Eng v SA Match thread

[Banquo]

My SA relatives have been pleasantly ungloaty and very excited about the boost they hope the country will feel. Silver linings and all that

[Mellsblue]

Freezing on a big-match day is not unusual in the Jones era, for example.

Very good point.

[p/d]

Where do we go from here? Freezing on a big-match day is not unusual in the Jones era, for example. Preparation, selection, game-plan, lack of on-field leadership etc. all need serious consideration as a new four-year cycle begins.

The SF performance indicated potential achievement standards. The final showed serious flaws.

To be honest the NZ game came as a shock, not today’s. The biggest shame is we didn’t get to play France, then maybe the need to have started with Marler, Kruis and Wilson might have been more apparent - then we could have afforded Genge on the bench (maybe).

[Mellsblue]

My SA relatives have been pleasantly ungloaty and very excited about the boost they hope the country will feel. Silver linings and all that

Yep. Was good to see Kolisi lift the trophy.

[Banquo]

Freezing on a big-match day is not unusual in the Jones era, for example.

Very good point.

See Woodward era for 5 years

[p/d]

My SA relatives have been pleasantly ungloaty and very excited about the boost they hope the country will feel. Silver linings and all that

Yep. Was good to see Kolisi lift the trophy.

Not to undermine the importance of such a moment... but was that his wife?

[Mellsblue]

Freezing on a big-match day is not unusual in the Jones era, for example.

Very good point.

See Woodward era for 5 years

Difference being Jones was an off the shelf big match winning test coach.

[Mellsblue]

My SA relatives have been pleasantly ungloaty and very excited about the boost they hope the country will feel. Silver linings and all that

Yep. Was good to see Kolisi lift the trophy.

Not to undermine the importance of such a moment... but was that his wife?

On the podium with him? No.

[switchskier]

Where do we go from here? Freezing on a big-match day is not unusual in the Jones era, for example. Preparation, selection, game-plan, lack of on-field leadership etc. all need serious consideration as a new four-year cycle begins.

The SF performance indicated potential achievement standards. The final showed serious flaws.

The preparation sees to have been good and, for all of his flaws, Jones can certainly put together a good game plan on his day. What really struck me was England's inability to adapt when plan A wasn't working and that is a lack of onfield leadership (maybe Lancaster was onto something when talking about minimum number of days needed).

Everyone knew that SA would rush in defence but there wasn't a single chip kick, grubber or even winger cutting an inside line off 9/10 in that game to try counter it. Instead England kept trying the same thing, they didn't give SA anything to think about. Calling the bench finishers is apt for this team as they come on and play the same way, the bench isn't really used to try change the dynamic or provide a plan B.

[Banquo]

Very good point.

See Woodward era for 5 years

Difference being Jones was an off the shelf big match winning test coach.

True so what does that say?

[Mellsblue]

See Woodward era for 5 years

Difference being Jones was an off the shelf big match winning test coach.

True so what does that say?

We’re doomed. Dooooomed.

[Beasties]

How did we produce a performance like last week's and then a performance like this? It's the nature of team sport, there's no explanation for it, it just happens inexplicably sometimes.

I think our actual level is somewhere between last week and this week. If we'd been told we'd finish 2nd before the WC started I don't think anyone would've been too unhappy. Just a surprise it was SA that beat us and not NZ. Today we lacked any sort of leadership, and by God we needed some leadership. Itoje was the only one I saw who refused to be rattled by what was going on all around him. Reckon it's time he was made captain. It's a shame he hadn't been made it a while ago and he might have been able to do something about that shitshow.

[Oakboy]

See Woodward era for 5 years

Difference being Jones was an off the shelf big match winning test coach.

True so what does that say?

Maybe, it just says that Jones has built the core of a good unit but lacks the nous to sustain the performance level when the pressure is on. Solid foundations may have been laid but, on the day, he lost. As ever, getting beaten by a better side is fine. Losing a big match when the team does not turn up is not.

[Oakboy]

How did we produce a performance like last week's and then a performance like this? It's the nature of team sport, there's no explanation for it, it just happens inexplicably sometimes.

I think our actual level is somewhere between last week and this week. If we'd been told we'd finish 2nd before the WC started I don't think anyone would've been too unhappy. Just a surprise it was SA that beat us and not NZ. Today we lacked any sort of leadership, and by God we needed some leadership. Itoje was the only one I saw who refused to be rattled by what was going on all around him. Reckon it's time he was made captain. It's a shame he hadn't been made it a while ago and he might have been able to do something about that shitshow.

I certainly agree about Itoje.

[Danno]

Agree on Itoje, but it's only fairly recently that he calmed down and stopped screaming at every decision that went our way, which would not have been a good look.

[Oakboy]

Agree on Itoje, but it's only fairly recently that he calmed down and stopped screaming at every decision that went our way, which would not have been a good look.

True but he's well set up to demand the shirt for the next four years and has matured at just the right time.

[Danno]

Yes, totally

[Beasties]

Agree on Itoje, but it's only fairly recently that he calmed down and stopped screaming at every decision that went our way, which would not have been a good look.

Good point and as Dors said he's matured superbly lately. I'd forgotten how much of an annoyance he was in that regard.

[morepork]

Hard luck gents. Really thought you were on after hammering us last week. Moving forward, Shirley it's time to put this Farrell nonsense to bed now?

[Mellsblue]

There is no way they will take the captaincy off Farrell. That said, I’d like Itoje as capt. Very rarely has a bad game, guaranteed his place, eloquent and a track record of winning things as captain.

[Mellsblue]

Hard luck gents. Really thought you were on after hammering us last week. Moving forward, Shirley it's time to put this Farrell nonsense to bed now?

You joking? Did you not see the way he sneered at the haka.

[Beasties]

There is no way they will take the captaincy off Farrell. That said, I’d like Itoje as capt. Very rarely has a bad game, guaranteed his place, eloquent and a track record of winning things as captain.

You could see in his eyes that he was conatantly thinking how he could salvage the situation. There's no doubt he's an intelligent fella. He's nailed into the team in a way that makes it a no brainer to take the captaincy off Farrell. I'm sure if he'd been captain he'd have reined Youngs in and avoided that ridiculous tap pen. It's all academic now but I see him as being that Jonno type of captain that would lead from the front and never disappear from view like Farrell did today.

[Digby]

That was so bad I'd almost say put it to one side and look to the next game. I don't think I can remember a game we had so little ball, even when losing badly we normally get periods of possession albeit limited to slow ball

[16th man]

How did we produce a performance like last week's and then a performance like this?

Without wanting to scapegoat, I can't remember ever seeing a better illustration of "reversion to the mean" than Ben Youngs' performances from last week to this.

[Digby]

How did we produce a performance like last week's and then a performance like this?

Without wanting to scapegoat, I can't remember ever seeing a better illustration of "reversion to the mean" than Ben Youngs' performances from last week to this.

I really don't think I'd start with a halfback when looking at where that game went wrong. Albeit yes even with the scraps possession we were afforded we made bad decisions, panicked and both exited and executed badly.