energetic

I can't believe how cheaply he gave up space for the Welsh try, and earlier in the match he ran the wrong way around a scrum in defence, imbecilic

[Oakboy]

Why would anyone want to stop Faf playing, at the moment just give him the ball and watch him spanner it up

agreed, his kicking was at least 50% pony. He's too good a player to repeat it I'd think.

Indeed. Class act is Faf.

That game was truly a dire advert for ruby.

Yes. Ironical that England took control of their game against NZ by NOT kicking until they were ahead. Today, both teams neutered themselves trying to kick for penalties for 80 minutes. One game was great for the neutral spectator. The other was not.

[Banquo]

agreed, his kicking was at least 50% pony. He's too good a player to repeat it I'd think.

Indeed. Class act is Faf.

That game was truly a dire advert for ruby.

hardly just his kicking, his defence was rank, knocking the ball on into touch... I suppose he was still energetic

I can't believe how cheaply he gave up space for the Welsh try, and earlier in the match he ran the wrong way around a scrum in defence, imbecilic

...as I said, I wouldn't expect a repeat.

[Digby]

Indeed. Class act is Faf.

That game was truly a dire advert for ruby.

hardly just his kicking, his defence was rank, knocking the ball on into touch... I suppose he was still energetic

I can't believe how cheaply he gave up space for the Welsh try, and earlier in the match he ran the wrong way around a scrum in defence, imbecilic

...as I said, I wouldn't expect a repeat.

A large part of it is he's under orders that aren't playing to his strengths. Didn't help him today that Pollard rather went into his shell. Potentially there's a lot more to come from both of them. But Far does seem to have a high error rate, even in games he plays well in

[Banquo]

hardly just his kicking, his defence was rank, knocking the ball on into touch... I suppose he was still energetic

I can't believe how cheaply he gave up space for the Welsh try, and earlier in the match he ran the wrong way around a scrum in defence, imbecilic

...as I said, I wouldn't expect a repeat.

A large part of it is he's under orders that aren't playing to his strengths. Didn't help him today that Pollard rather went into his shell. Potentially there's a lot more to come from both of them. But Far does seem to have a high error rate, even in games he plays well in

....for the opposite reason to Youngs.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm not bothered about the try being chalked off as it doesn't matter now, though would have been a nice reward for Underhill, but I'm still trying to understand if the handling of this moment and the logic used is correct.



At this moment Whitelock has had a clear line of sight of Sinkler holding the ball and not passing it on to Curry. Curry has moved in front of Sinkler here and runs straight at the gap between Whitelock and Moody. I'm not sure what else he could do to get out of the way.

Owens kept saying saying he was ahead of the ball carrier as that is the decisive factor, but I don't particularly see why.

We see a ton of dodgy moments of blocking and I do think there need to be some clear lines on it, but I don't really see how the defenders have been impeded here.

[Digby]

If Sinckler passes the ball from the position shown in that still there'd be no problem as you could say Whitelock has tried to buy a penalty buy tackling Curry, but given Sinckler proceeds to run behind Curry you'd be really fortunate not to have that ruled offside

[Stom]

I'm not bothered about the try being chalked off as it doesn't matter now, though would have been a nice reward for Underhill, but I'm still trying to understand if the handling of this moment and the logic used is correct.



At this moment Whitelock has had a clear line of sight of Sinkler holding the ball and not passing it on to Curry. Curry has moved in front of Sinkler here and runs straight at the gap between Whitelock and Moody. I'm not sure what else he could do to get out of the way.

Owens kept saying saying he was ahead of the ball carrier as that is the decisive factor, but I don't particularly see why.

We see a ton of dodgy moments of blocking and I do think there need to be some clear lines on it, but I don't really see how the defenders have been impeded here.

A rare time I'm with Digby. He ran directly between Sinckler and the defender. It doesn't matter if Whitelock bought it or not, it is blocking.

The other one, though, that one is a toughie. There was no clear and obvious, so that score should have stood.

[Puja]

As Diggers says - there is an argument that Whitelock has chosen to tackle Curry and, if the ball had been passed behind Curry, you'd say it was fine, but the gap Sinckler attacks is opened by someone who was ahead of him, which is the definition of offside.

Puja

[jngf]

The best performance by England since 2003 RWC final.

I think England must have read up on Sun Tzu in the sense that a battle can be won before its fought. I think forming the V formation in response to Haka was a masterstroke which rattled the Kiwis whilst being in no way disrespectful.

For me Underhill’s was the stand out performance amongst many candidates - his defence puts him right up there with the likes of Peter Winterbottom, Mickey Skinner and Joe Worsley as being a big hitting back row forward. I also think his carrying has really come on in this tournament too and think both him and T Curry are genuinely interchangeable in the 6 and 7 roles.

[Puja]

Just thinking of the Haka, does anyone else think that it's become increasingly performative over the last 4 years? I was showing my daughter highlights of the 2015 final and Kapo e Pango was done and dusted in about a minute. It was still threatening, it was still a challenge laid down, but it was done without unnecessary dramatics. Watching it against us and against Ireland and it's doubled in length to accomodate dramatic pauses between lines for gurning, glowering, and aggressive tongue-wiggling.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Just thinking of the Haka, does anyone else think that it's become increasingly performative over the last 4 years? I was showing my daughter highlights of the 2015 final and Kapo e Pango was done and dusted in about a minute. It was still threatening, it was still a challenge laid down, but it was done without unnecessary dramatics. Watching it against us and against Ireland and it's doubled in length to accomodate dramatic pauses between lines for gurning, glowering, and aggressive tongue-wiggling.

Puja

Just scrap it. Let the bastards be the same as everyone else. National anthem, then play rugby.

[Stom]

Just thinking of the Haka, does anyone else think that it's become increasingly performative over the last 4 years? I was showing my daughter highlights of the 2015 final and Kapo e Pango was done and dusted in about a minute. It was still threatening, it was still a challenge laid down, but it was done without unnecessary dramatics. Watching it against us and against Ireland and it's doubled in length to accomodate dramatic pauses between lines for gurning, glowering, and aggressive tongue-wiggling.

Puja

Because it's a marketing ploy and nothing more, that's why.

[richy678]

Agreed. Do you think it's time for Coka or Nowell (if fit) on the bench? Maybe not if Farrell is not 100%.

I would be tempted to say the Boks will just rain down high balls on Daly - thats what I would do.

I would be looking at how we can stop Faf playing and Manu has to stop De Allende.

So, are you advocating Manu at 12?

I'm advocating Manu smashing him. He looks like a strong boy.

[richy678]

I'm not bothered about the try being chalked off as it doesn't matter now, though would have been a nice reward for Underhill, but I'm still trying to understand if the handling of this moment and the logic used is correct.



At this moment Whitelock has had a clear line of sight of Sinkler holding the ball and not passing it on to Curry. Curry has moved in front of Sinkler here and runs straight at the gap between Whitelock and Moody. I'm not sure what else he could do to get out of the way.

Owens kept saying saying he was ahead of the ball carrier as that is the decisive factor, but I don't particularly see why.

We see a ton of dodgy moments of blocking and I do think there need to be some clear lines on it, but I don't really see how the defenders have been impeded here.

A rare time I'm with Digby. He ran directly between Sinckler and the defender. It doesn't matter if Whitelock bought it or not, it is blocking.

The other one, though, that one is a toughie. There was no clear and obvious, so that score should have stood.

It was illegal because the All Blacks all stopped playing and started doing Gallic Shrugs.

[Puja]

Just thinking of the Haka, does anyone else think that it's become increasingly performative over the last 4 years? I was showing my daughter highlights of the 2015 final and Kapo e Pango was done and dusted in about a minute. It was still threatening, it was still a challenge laid down, but it was done without unnecessary dramatics. Watching it against us and against Ireland and it's doubled in length to accomodate dramatic pauses between lines for gurning, glowering, and aggressive tongue-wiggling.

Puja

Because it's a marketing ploy and nothing more, that's why.

I don't mind that it's a marketing ploy - the game needs successful marketing ploys to grow or even just endure. And I like traditions and things that make our game unique. However, this one is currently on the verge of taking the piss.

Puja

[Banquo]

I also think his carrying has really come on in this tournament too and think both him and T Curry are genuinely interchangeable in the 6 and 7 roles.

Finally.

[Banquo]

Just thinking of the Haka, does anyone else think that it's become increasingly performative over the last 4 years? I was showing my daughter highlights of the 2015 final and Kapo e Pango was done and dusted in about a minute. It was still threatening, it was still a challenge laid down, but it was done without unnecessary dramatics. Watching it against us and against Ireland and it's doubled in length to accomodate dramatic pauses between lines for gurning, glowering, and aggressive tongue-wiggling.

Puja

It’s not just the last 4 years. It’s been a changing rota of organised performances for over 10. Doesn’t bother me, entertaining.