England vs. New Zealand - Match Thread

[richy678]

Just thinking of the Haka, does anyone else think that it's become increasingly performative over the last 4 years? I was showing my daughter highlights of the 2015 final and Kapo e Pango was done and dusted in about a minute. It was still threatening, it was still a challenge laid down, but it was done without unnecessary dramatics. Watching it against us and against Ireland and it's doubled in length to accomodate dramatic pauses between lines for gurning, glowering, and aggressive tongue-wiggling.

Puja

I think it has. But what can you do? I have already said the black magic has slipped now.
It is about theatre, and my view is if you shelled out ticket prices to go and see New Zealand, you would be upset if you didn't get the Haka.

You're quite likely to take your family to a big international so the non-combatants of your party would be looking forward massively to the Haka.

Im not sure there is any rule which says the opposition has to stand there like lemons, quite a few responses have been tried. Cockers was absolutely the Tigers/Midlander with Stormin' Norman. BOD chucked some grass in the air and got his shoulder bust for his trouble.

[Puja]

I also think his carrying has really come on in this tournament too and think both him and T Curry are genuinely interchangeable in the 6 and 7 roles.

Finally.

He has got a point - I was unconvinced with Curry being asked to play 6, as he was being asked to do traditional 6 roles and step back from just sniping for turnovers which was where he was good. He looked uncomfortable in the first few games that they tried it, but has really grown into it over this tournament.

Puja

[Puja]

Just thinking of the Haka, does anyone else think that it's become increasingly performative over the last 4 years? I was showing my daughter highlights of the 2015 final and Kapo e Pango was done and dusted in about a minute. It was still threatening, it was still a challenge laid down, but it was done without unnecessary dramatics. Watching it against us and against Ireland and it's doubled in length to accomodate dramatic pauses between lines for gurning, glowering, and aggressive tongue-wiggling.

Puja

I think it has. But what can you do? I have already said the black magic has slipped now.
It is about theatre, and my view is if you shelled out ticket prices to go and see New Zealand, you would be upset if you didn't get the Haka.

You're quite likely to take your family to a big international so the non-combatants of your party would be looking forward massively to the Haka.

Im not sure there is any rule which says the opposition has to stand there like lemons, quite a few responses have been tried. Cockers was absolutely the Tigers/Midlander with Stormin' Norman. BOD chucked some grass in the air and got his shoulder bust for his trouble.

I don't mind there being the Haka - I mind them taking forever with yelps and tongue-waggling between lines to draw the whole thing out.

Puja

[Banquo]

I also think his carrying has really come on in this tournament too and think both him and T Curry are genuinely interchangeable in the 6 and 7 roles.

Finally.

He has got a point - I was unconvinced with Curry being asked to play 6, as he was being asked to do traditional 6 roles and step back from just sniping for turnovers which was where he was good. He looked uncomfortable in the first few games that they tried it, but has really grown into it over this tournament.

Puja

But he hasn’t been asked to play a traditional role. As shown by his interventions. I was though about to say that his blindside defence from scrums hasn’t been good at all, so worth a thought; in open play though, he’s been mixing it up well.

[Puja]

Finally.

He has got a point - I was unconvinced with Curry being asked to play 6, as he was being asked to do traditional 6 roles and step back from just sniping for turnovers which was where he was good. He looked uncomfortable in the first few games that they tried it, but has really grown into it over this tournament.

Puja

But he hasn’t been asked to play a traditional role. As shown by his interventions. I was though about to say that his blindside defence from scrums hasn’t been good at all, so worth a thought; in open play though, he’s been mixing it up well.

He has - he's doing a lot of 6 work. The difference between the Italy game and now is that he's now also adding in his breakdown interventions alongside the bread and butter.

In general his defence needs work - he misses quite a few tackles through not getting his positioning right and diving full stretch for someone who can step away. Something for him to work on after he gets his RWC winner medal.

Puja

[Digby]

The big difference between Curry at 6 and 7 is he's giving away far less penalties now, which is massive for the team, not seeing much difference in his general approach. Were the pens he was giving away at 7 down to 1st phase support, and/or is he just that little bit more experienced?

[Banquo]

He has got a point - I was unconvinced with Curry being asked to play 6, as he was being asked to do traditional 6 roles and step back from just sniping for turnovers which was where he was good. He looked uncomfortable in the first few games that they tried it, but has really grown into it over this tournament.

Puja

But he hasn’t been asked to play a traditional role. As shown by his interventions. I was though about to say that his blindside defence from scrums hasn’t been good at all, so worth a thought; in open play though, he’s been mixing it up well.

He has - he's doing a lot of 6 work. The difference between the Italy game and now is that he's now also adding in his breakdown interventions alongside the bread and butter.

In general his defence needs work - he misses quite a few tackles through not getting his positioning right and diving full stretch for someone who can step away. Something for him to work on after he gets his RWC winner medal.

Puja

so be specific. Like Digby said I see little substantive difference to what he’s been doing, other than being more measured. I think he and Underhill have been given quite specific and complementary roles to do, and have looked good from the start with great improvements. That’s why the numbers didn’t bother me overly.

[Epaminondas Pules]

The big difference between Curry at 6 and 7 is he's giving away far less penalties now, which is massive for the team, not seeing much difference in his general approach. Were the pens he was giving away at 7 down to 1st phase support, and/or is he just that little bit more experienced?

Me neither. There is no discernible difference in his play at all apart from positioning at the scrum, and break away therein, which has been lacking somewhat. Though to be fair arguably his weakest facet has always been breaking off the scrum to make a positive tackle, regardless of short number.

The rest of his game is as it always was. The only difference is his execution (mental and physical) has improved.

[Banquo]

The big difference between Curry at 6 and 7 is he's giving away far less penalties now, which is massive for the team, not seeing much difference in his general approach. Were the pens he was giving away at 7 down to 1st phase support, and/or is he just that little bit more experienced?

Me neither. There is no discernible difference in his play at all apart from positioning at the scrum, and break away therein, which has been lacking somewhat. Though to be fair arguably his weakest facet has always been breaking off the scrum to make a positive tackle, regardless of short number.

The rest of his game is as it always was. The only difference is his execution (mental and physical) has improved.

Agreement breaks out all round! I do wonder if the positive tackle off the scrum bit is why Underhill has been asked to pack down on the openside.

[Epaminondas Pules]

That would make sense. It is the only area of Curry’s game where I’ve noticed a weakness, which considering his age is remarkable. Underhill’s tackling technique works perfectly in this role. Even then he misses the odd one as it’s a bloody hard job to do.

[Puja]

But he hasn’t been asked to play a traditional role. As shown by his interventions. I was though about to say that his blindside defence from scrums hasn’t been good at all, so worth a thought; in open play though, he’s been mixing it up well.

He has - he's doing a lot of 6 work. The difference between the Italy game and now is that he's now also adding in his breakdown interventions alongside the bread and butter.

In general his defence needs work - he misses quite a few tackles through not getting his positioning right and diving full stretch for someone who can step away. Something for him to work on after he gets his RWC winner medal.

Puja

so be specific. Like Digby said I see little substantive difference to what he’s been doing, other than being more measured. I think he and Underhill have been given quite specific and complementary roles to do, and have looked good from the start with great improvements. That’s why the numbers didn’t bother me overly.

Okay, so being specific:

- he's the option to carry off Youngs more often, whereas our 7 is given licence to hand back and be first man clearing more often.
- in defence he's not being allowed to float behind the defensive line and snipe for turnovers in a Jack Willis style - he's required as part of the press

It's not massive, but in his first few games with the 6 shirt on, he seemed subdued and I was concerned if he could continue to make as big of an impact if we restricted him from focussing on the two best parts of his game. As it turns out, he's got better for being restricted and it's more evidence that Eddie actually knows what he's doing and that we are not always right.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Puja, not always right??? Wow, there's a statement.

Is it fair to say that Jones is at his best when he's challenged? What I mean is that he was very special when he had to come up with something different to dominate from the KO against NZ. Contrast that with his early winning streak when he was passive.

I'd not be at all surprised by changes for next Saturday and if it enables Jones to keep SA guessing that's the way to go. Or, he might stick to the players and challenge them to play differently. Either way, he now seems to be in his element and I'd guess that his assistant coaches are fully on board.

[Banquo]

He has - he's doing a lot of 6 work. The difference between the Italy game and now is that he's now also adding in his breakdown interventions alongside the bread and butter.

In general his defence needs work - he misses quite a few tackles through not getting his positioning right and diving full stretch for someone who can step away. Something for him to work on after he gets his RWC winner medal.

Puja

so be specific. Like Digby said I see little substantive difference to what he’s been doing, other than being more measured. I think he and Underhill have been given quite specific and complementary roles to do, and have looked good from the start with great improvements. That’s why the numbers didn’t bother me overly.

Okay, so being specific:

- he's the option to carry off Youngs more often, whereas our 7 is given licence to hand back and be first man clearing more often.
- in defence he's not being allowed to float behind the defensive line and snipe for turnovers in a Jack Willis style - he's required as part of the press

It's not massive, but in his first few games with the 6 shirt on, he seemed subdued and I was concerned if he could continue to make as big of an impact if we restricted him from focussing on the two best parts of his game. As it turns out, he's got better for being restricted and it's more evidence that Eddie actually knows what he's doing and that we are not always right.

Puja

You are right, its not massive, indiscernible even- Curry has been sniping for turnovers, for example. I did not have those concerns, as to me, as before, the numbers only indicate where they are packing down in the scrum, and Eddie and Mitchell between them are changing roles for players game by game, rather than 'traditional roles'. The stats I've looked at seem remarkably consistent irrespective of notional number.

[Puja]

so be specific. Like Digby said I see little substantive difference to what he’s been doing, other than being more measured. I think he and Underhill have been given quite specific and complementary roles to do, and have looked good from the start with great improvements. That’s why the numbers didn’t bother me overly.

Okay, so being specific:

- he's the option to carry off Youngs more often, whereas our 7 is given licence to hand back and be first man clearing more often.
- in defence he's not being allowed to float behind the defensive line and snipe for turnovers in a Jack Willis style - he's required as part of the press

It's not massive, but in his first few games with the 6 shirt on, he seemed subdued and I was concerned if he could continue to make as big of an impact if we restricted him from focussing on the two best parts of his game. As it turns out, he's got better for being restricted and it's more evidence that Eddie actually knows what he's doing and that we are not always right.

Puja

You are right, its not massive, indiscernible even- Curry has been sniping for turnovers, for example. I did not have those concerns, as to me, as before, the numbers only indicate where they are packing down in the scrum, and Eddie and Mitchell between them are changing roles for players game by game, rather than 'traditional roles'. The stats I've looked at seem remarkably consistent irrespective of notional number.

Curry has been getting turnovers, but what he hasn't been doing is floating behind the defensive line, uninvolved, picking his moment to intervene at a ruck. We let him do that in the 6N, but not since putting a 6 on his back.

Puja

[Banquo]

Okay, so being specific:

- he's the option to carry off Youngs more often, whereas our 7 is given licence to hand back and be first man clearing more often.
- in defence he's not being allowed to float behind the defensive line and snipe for turnovers in a Jack Willis style - he's required as part of the press

It's not massive, but in his first few games with the 6 shirt on, he seemed subdued and I was concerned if he could continue to make as big of an impact if we restricted him from focussing on the two best parts of his game. As it turns out, he's got better for being restricted and it's more evidence that Eddie actually knows what he's doing and that we are not always right.

Puja

You are right, its not massive, indiscernible even- Curry has been sniping for turnovers, for example. I did not have those concerns, as to me, as before, the numbers only indicate where they are packing down in the scrum, and Eddie and Mitchell between them are changing roles for players game by game, rather than 'traditional roles'. The stats I've looked at seem remarkably consistent irrespective of notional number.

Curry has been getting turnovers, but what he hasn't been doing is floating behind the defensive line, uninvolved, picking his moment to intervene at a ruck. We let him do that in the 6N, but not since putting a 6 on his back.

Puja

Ok, I'll have to take your word for that- and it maybe a change in overall defensive strategy; but I don't see he's been playing a traditional 6 role at all.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Curry had been in the front line of defence throughout the 6 Nations too. He tends to hover when the tackle is being made either side of him, which is as you’d expect.

[Mikey Brown]

Interesting to see how different the NZ take on the England player ratings is.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rug ... in-over-nz

I'm not sure how you'd fail to notice Marler's impact in the tackle though, it was almost like having a fatter, slower Underhill back on.

[Mellsblue]

Interesting to see how different the NZ take on the England player ratings is.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rug ... in-over-nz

I'm not sure how you'd fail to notice Marler's impact in the tackle though, it was almost like having a fatter, slower Underhill back on.

I think Marler has been superb since his return. Can’t wait to read Puja’s reaction to the paragraph on George.

[Mellsblue]

Speaking of Marler’s form since returning, I wonder whether anything should be read into it. Our lot play relentlessly and some, not all, may benefit from some time with less intensity. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a sabbatical abroad, such as the NZ take, but it could range from that - not France but a less attritional league - through to taking a block - 6N, Summer tour or AIs - off. The RFU have moved in the correct direction with reduced summer tours post Lions but this might be the next logical step.

[Mikey Brown]

Interesting to see how different the NZ take on the England player ratings is.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rug ... in-over-nz

I'm not sure how you'd fail to notice Marler's impact in the tackle though, it was almost like having a fatter, slower Underhill back on.

I think Marler has been superb since his return. Can’t wait to read Puja’s reaction to the paragraph on George.

Why? Poor decision making on George's part to give Savea the ball there. Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.

[Banquo]

Interesting to see how different the NZ take on the England player ratings is.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rug ... in-over-nz

I'm not sure how you'd fail to notice Marler's impact in the tackle though, it was almost like having a fatter, slower Underhill back on.

I think its a decent write up, bar George commentary tbh. Think it shows the standards kiwis hold players to, and look at the AB ratings....

ETA- he's actually English. Awks.

[Puja]

Interesting to see how different the NZ take on the England player ratings is.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rug ... in-over-nz

I'm not sure how you'd fail to notice Marler's impact in the tackle though, it was almost like having a fatter, slower Underhill back on.

I think Marler has been superb since his return. Can’t wait to read Puja’s reaction to the paragraph on George.

Why? Poor decision making on George's part to give Savea the ball there. Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.

{twitches}

I also liked the confident assertion of Slade's shoulder charge, something easily disproven with the use of a replay and ownership of a pair of functioning eyes. Lazy journalism. Dare I even say - a fan with a keyboard.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Interesting to see how different the NZ take on the England player ratings is.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rug ... in-over-nz

I'm not sure how you'd fail to notice Marler's impact in the tackle though, it was almost like having a fatter, slower Underhill back on.

I think its a decent write up, bar George commentary tbh. Think it shows the standards kiwis hold players to, and look at the AB ratings....

ETA- he's actually English. Awks.

Ah. Marler (and Ford) aside I did actually mean that it seemed about right. A bit more grounded than some of the ratings with Daly, Farrell, Youngs etc. getting 9s, but the writer being England does undermine my point a fair bit.

[JellyHead]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... lands-haka?

It's like putting your toe on a 1980s breakdancers cardboard square.

[Spiffy]

Some of the comments on Curry, above, are perhaps a little harsh. The youngest kid in the England squad, a natural 7, he has been pitched in at the deep end and asked to do a job at 6. This I think he has done admirably. You can hyperanalyse his every move, but the fact remains, he has been outstanding in the shirt, well worth his place and highly instrumental in England's success in this RWC. He will only get better as a blindside as he matures, adds a little weight and experience in the role.
He and Underhill are a tremendous pair of flankers, probably the best combination in the RWC, which is remarkable, given their age and experience.