2003 V 2019

[Mikey Brown]

I'd love to see what Tuilagi would do outside Greenwood.

[p/d]

I think Francis could likely do a better job at 12 tbh. I am agreeing that he is a much better skipper now, but you have to be worth your place indisputably in the side before you can even be considered as skipper. Coach feels he is, so my thoughts are irrelevant.

Agree regards Francis. Also think Curry and a few others could do as good a job as skipper. Can’t buy into all this galvanising bollocks. MJ was surrounded by leaders, each with their role, each bringing the side together.

Anyhoo. Wouldn’t change one player from 2003.

[Mellsblue]

I'd love to see what Tuilagi would do outside Greenwood.

Given Tuilagi’s frugal use of words and general understatement, as a pairing they’d make a brilliant punditry duo. On the pitch, it would be glorious to watch. No serious kicking option, though, so Banquo would be seriously unhappy.

[Tigersman]

I would love to see Ford with Dawson inside him and Greenwood outside him.

[p/d]

I would love to see Ford with Dawson inside him and Greenwood outside him.

If any post is to get Beefeater back, this will be it

[Renniks]

I'm more surprised by what 2019 team has been able to do, and how they've suddenly clicked into being the team they are

It's definitely the best XV we've had in a number of years! With only a few positions that are questionable (9, 12, 15)

[Puja]

I would love to see Ford with Dawson inside him and Greenwood outside him.

I'd rather see Ford with Bracken - poor George has had enough of standing outside ropey passers!

Puja

[p/d]

Has anyone read Cleary’s XV based on England players who have appeared in a WC final....... no Wilco or Hill. Guess who he has at 10, and then guess why

[Puja]

Has anyone read Cleary’s XV based on England players who have appeared in a WC final....... no Wilco or Hill. Guess who he has at 10, and then guess why

Link?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I’m not sure we should be surprised. The front 5 are all test Lions, whether you pick Kruis or Lawes. The back up props were dirt tracker Lions. Billy would’ve been a test Lion were he fit. Underhill and Curry would both be in the top five England players this tournament, and credit to Jones for pairing them. Youngs and Farrell are both test Lions. As are Watson, Nowell and Daly. Joseph was a dirt tracker. Given form and fitness, you’d have to argue Tuilagi (definitely) and Ford would be test Lions, too.

[Oakboy]

Hill would be the first name on the team-sheet for me. Johnson and JW would follow next. All three were pretty certain to demand places in a World XV in 2003. The current 4,6, and 10 would probably not be in the 2019 version.

[Puja]

Found it and it is utterly bananas all the way down:

All-time XV
15 – Anthony Watson

Eddie Jones plays Watson on the wing but as he showed with the Lions he has all the skills to flourish at the rear, good in the air and tricky.
Anthony Watson in action against New Zealand at the weekend Credit: Getty Images
14 – Jason Robinson

A try-scorer in any company or any code, Robinson touched down in the 2003 final and his bewitching footwork got England out of many a jam in the knockout phases.
13 – Jeremy Guscott

There was no finer sight than watching Guscott on the glide in the outside channel, all grace and balance and intelligent angles.
Jeremy Guscott goes for the line against South Africa Credit: Russell Cheyne
12 – Will Greenwood

The brainbox of the midfield, deceptively strong too through the tackle with lovely lands for the offload.
11 – Jonny May

Rory Underwood pushed May close for this spot, an ace finisher, but May has the greater pace and is blossoming into an all-round footballer.
10 – Owen Farrell

What? No Jonny? Well, what? No Owen? Damned if you do, damned if you don’t but Farrell offers an option at inside centre (where Wilkinson also started out) and is the man in possession!
9 – Ben Youngs

Matt Dawson was right slap bang in the frame but Youngs has shown in this World Cup (his third) what an authoritative player he is.
1 – Mako Vunipola

Jason Leonard has many more caps to his name but even the great Harlequin would cede to the older Vunipola as having better hands and a tad more on the go-forward, even if Leonard was the more versatile prop.
2 – Jamie George

The Saracen has proven himself over the last two years to be a fine player as he would have to be to get ahead of either the hulk that was Steve Thompson or the pitbull that was, and is, Brian Moore.
3 – Phil Vickery

A lion-hearted figure across many years, Vickery was a massive presence at the scrum but a leader, too, always involved, always in the fight.
4 – Martin Johnson (capt)

Never mind the aura or the glower, Johnson was first and foremost a terrific set-piece forward who moved with the times and layered on handling and running skills.
Martin Johnson was the supreme England captain Credit: Getty Images
5 – Maro Itoje

There were many contenders for this shirt, be it Paul Ackford or Wade Dooley or Simon Shaw but even these fine players cannot match the all-round athleticism of Itoje.
6 – Tom Curry

The man who could/should have been in this shirt, Richard Hill, would be the first to commend the attributes of this 21 year old who has been included on merit given his performances at this World Cup.
Tom Curry tackles Beauden Barrett Credit: AFP
7 – Peter Winterbottom

There are plenty of good operators who could slot in here, including Sam Underhill of this era, but Winterbottom was one of the hardest men to ever wear the No 7 shirt.
8 – Lawrence Dallaglio

It may be that Billy Vunipola will one day eclipse Dallaglio but he will have to match the leadership skills that were such an integral part of the 2003 side.
Lawrence Dallaglio was a born leader for England Credit: Russell Cheyne
Replacement bench
16 – Brian Moore

There was far more to the Harlequin hooker than just being an angry ball of mayhem, forever in the face of the opposition. There was set-piece skill, too, of the highest order.
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17 – Jason Leonard

So experienced, so durable and versatile, too, comfortable on either side of the scrum, a team man to the core of his sizeable boots.
18 – Kyle Sinckler

How Sinckler has matured over the past 18-24 months, no longer a combustible novelty act but a serious scrummager as well as hugely valuable asset around the field.
19 – Paul Ackford

Once of this Telegraph parish, Ackford was also a modern-day, athletic forward in the mould of an Itoje long before it was vogue to be so.
20 – Lewis Moody

There was a zeal about Moody’s play that brooked no compromise and his energy as well as adaptability would be really influential from the bench.
21 – Matt Dawson

Dawson was the man who created the position from which Jonny Wilkinson was able to drop the goal in Sydney. A clever, sharp-witted scrum-half.
22 – Jonny Wilkinson

The only person who would never complain about Wilkinson being on the bench would be Wilkinson himself, a man without ego.
23 – Josh Lewsey

Lewsey was one of the bolters into the 2003 squad, a late presence, maybe, but one who made up for lost time with several commanding performances. Versatile, too.

Puja

[Banquo]

I'd love to see what Tuilagi would do outside Greenwood.

Given Tuilagi’s frugal use of words and general understatement, as a pairing they’d make a brilliant punditry duo. On the pitch, it would be glorious to watch. No serious kicking option, though, so Banquo would be seriously unhappy.

Plagiarising from Digby is pretty shameful, old boy.

[Oakboy]

You have to feel a bit sorry for Kay and Tindall - water carriers who never get a mention. That's where these combined XVs fall apart. Both were integral to the team unit at the time and probably figured high on opponents' 'players I don't like playing against' list.

[Mikey Brown]

The justification for Farrell over Wilkinson there makes even less sense than I was expecting.

Farrell can play 12, but so can Wilkinson. Also Farrell is the currently in possession of the 10 shirt (where he isn't currently playing for England) in this hypothetical all-time XV.

[Banquo]

The justification for Farrell over Wilkinson there makes even less sense than I was expecting.

Farrell can play 12, but so can Wilkinson. Also Farrell is the currently in possession of the 10 shirt (where he isn't currently playing for England) in this hypothetical all-time XV.

It makes even, even less sense when you look at their respective capabilities.......

[p/d]

The justification for Farrell over Wilkinson there makes even less sense than I was expecting.

Farrell can play 12, but so can Wilkinson. Also Farrell is the currently in possession of the 10 shirt (where he isn't currently playing for England) in this hypothetical all-time XV.

He would have been better off just coming out with it; 'We in the press are obliged to elevate one player to a Saintly status well beyond their ability. Wilkinson was once the chosen one, now we have Owen Andrew Farrell.'

[Rich]

I disagree with you on a few areas. Woodman was a phenomenal player and actually very underrated, so I'd have him at loosehead. Underhill isn't anywhere near being able to displace one of the holy trinity yet - he's in good form, but he's not up there with Back just yet. May vs Cohen is a judgement call, although I'd take May for being more elusive.

And lastly, and most importantly, I have to say I question your sanity for picking Farrell over Greenwood, who was the best centre in the world for a prolonged period. Terrible pundit, but amazing player.

Puja

Woodman was a great player but sadly injured too often. I always felt under Woodward that our scrum wasn't as good if he wasn't playing. That said Mako is already a good player - solid in the scrum and a better player in the loose. I'd prefer a fit Mako over a fit Woodman.

Don't forget that Back was on the verge of retirement in 2003 - in fact I'm not sure if he played for England again after the final. I also don't ever remember him putting in the kind of tackles Underhill did against the All Blacks.

In 2000/2001 didn't Woodward move Greenwood to outside centre to make way for a 2nd 5/8 type player in Mike Catt (who also played there in the 2003 semi). Yes Greenwood was a great player but so is Farrell and pretty good in defence as well as his right boot.

Id take Cohen's power in 2003 and May seems to have lost half a yard of pace...I was amazed he cut back instead of backing himself against Scott Barrett in the semi last week.

[Danno]

The justification for Farrell over Wilkinson there makes even less sense than I was expecting.

Farrell can play 12, but so can Wilkinson. Also Farrell is the currently in possession of the 10 shirt (where he isn't currently playing for England) in this hypothetical all-time XV.

He would have been better off just coming out with it; 'We in the press are obliged to elevate one player to a Saintly status well beyond their ability. Wilkinson was once the chosen one, now we have Owen Andrew Farrell.'

Wait, his initials are OAF? That's some unfair parenting

[p/d]

I disagree with you on a few areas. Woodman was a phenomenal player and actually very underrated, so I'd have him at loosehead. Underhill isn't anywhere near being able to displace one of the holy trinity yet - he's in good form, but he's not up there with Back just yet. May vs Cohen is a judgement call, although I'd take May for being more elusive.

And lastly, and most importantly, I have to say I question your sanity for picking Farrell over Greenwood, who was the best centre in the world for a prolonged period. Terrible pundit, but amazing player.

Puja

Woodman was a great player but sadly injured too often. I always felt under Woodward that our scrum wasn't as good if he wasn't playing. That said Mako is already a good player - solid in the scrum and a better player in the loose. I'd prefer a fit Mako over a fit Woodman.

Don't forget that Back was on the verge of retirement in 2003 - in fact I'm not sure if he played for England again after the final. I also don't ever remember him putting in the kind of tackles Underhill did against the All Blacks.

In 2000/2001 didn't Woodward move Greenwood to outside centre to make way for a 2nd 5/8 type player in Mike Catt (who also played there in the 2003 semi). Yes Greenwood was a great player but so is Farrell and pretty good in defence as well as his right boot.

Id take Cohen's power in 2003 and May seems to have lost half a yard of pace...I was amazed he cut back instead of backing himself against Scott Barrett in the semi last week.

The fact even Cleary couldn't bring himself to leave out Greenwood, opting to kick Wilco to the bench, speaks volumes to the regard Shaggy was/is held in.

[Rich]

Found it and it is utterly bananas all the way down:


Puja

Some questionable choices there:

My all time XV is:

1. Mako
2. Thompson
3. Cotton
4. Johnson
5. Itoje
6. Teague
7. Hill
8. Dallaglio

9. Dawson
10. Jonny

11. Duckham
12. Sharp
13. Manu
14. Robinson
15. Guscott

I know, I know Jerry never played a test at full back but after Lomu used Catt as a doormat in 1995, I thought we'd be better off with Catt at inside centre, Carling at outside centre and Jerry at full back...Jerry should have been tried at 15 by at least one national coach.

Oh and Ojomoh at 14 to tackle Lomu.

[Peej]

I disagree with you on a few areas. Woodman was a phenomenal player and actually very underrated, so I'd have him at loosehead. Underhill isn't anywhere near being able to displace one of the holy trinity yet - he's in good form, but he's not up there with Back just yet. May vs Cohen is a judgement call, although I'd take May for being more elusive.

And lastly, and most importantly, I have to say I question your sanity for picking Farrell over Greenwood, who was the best centre in the world for a prolonged period. Terrible pundit, but amazing player.

Puja

Woodman was a great player but sadly injured too often. I always felt under Woodward that our scrum wasn't as good if he wasn't playing. That said Mako is already a good player - solid in the scrum and a better player in the loose. I'd prefer a fit Mako over a fit Woodman.

Don't forget that Back was on the verge of retirement in 2003 - in fact I'm not sure if he played for England again after the final. I also don't ever remember him putting in the kind of tackles Underhill did against the All Blacks.

In 2000/2001 didn't Woodward move Greenwood to outside centre to make way for a 2nd 5/8 type player in Mike Catt (who also played there in the 2003 semi). Yes Greenwood was a great player but so is Farrell and pretty good in defence as well as his right boot.

Id take Cohen's power in 2003 and May seems to have lost half a yard of pace...I was amazed he cut back instead of backing himself against Scott Barrett in the semi last week.

I think it just showed that his hamstring really wasn't right and he couldn't hit top gear. At the same time, the defensive effort from Barrett is first class. As soon as the ball is past him, he knows exactly where it's going, and therefore exactly where he needs to try and go to stop it. Just an extremely smart bit of play.

[Beasties]

Found it and it is utterly bananas all the way down:


Puja

Some questionable choices there:

My all time XV is:

1. Mako
2. Thompson
3. Cotton
4. Johnson
5. Itoje
6. Teague
7. Hill
8. Dallaglio

9. Dawson
10. Jonny

11. Duckham
12. Sharp
13. Manu
14. Robinson
15. Guscott

I know, I know Jerry never played a test at full back but after Lomu used Catt as a doormat in 1995, I thought we'd be better off with Catt at inside centre, Carling at outside centre and Jerry at full back...Jerry should have been tried at 15 by at least one national coach.

Oh and Ojomoh at 14 to tackle Lomu.

Cotton was a LH no?

Jones isn't really worth commenting on apart from the opportunity to chuckle obvs. He had Jack Goodhue down as 3/10 ffs, and he was fighting a lone battle at times.

[Banquo]

Found it and it is utterly bananas all the way down:


Puja

Some questionable choices there:

My all time XV is:

1. Mako
2. Thompson
3. Cotton
4. Johnson
5. Itoje
6. Teague
7. Hill
8. Dallaglio

9. Dawson
10. Jonny

11. Duckham
12. Sharp
13. Manu
14. Robinson
15. Guscott

I know, I know Jerry never played a test at full back but after Lomu used Catt as a doormat in 1995, I thought we'd be better off with Catt at inside centre, Carling at outside centre and Jerry at full back...Jerry should have been tried at 15 by at least one national coach.

Oh and Ojomoh at 14 to tackle Lomu.

Cotton was a LH no?

Jones isn't really worth commenting on apart from the opportunity to chuckle obvs. He had Jack Goodhue down as 3/10 ffs, and he was fighting a lone battle at times.

Cotton played both sides well. The article was by Cleary btw.

[Beasties]

Oh and having only just caught up on my Sunday reading, Jones came out with this little snippet:

"Those of us so rarely wrong in our assessment of this wondrous and preposterous sport have a little to contend with today."