Post World Cup Priorities

[Scrumhead]

I know we have the ‘England going forward thread’ but that seems to have gone off on all sorts of tangents.

As I’ve said elsewhere, I see the 2020 6 Nations as a great opportunity to get back on the horse with the upheaval across the other sides creating a good opportunity for a Grand Slam.

As I see it, we have 3 priorities:

1) Find a new Scrum Half pairing

The final should be Youngs’ last England game. There have been some good performances, but too many bad ones to count. He is consistently one of our worst performers and needs to be moved on.

Heinz was only ever a stop gap and is not an investment for the future.

The obvious combination is Spencer and Robson. Both should have had more opportunities long before now, but this is an opportunity to wipe that slate clean and give them the chance to show what they can do. I’d go with Spencer as the starter - partially because I think his game management is better and partially because I see Robson as more impactful from the bench.

Mitchell looked like hot favourite to join them at the end of last season but his injury is a set back. Randall and Maunder are worth keeping an eye on and Uren and Taylor are my wildcards.

2) Find a fullback

All of Daly’s shortcomings as a fullback were cruelly exposed in the final. He’s never looked comfortable there and the odd positive foray in to the line in attack does not outweigh the fact that he’s a bombscare under the high ball and a weak defender. There is the option to return him to the wing, but at the moment, I’d have him in the 23 shirt at best.

The simplest (and probably best) short term solution is to switch Watson to fullback which would allow us to bring Nowell, Cokanasiga or whoever is in the best form in to the other wing berth.

The problem is there aren’t many other options. Brown would have been a good option for the World Cup but is too old to be in serious contention. Goode wouldn’t be picked but is getting on too.

Furbank is looking good at Saints but my longer term hope is Malins. Hopefully, he gets over his injuries quickly and had a chance to compete at Sarries. I think it’s unlikely he’ll leapfrog Farrell but I’d like to see him taking on Goode’s role as ‘second playmaker’ more often.

3) Plan B at 8

Billy has been out of sorts and while I can accept the argument that his presence drags in defenders etc. that alone isn’t enough to make him bulletproof.

With his various injuries we’ve had opportunities to develop a plan B that we haven’t really taken. Although, I actually thought our back row looked good with Wilson at 8 in last season’s AIs. Obviously he’s not in Billy’s league as a carrier but he brings lots of other valuable qualities to the table. In the short term, I’d be tempted to give Billy a ‘rest’ and play Wilson in the 6N.

Mercer and Dombrandt are the longer term bets. I’d argue that Dombrandt is the more talented of the two, but he is very raw and is a season or two away from being fully test-ready IMO. He needs to work on his nuts and bolts at the ruck, maul and breakdown but with time and patience, I think he will be excellent, but les not rush him.

Mercer may have blotted his copy book against Japan but has a skill set that makes him a strong contender - notably that he’s a good lineout option as well as a good carrier and more than decent at the breakdown. The fact that he can capably cover 6, 7 and 8 is an added bonus.

I’d be interested to get board consensus. Would these be your priorities too?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Wouldn’t disagree. Would add midfield to the mix if we’re looking at positions.

On scrum half I don’t really see Spencer as an upgrade or even level if I’m honest. There’s several good scrum halves but I’m not seeing a standout candidate. They all have pluses and plenty of minuses along with the incumbents. The younger options have lots of potential and will hopefully get plenty of club time to take that forward.

I’m struggling with Dombrandt. He’s dynamic but I think a good distance off international level yet. That said this is only his second season. If he can build upon last season and take his all round game up then there’s no reason why he shouldn’t be challenging. Mercer looks a better fit at present, but is a very different player to Billy. That’s not a bad thing but is it what Eddie Jones wants. Who knows.

Watson at fullback seems obvious to me. It is interesting that Slade was his default backup, but that could also be down somewhat to the makeup of bench options.

[Puja]

On scrum half I don’t really see Spencer as an upgrade or even level if I’m honest. There’s several good scrum halves but I’m not seeing a standout candidate. They all have pluses and plenty of minuses along with the incumbents. The younger options have lots of potential and will hopefully get plenty of club time to take that forward.

I'm with EP on this - Spencer is not the answer; he's just a new set of questions. Same goes for Robson, to a lesser extent.

If I were Jones, I'd plump for 3 or 4 of whomever I thought the most promising young 9s were and just invest in them early. Maybe Randall, Maunder, Mitchell, and one of Uren or Taylor. I expect White will be involved, but I don't rate him myself.

Puja

[Beasties]

If Eddie does continue, for a while or further, I'm not sure he'll alter the squad much in the short term anyway. He's shown that he's happy to stick with what he's got and work on things slowly, too slowly for me.

I'd put good money on Youngs still being our SH for the 6Ns and would also place a flutter on Heinz still being in the squad for that tournament sadly. He's said in the past that he doesn't like three SHs in a squad as it varies service too much in practice sessions (and Youngs' service is varied enough thank you). I'm fairly certain that he'll continue try to bash Daly's round peg into a square hole in spite of the evidence that he's not gonna manage it. That said, Watson might get the odd 20 mins at the end of games as an "experiment".

He's a stubborn and contrary sod hence my scepticism. I could give a list of players I'd like to see involved but Eddie won't be interested. The one thing I'd like to see more than anything else is for the captaincy to pass to Itoje. He's matured right in front of our eyes in this tournament and it seems an absolute no brainer to me for him to now become captain. Farrell will obv be VC, which would be a much better role for him if we really must have him in the team.

[twitchy]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... -cup-final


"Next summer, Jones leads England on a two-Test summer tour of Japan and a significant proportion of the World Cup squad will be left at home. Under an agreement between the RFU, Premiership Rugby and the players’ union, any of the 32 players who make 20 or more appearances in the 2019-20 season is not allowed to go to Japan.

“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.

“But I’m so proud of the players, the way they’ve prepared, the way they’ve worked. They’re great ambassadors for the sport and great ambassadors for England and I’m disappointed there’s such a negative attitude about our performance. We’ve just taken a team that couldn’t get out of the pools and just got beaten in the final and there’s all this negativity about their performance.”



Got to feel for kyle:

Sinckler said “words can’t do justice” to how he is feeling after suffering a head injury in the final in an accidental collision with his teammate Itoje. It proved a decisive moment with England proceeding to concede six scrum penalties thereafter.

“Words can’t do justice to how I’m feeling right now,” the prop wrote on social media. “The biggest moment in my life and not even being able to get a chance to shoot my shot. Sport is cruel but we can never let adversity get the better of us.

[Scrumhead]

On scrum half I don’t really see Spencer as an upgrade or even level if I’m honest. There’s several good scrum halves but I’m not seeing a standout candidate. They all have pluses and plenty of minuses along with the incumbents. The younger options have lots of potential and will hopefully get plenty of club time to take that forward.

I'm with EP on this - Spencer is not the answer; he's just a new set of questions. Same goes for Robson, to a lesser extent.

If I were Jones, I'd plump for 3 or 4 of whomever I thought the most promising young 9s were and just invest in them early. Maybe Randall, Maunder, Mitchell, and one of Uren or Taylor. I expect White will be involved, but I don't rate him myself.

Puja

Spencer and Robson are far from perfect but I’d challenge EP’s suggestion that neither are ‘even level’ with Youngs. I’d say they’re at least level, potentially better which is why I’d give them the 6 Nations to show what they can do.

Right now, they are our best options.

Maunder is the only other one starting and TBH, I don’t find him particularly impressive. He’s OK and has a decent pass but I don’t really get the excitement around him?

Mitchell was looking great but is injured for the foreseeable and is unlikely to have a enough time to impress prior to the 6 Nations.

I really like Randall, but he isn’t starting for Bristol at the moment so I’m not sure whether that justifies investing in him at test level. Also, he is tiny. While that hasn’t held him back so far, I do wonder whether test rugby may be a bridge too far.

[Peej]

Is Maunder even going to be first choice at Exeter though? Isn't Nic White still around? Or has he moved back to Australia?

To add to the OP - I think we need to find a 12. Or rather, we need to find a style of play, and then find a 12 that suits that. We either have a big unit that will truck it up the middle, allowing us to manoeuvre our way around the field so that we can put the squeeze on with a ruthless, bruising pack. Or we need to find a ball player that helps us unleash the speed we have out wide. Either way, Farrell isn't the answer at 12, but he is currently the best one available - or so it would seem.

I'd like to see Nowell at 15, though that might be an issue with Hogg at Chiefs now.

[Tigersman]

Well potentially getting a new coaches might be an big thing.
Borthwick heavily rumoured off to Tigers
Wisemantel sort of rumoured to be potentially going back home to Aus
Hatley off to Bath

Now I would pick from my fantasy hat
Vesty as backs coach
Stankovich as scrum coach (Please for the love of that is all holy noooooo)
Sanderson forwards coach
and bring in a specialist lineout coach.

Players wise
9 is the biggest.
Then for me Tighthead prop.
Outside of Sinckler we have no one of experience that is really top test standard. We have some very good young players but they need to tried at test level.
Same goes with 8 and 15.

Also worried about 12 stocks.
A lot of good 13's coming up not many out and out 12's though.

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. 12 is absolutely a priority, I just considered the other three to be more pressing given that Farrell and Tuilagi can play at 12 with some degree of effectiveness.

I really like Nick Tompkins. He’s got a bit of everything and seems to keep getting steadily better.

On the tighthead front, Will Stuart is looking good, as is Joe Heyes, but it’s very early days.

Re. Maunder, Nic White was on the bench last weekend and is off at the end of the season. I’m not sure how Baxter will manage that with Townsend also back to fitness.

[SixAndAHalf]

I agree with all of the points in the OP as well as the point around finding the correct midfield balance.

Above anything else, I hope the focus is on results with the target of going into the 2023 World Cup as favourites. In the previous cycle dips in form could be excused as Eddie experimented and worked to bring the base level of the squad up to standard following the poor showing in 2015. However now we have the strong base so should be focussed on playing winning rugby so we are accustomed to beating our rivals by the time 2023 comes around.

In this regard I am not encouraged by Eddie's quote that there will be a "new team made".

[Epaminondas Pules]

I think that’s reading a bit too much into the term of a new team. There will be some players go and some new come in. Injuries. Loss of form. The core will remain the core of today.

[Mikey Brown]

I haven't got a clue what we do at 12 except hope Devoto somehow turns it around. Is Tompkins more of a 12 now? Thought he was a 13? Similar with Lozowski, who seems to have gone off the boil entirely. The Slade at 12 dream doesn't seem likely either.

Thinking about the starting centres in the prem there are a lot of average or 1-dimensional English players and a good few non-EQPs.

Eastmond, Hill, 12T were all touted as future England players but are surely never troubling the England coaches again? A shame if Devoto goes the same way. Feels like he's been around forever, can do everything you'd want from a 12 but maybe not fancied to do it at the extra pace/intensity?

Are James or Redpath any good?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Devoto just needs a clear run. He looked to be flourishing until injury put paid to it.

Redpath has loads of potential but very raw. I don’t think James will trouble the selectors too much.

Tompkins can play either 12 or 13 and for me should get a squad place to see if he can continue his growth as a player. I really rate Tompkins.

[Tigersman]

Luke James will very much trouble the selectors IMO.

If Sale don’t leave him on the side for redpath

[Which Tyler]

Is it too late to try Slade at 12?
Though I can see why Devoto plays there when fit - as he isn't...

[SixAndAHalf]

I think that’s reading a bit too much into the term of a new team. There will be some players go and some new come in. Injuries. Loss of form. The core will remain the core of today.

I hope so - that is natural.

I want us to be winning regularly and hopefully get a couple of Grand Slams in the next four years, bringing new players into a dominant team, and therefore I won't be as forgiving of the "building for the World Cup" excuse for poor performances.

[SixAndAHalf]

I haven't got a clue what we do at 12 except hope Devoto somehow turns it around. Is Tompkins more of a 12 now? Thought he was a 13? Similar with Lozowski, who seems to have gone off the boil entirely. The Slade at 12 dream doesn't seem likely either.

Thinking about the starting centres in the prem there are a lot of average or 1-dimensional English players and a good few non-EQPs.

Eastmond, Hill, 12T were all touted as future England players but are surely never troubling the England coaches again? A shame if Devoto goes the same way. Feels like he's been around forever, can do everything you'd want from a 12 but maybe not fancied to do it at the extra pace/intensity?

Are James or Redpath any good?

I think Mallinder has all the tools to be great there - all he lacked previously in my opinion was the mental side. Boyd has shown he can maximise talent so I am optimistic on that front.

[Mikey Brown]

That's a good shout. Forgot about him. It's a very big 'if' though. The amount of shit that Hodgson/Cipriani got I can't remember them ever looking as wet as Mallinder.

He might take a whole season to get back up to speed and even make the Saints side, but Boyd does look like he's having a real positive affect.

[twitchy]

Can you imagine mallinder trying to tackle the boks on saturday? He will never be a test player.

[Timbo]

Can you imagine mallinder trying to tackle the boks on saturday? He will never be a test player.

He’ll never be an international 12, I agree with that.

I’m interested to see what happens with him at 15 under Boyd. Across the semi finals and final fullbacks were making an average of 3 tackles per game, so considering his all round skill set I wouldn’t rule him out.

[Adam_P]

As previously mentioned, the defensive softness was all mental with Mallinder. I believe a lot of the time when he was playing the season before last, when he really stood out as being a wet flannel, he had some kind of shoulder issue too. If he can be coached into enjoying the physical side of things defensively, at 6 foot 5 and 17 stone with all the skills of a fly half, he should be a very good option at 12. Agree with Mikey that is a very big 'if' though. We shall hopefully find out soon, he is due back this side of Christmas.

[Adam_P]

Can you imagine mallinder trying to tackle the boks on saturday? He will never be a test player.

He’ll never be an international 12, I agree with that.

I’m interested to see what happens with him at 15 under Boyd. Across the semi finals and final fullbacks were making an average of 3 tackles per game, so considering his all round skill set I wouldn’t rule him out.

I can see Furbank pretty well locking down the 15 shirt, thus reducing the chance of Mallinder getting so much meaningful game time there.

[Stom]

As previously mentioned, the defensive softness was all mental with Mallinder. I believe a lot of the time when he was playing the season before last, when he really stood out as being a wet flannel, he had some kind of shoulder issue too. If he can be coached into enjoying the physical side of things defensively, at 6 foot 5 and 17 stone with all the skills of a fly half, he should be a very good option at 12. Agree with Mikey that is a very big 'if' though. We shall hopefully find out soon, he is due back this side of Christmas.

Don’t rush him back, then!

[jngf]

Aside from suggestions mentioned I would add:

1.We need to find more physically imposing locks rather than relying on shear athleticism alone - for me Lawes and Ewels and even Kruis are all a bit lightweight as starters - Itoje may be advised to consider challenging Billy’s berth at both Sarries and test level Launchbury has the right build but needs to get his mojo back and become a bit fiercer.

2. We need a more powerful blindside than Tom Curry imo - I’d be happy for him to switch roles with Underhill - though I also think Ludlum, S Simmonds,Wilson, Willis, B Curry, Kvesic and Jack Clifford (injury caveat accepted) could all still bring something fresh to flank combinations

[twitchy]

Aside from suggestions mentioned I would add:

1.We need to find more physically imposing locks rather than relying on shear athleticism alone - for me Lawes and Ewels and even Kruis are all a bit lightweight as starters - Itoje may be advised to consider challenging Billy’s berth at both Sarries and test level Launchbury has the right build but needs to get his mojo back and become a bit fiercer.

Pie in the sky stuff mate. Where do you suggest we "find" these players? Look behind the sofa?