2003 V 2019

[Epaminondas Pules]

Who won 21 caps rather than over 90

[Spiffy]

It's quite surprising that England can't find a better passer than Youngs, who does not compensate for this lack of a basic skill in other aspects of his SH play.

I will note that Youngs is actually a superb passer. If you rewatch the NZ game, he was taking tap downs from the front of the lineout and fizzing them 20m to a player running at pace.

Where his problem lies is consistency, especially when playing at pace. He'll make a lot of very good passes and then one dire one at someone's feet or at their head and that's the one people remember. Like Saturday - he made 3 shocking errors amongst some other exceptional play and people (on here) said he was terrible.

I'd actually rate his passing higher than that of Dawson, who had a bit of a spray and pray approach to all his passes. Fewer egregious errors than Youngs, but a larger number of small ones.

Puja

I am not judging Youngs on the NZ game alone, but overall, on his many, many appearances for England. He has had some good games, but just as many (if not more) howlers. Perhaps I am missing something about his play, but I am always expecting him to cock something up, and frequently it is something simple. I agree with you that his major problems occur in playing at pace, especially with quick clearance from ruck and maul. Some might say that three shocking errors are not acceptable and could be game changers. Just to be fair, I didn't think a lot of Dawson's passing either, but he was quite a cunning little bogger with some rugby smarts.

[Puja]

It's quite surprising that England can't find a better passer than Youngs, who does not compensate for this lack of a basic skill in other aspects of his SH play.

I will note that Youngs is actually a superb passer. If you rewatch the NZ game, he was taking tap downs from the front of the lineout and fizzing them 20m to a player running at pace.

Where his problem lies is consistency, especially when playing at pace. He'll make a lot of very good passes and then one dire one at someone's feet or at their head and that's the one people remember. Like Saturday - he made 3 shocking errors amongst some other exceptional play and people (on here) said he was terrible.

I'd actually rate his passing higher than that of Dawson, who had a bit of a spray and pray approach to all his passes. Fewer egregious errors than Youngs, but a larger number of small ones.

Puja

I am not judging Youngs on the NZ game alone, but overall, on his many, many appearances for England. He has had some good games, but just as many (if not more) howlers. Perhaps I am missing something about his play, but I am always expecting him to cock something up, and frequently it is something simple. I agree with you that his major problems occur in playing at pace, especially with quick clearance from ruck and maul. Some might say that three shocking errors are not acceptable and could be game changers. Just to be fair, I didn't think a lot of Dawson's passing either, but he was quite a cunning little bogger with some rugby smarts.

To be clear, I'm not saying 3 errors is acceptable or that he's a good international scrum-half. However, the sad truth is that he is the best we have and does bring a lot of good things. The cries for Robson, Spencer, et al ignore the fact that those players make lots of little errors more regularly (or, in Spencer's case, a neat mix of both little and big errors) and hold their favourites to a different standard than Youngs.

Puja

[p/d]

Plus he has over 90 caps.

Mind you Care has near on 80 and he was overlooked in favour of a 30yr old journeyman with no caps

[Mellsblue]

I’m not sure you can just point to the number of caps and say it’s proof they’re a great/good player. The quality or paucity of talent competing for your Jersey is important. Dylan Hartley got 96 caps yet I think all would admit he was/is a limited player. That’s more than Steve Thompson and Martin Johnson. A lot of it has to do with the quality of your competition. Jamie Noon got 40+ and wouldn’t get near the squad at present. He’s also only 10 caps behind Greenwood yet there is a huge gulf in quality.

As with Farrell, Youngs does get overly criticised on here but, as with Farrell, it’s because we believe some are blind to his failings whilst other, possibly more talented, players sit watching his erratic passing from the bench/stands/sofa.

As for the NZ match, that is the best he’s played for a while. I’d suggest it’s because he was told to play a fast tempo and to get the ball into Ford’s hands rather than to think about what to do next. When he broke through he was an instinctive, running 9 but that seems to have been coached out of him or, at least, he’s been consistently asked to play to a different style.

[Digby]

It is very hard to scan the back three as a 9 looking for areas to kick and get anything close to a touch and away game. Conversely if you go all touch and away not only do you change your focus to eyes on the ball much more you lose a chance to kick in behind it even becomes difficult to snipe as you're looking at the ground (ball) at the base of the ruck and thus identifying space on the fringes (or up the middle) is less likely when it's on.

There's some stat around that the number of involvements in the game involving the 9 are up 40% on a decade ago, it's an information overload, and whilst the 10 can get help from the 12 and maybe others it's very hard to alleviate the workload on the 9, bar others realising when there's a need/chance for an auxiliary 9

[Banquo]

What am I forgetting about Thompson that made him better than George other than being a big carrier?

isnt that enough?

Not when comparing darts for a start.

George is hardly infallible. Thompson had his wobbles I grant you. Not sure there is that much between them on that front.

[Banquo]

My heart STILL tells me Bracken over Dawson tbh...

Not alone. Like a hooker needs to be able to throw in, a scrum half has to pass well.

Puja

Though that highly depends on what the pack wants and also what the FH wants. Passing as an isolated skill is massively overrated when it comes to SH play. As in most people think passing is the prime and be all skill when actually it is far from it. A scrum half is massively more than just a passer.

Seriously massively. Dawson won a load of caps despite ropy passing, because he kept defences honest. However, I don't see why you should have to trade skills off; everyone can improve their skills.

[Banquo]

It is very hard to scan the back three as a 9 looking for areas to kick and get anything close to a touch and away game. Conversely if you go all touch and away not only do you change your focus to eyes on the ball much more you lose a chance to kick in behind it even becomes difficult to snipe as you're looking at the ground (ball) at the base of the ruck and thus identifying space on the fringes (or up the middle) is less likely when it's on.

There's some stat around that the number of involvements in the game involving the 9 are up 40% on a decade ago, it's an information overload, and whilst the 10 can get help from the 12 and maybe others it's very hard to alleviate the workload on the 9, bar others realising when there's a need/chance for an auxiliary 9

No wonder 9's are so chippy with all this weight on their poor little shoulders.

[Beasties]

I’m not sure you can just point to the number of caps and say it’s proof they’re a great/good player. The quality or paucity of talent competing for your Jersey is important. Dylan Hartley got 96 caps yet I think all would admit he was/is a limited player. That’s more than Steve Thompson and Martin Johnson. A lot of it has to do with the quality of your competition. Jamie Noon got 40+ and wouldn’t get near the squad at present. He’s also only 10 caps behind Greenwood yet there is a huge gulf in quality.

As with Farrell, Youngs does get overly criticised on here but, as with Farrell, it’s because we believe some are blind to his failings whilst other, possibly more talented, players sit watching his erratic passing from the bench/stands/sofa.

As for the NZ match, that is the best he’s played for a while. I’d suggest it’s because he was told to play a fast tempo and to get the ball into Ford’s hands rather than to think about what to do next. When he broke through he was an instinctive, running 9 but that seems to have been coached out of him or, at least, he’s been consistently asked to play to a different style.

This.
Also, There were some terrific passes from Youngs on Sat, I particularly remember on off the left hand which long flat and accurate to a forward arriving at full tilt, and I thought wow Ben. It wasn't his passing that frustrated me it was the excellent periods of snappy speedy play from him and then the sauntering over to a ruck and then standing around wondering whether to finish his cup of tea or not, whilst watching his forwards run towards the gainline and having to stop.

I was a big Dawson fan in spite of his sometimes ropey passing so I'm not picking that out as a reason to not be a Youngs lover.

[Puja]

isnt that enough?

Not when comparing darts for a start.

George is hardly infallible. Thompson had his wobbles I grant you. Not sure there is that much between them on that front.

I think you're remembering Thompson fondly. He couldn't throw to the back of the 15 accurately and consistently and certainly couldn't've managed the long throws over the top which are possible in the modern game.

Puja

[Banquo]

Not when comparing darts for a start.

George is hardly infallible. Thompson had his wobbles I grant you. Not sure there is that much between them on that front.

I think you're remembering Thompson fondly. He couldn't throw to the back of the 15 accurately and consistently and certainly couldn't've managed the long throws over the top which are possible in the modern game.

Puja

Hmm. I'll respect your opinion . Arguably a bit of skills training could have enabled him to make those throws, after all he did become an international hooker within a few years of converting from back row....funnily enough, contrary to your memory, I seem to recall him becoming a bit less reliable as he got older, probably because the England sides he played in were nosediving . Bloody good player.

[Mellsblue]

I’m not sure you can just point to the number of caps and say it’s proof they’re a great/good player. The quality or paucity of talent competing for your Jersey is important. Dylan Hartley got 96 caps yet I think all would admit he was/is a limited player. That’s more than Steve Thompson and Martin Johnson. A lot of it has to do with the quality of your competition. Jamie Noon got 40+ and wouldn’t get near the squad at present. He’s also only 10 caps behind Greenwood yet there is a huge gulf in quality.

As with Farrell, Youngs does get overly criticised on here but, as with Farrell, it’s because we believe some are blind to his failings whilst other, possibly more talented, players sit watching his erratic passing from the bench/stands/sofa.

As for the NZ match, that is the best he’s played for a while. I’d suggest it’s because he was told to play a fast tempo and to get the ball into Ford’s hands rather than to think about what to do next. When he broke through he was an instinctive, running 9 but that seems to have been coached out of him or, at least, he’s been consistently asked to play to a different style.

This.
Also, There were some terrific passes from Youngs on Sat, I particularly remember on off the left hand which long flat and accurate to a forward arriving at full tilt, and I thought wow Ben. It wasn't his passing that frustrated me it was the excellent periods of snappy speedy play from him and then the sauntering over to a ruck and then standing around wondering whether to finish his cup of tea or not, whilst watching his forwards run towards the gainline and having to stop.

I was a big Dawson fan in spite of his sometimes ropey passing so I'm not picking that out as a reason to not be a Youngs lover.

Dawson moved the ball quickly, and it might’ve been wobbly ball but it normally went near the bread basket. Rewatched the 2003 final when the Eng v France match was cancelled....Gregan’s passing was light years ahead of Dawson’s. Youngs can dither and then chuck a ball at the receivers feet. That’s just bad.

[Puja]

George is hardly infallible. Thompson had his wobbles I grant you. Not sure there is that much between them on that front.

I think you're remembering Thompson fondly. He couldn't throw to the back of the 15 accurately and consistently and certainly couldn't've managed the long throws over the top which are possible in the modern game.

Puja

Hmm. I'll respect your opinion . Arguably a bit of skills training could have enabled him to make those throws, after all he did become an international hooker within a few years of converting from back row....funnily enough, contrary to your memory, I seem to recall him becoming a bit less reliable as he got older, probably because the England sides he played in were nosediving . Bloody good player.

Fair point; I doubt Thompson had access to the level of skills coaching (and in fact psychological help, given some of it was yips) that are available to modern players. I think you were mostly left to yourself with a ring on a post back in those days, and considered yourself a pampered international if you had a coach willing to stand at the other end and throw the balls back to you.

Puja

[Digby]

It is very hard to scan the back three as a 9 looking for areas to kick and get anything close to a touch and away game. Conversely if you go all touch and away not only do you change your focus to eyes on the ball much more you lose a chance to kick in behind it even becomes difficult to snipe as you're looking at the ground (ball) at the base of the ruck and thus identifying space on the fringes (or up the middle) is less likely when it's on.

There's some stat around that the number of involvements in the game involving the 9 are up 40% on a decade ago, it's an information overload, and whilst the 10 can get help from the 12 and maybe others it's very hard to alleviate the workload on the 9, bar others realising when there's a need/chance for an auxiliary 9

No wonder 9's are so chippy with all this weight on their poor little shoulders.

I could try and claim with everything that's been added to their shoulders they deserve to be, but it's not like they weren't chippy before. I do consider however you can broadly ask a 9 to run, pass or kick, and their focus will naturally be taken away from those other options by whatever the focus is. Sometimes their focus will work for them, sometimes not, and when they try to look at the whole you can get hesitation.

Smith for instance is the best 9 going, he's got a super pass and is very organised and fast getting the ball out. But against us that passing sent them sideways and he didn't take advantage of the strong kicking game he has (would have helped if they'd given him Ben from accounts to chase the kicks of course)

[Which Tyler]

I could try and claim with everything that's been added to their shoulders they deserve to be, but it's not like they weren't chippy before. I do consider however you can broadly ask a 9 to run, pass or kick, and their focus will naturally be taken away from those other options by whatever the focus is. Sometimes their focus will work for them, sometimes not, and when they try to look at the whole you can get hesitation.

As a 9...
What is this "focus" you talk of?


Ooooh, look, a cat

[Digby]

I could try and claim with everything that's been added to their shoulders they deserve to be, but it's not like they weren't chippy before. I do consider however you can broadly ask a 9 to run, pass or kick, and their focus will naturally be taken away from those other options by whatever the focus is. Sometimes their focus will work for them, sometimes not, and when they try to look at the whole you can get hesitation.

As a 9...
What is this "focus" you talk of?


Ooooh, look, a cat

You can have 3 main aims as a 9, look to kick, look to run, look to pass. Whichever you focus on will inform what you're looking at approaching the ball, basically backfield coverage, defence arrangement around the breakdown, or more focus on the ball itself. You can try to look at it all, but that will add some hesitation as it's more data to process. Nobody is looking at every option approaching each skill execution point, selecting the best option and doing so as quickly as possible with high accuracy and low error rates. Basically it's all a tradeoff

[Oakboy]

I could try and claim with everything that's been added to their shoulders they deserve to be, but it's not like they weren't chippy before. I do consider however you can broadly ask a 9 to run, pass or kick, and their focus will naturally be taken away from those other options by whatever the focus is. Sometimes their focus will work for them, sometimes not, and when they try to look at the whole you can get hesitation.

As a 9...
What is this "focus" you talk of?


Ooooh, look, a cat

You can have 3 main aims as a 9, look to kick, look to run, look to pass. Whichever you focus on will inform what you're looking at approaching the ball, basically backfield coverage, defence arrangement around the breakdown, or more focus on the ball itself. You can try to look at it all, but that will add some hesitation as it's more data to process. Nobody is looking at every option approaching each skill execution point, selecting the best option and doing so as quickly as possible with high accuracy and low error rates. Basically it's all a tradeoff

Don't the good SHs complete the thought process options before they get to the ball? Youngs seems to me to be reasonably useful if his mind is made up when he arrives at the breakdown. If he already knows his best option is to zip it out to the FH he does just that quite well. Unfortunately, that simple default action causes him problems when he tries to think too much. That first 15 minutes in the SF was just how he ought to play, for example, presumably because it was pre-programmed.

[p/d]

anyway, 2003......................what a year, what a side!!

Lets hope we will be looking back at the class of 2019 with similar affection even if we have a ropey 9

[Digby]

As a 9...
What is this "focus" you talk of?


Ooooh, look, a cat

You can have 3 main aims as a 9, look to kick, look to run, look to pass. Whichever you focus on will inform what you're looking at approaching the ball, basically backfield coverage, defence arrangement around the breakdown, or more focus on the ball itself. You can try to look at it all, but that will add some hesitation as it's more data to process. Nobody is looking at every option approaching each skill execution point, selecting the best option and doing so as quickly as possible with high accuracy and low error rates. Basically it's all a tradeoff

Don't the good SHs complete the thought process options before they get to the ball? Youngs seems to me to be reasonably useful if his mind is made up when he arrives at the breakdown. If he already knows his best option is to zip it out to the FH he does just that quite well. Unfortunately, that simple default action causes him problems when he tries to think too much. That first 15 minutes in the SF was just how he ought to play, for example, presumably because it was pre-programmed.

No, you don't have the time to be looking at everything. What you do hope the 9s game is a tactical and emotional understanding of the game so they're more often approaching the next phase with an idea of what they want to be looking at, but you can't actually look at everything. The tactical and emotional understanding of the player might well be overridden by a coach ordering a specific approach.

Take someone like Stringer who might in recent times be regarded as the best touch and away player, people often commented he wasn't a running threat and that allowed a defence to drift straight onto the 10. But part of the reason Strings would have been so good at what he did wasn't just his execution of the passing skills but that he was so focussed on the ball so he could progress to pass execution, he wouldn't have been looking at anything else, rarely anyway

Youngs is clearly being asked to look well beyond a touch and away game, rightly or wrongly, and it's worth keeping in mind and that there are tradeoffs.

I do think we wanted to attack NZ early, and actually I think Youngs was right to slow the game down a little. It was so fast to begin with, and playing continually at that pace probably would have gone to their advantage, Youngs slowed the game to a pace we were better able to partake in, and we still created chances

[Mikey Brown]

I've been saying it for ages, he can pass incredibly well but he passing from the floor just doesn't look natural to him.

[Banquo]

As a 9...
What is this "focus" you talk of?


Ooooh, look, a cat

You can have 3 main aims as a 9, look to kick, look to run, look to pass. Whichever you focus on will inform what you're looking at approaching the ball, basically backfield coverage, defence arrangement around the breakdown, or more focus on the ball itself. You can try to look at it all, but that will add some hesitation as it's more data to process. Nobody is looking at every option approaching each skill execution point, selecting the best option and doing so as quickly as possible with high accuracy and low error rates. Basically it's all a tradeoff

Don't the good SHs complete the thought process options before they get to the ball? Youngs seems to me to be reasonably useful if his mind is made up when he arrives at the breakdown. If he already knows his best option is to zip it out to the FH he does just that quite well. Unfortunately, that simple default action causes him problems when he tries to think too much. That first 15 minutes in the SF was just how he ought to play, for example, presumably because it was pre-programmed.

Generally I've always thought in any position its better to get to any situation quickly then make your decision and hope your skills let you execute well- thinking slows you down and the situation will have changed anyway!

[Digby]

You can have 3 main aims as a 9, look to kick, look to run, look to pass. Whichever you focus on will inform what you're looking at approaching the ball, basically backfield coverage, defence arrangement around the breakdown, or more focus on the ball itself. You can try to look at it all, but that will add some hesitation as it's more data to process. Nobody is looking at every option approaching each skill execution point, selecting the best option and doing so as quickly as possible with high accuracy and low error rates. Basically it's all a tradeoff

Don't the good SHs complete the thought process options before they get to the ball? Youngs seems to me to be reasonably useful if his mind is made up when he arrives at the breakdown. If he already knows his best option is to zip it out to the FH he does just that quite well. Unfortunately, that simple default action causes him problems when he tries to think too much. That first 15 minutes in the SF was just how he ought to play, for example, presumably because it was pre-programmed.

Generally I've always thought in any position its better to get to any situation quickly then make your decision and hope your skills let you execute well- thinking slows you down and the situation will have changed anyway!

There's a lot of truth in that because a bad decision executed quickly is typically better than a great decision enacted slowly. But at 9 especially you cannot only do that because so much of the field is screened from your view once you've arrived at the skill point. So you have to be looking at something as you approach the ball, and what you'll be looking at is informed by what your default as a player is, what the coach is telling you, and what your tactical/emotional read of the situation is telling you.

I wouldn't be surprised once Youngs slowed that game down on Saturday if he was thinking christ this is brilliant lets play, but knew his fowards would blow up and hadn't even faced a scrum yet. And actually that's another thing as a TDM, you can't just do what you want/think is right, you're trusted to do what's right for the team not you. Though it's also possible Youngs was blowing out of his arse such was the pace to begin with, and it stayed pretty quick even when it slowed down.

I feel I should add at this point my own game as a 9 did not reflect all the additional detail I'm talking about here, not even close. What the leading 9s are doing now I find astonishing

[p/d]

I blame Spiffy

[Banquo]

Don't the good SHs complete the thought process options before they get to the ball? Youngs seems to me to be reasonably useful if his mind is made up when he arrives at the breakdown. If he already knows his best option is to zip it out to the FH he does just that quite well. Unfortunately, that simple default action causes him problems when he tries to think too much. That first 15 minutes in the SF was just how he ought to play, for example, presumably because it was pre-programmed.

Generally I've always thought in any position its better to get to any situation quickly then make your decision and hope your skills let you execute well- thinking slows you down and the situation will have changed anyway!

There's a lot of truth in that because a bad decision executed quickly is typically better than a great decision enacted slowly. But at 9 especially you cannot only do that because so much of the field is screened from your view once you've arrived at the skill point. So you have to be looking at something as you approach the ball, and what you'll be looking at is informed by what your default as a player is, what the coach is telling you, and what your tactical/emotional read of the situation is telling you.

I wouldn't be surprised once Youngs slowed that game down on Saturday if he was thinking christ this is brilliant lets play, but knew his fowards would blow up and hadn't even faced a scrum yet. And actually that's another thing as a TDM, you can't just do what you want/think is right, you're trusted to do what's right for the team not you. Though it's also possible Youngs was blowing out of his arse such was the pace to begin with, and it stayed pretty quick even when it slowed down.

I feel I should add at this point my own game as a 9 did not reflect all the additional detail I'm talking about here, not even close. What the leading 9s are doing now I find astonishing

Ah- there's a difference between taking note of what is about you vs deciding what to do about it.