Where to go - players leaving Sarries

[Puja]

Given the current chatter in the news about "Where can Sarries players go?" and "How can they be fitted into caps elsewhere/Can they play in France?", I thought to have a look at who actually is likely to leave.

Firstly, with it being a Lions year, the following need top class rugby to stake their claim (not including Williams who has already gone):

Mako
George
Itoje
BillyV
Fazlet
Daly

Secondly, there are the fringe internationals, who might suffer from losing their place/chance of earning a place in squads with a year out of the limelight:

Carre
Singleton
Koch
Kruis
Earl
Spencer
Lozowski
Tompkins

That would still leave Saracens with a team to take on the Championship of:

Barrington/Adams-Hale
Woolstencroft
Figallo/Ibuanokpe
Isiekwe/Kpoku
Skelton/Kpoku II
Clark
Refell
Wray

Wiggy/Day/Whiteley
Malins
Lewington
Barritt
Taylor
Maitland
Goode

I think they'll keep a lot of players like Goode, Skelton, and Figallo, as internationals are not a priority for them for varying reasons and the money at Saracens will still be very good (and the camaraderie is "something special").

On the leavers, I suspect we can assume that Welsh regions will find room for Carre and Tompkins if they are going to leave (as they'd become ineligible if they signed with another English team) and some French side will find a use for Koch.

TBC...

[Mellsblue]

Are we talking permanently on loan? One year or two year exodus?

Regardless, I suspect Skelton will go back to Oz, Maitland and/or Taylor to Scotland and, if he gets capped, Tompkins to Wales. Those, plus Williams, off the books and they must be there or thereabouts on the salary cap, erm, issue.

[fivepointer]

Cant see Koch, Skelton, Maitland and Taylor staying and playing in the Championship. Tompkins will surely move to the Pro14 as he seems destined to be capped by Wales soon. Carre will join him. I think Malins might move on too. Isiekwe has a difficult call to make as does Joel Kpoku.
Realistically if you are a current international, or have ambitions to become one, you will not want to spend time playing 2nd tier rugby even for a season.
There might be openings for some players to go out on loan but that wont cover everyone.
Think it's clear that the squad will be broken up and that probably a dozen or more players are likely to leave the club for good.

[Mellsblue]

Joel Kpoku to Saints may be revived.

[Puja]

So looking at the Lions claimants:

Mako
George
Itoje
BillyV
Fazlet
Daly

If we assume that the first list will all ideally want to play HEC next year to maximise their Lions odds (and assume that the RFU will not consider this exceptional circumstances), then the current top 6 are Exeter, Saints, Glaws, Sale, Bristol, and Bath, with the latter two barely hanging onto those positions by the skin of their teeth. To take them in order:

Exeter do not need a hooker, loosehead, lock, 8, fly-half, or full-back. I mean, if you offered them any of those for free, I'm sure they could find use for them, but those are strong areas for the squad and they already have marquees in Gray and Hogg. So they're not likely.

Northampton could use George with the retirement of Hartley and he would work well with their lineout of Ludlam and Lawes. I'd imagine they wouldn't mind an upgrade at 8 as well (Harrison can easily switch to 6), but the stated reason for BillyV leaving Wasps was that the Vunipolae hated playing against each other, so I'd imagine that they are a package deal and Saints don't need to bend their cap to bring another loosehead in.

Gloucester, on the other hands, could use a Vunipolae package deal. Loosehead and 8 are areas where the infusion of a world class player could kick them into being a real title contender. They might want Daly as a wing, but I'm not sure that's a huge priority for them.

Sale don't need any of the forwards really, given their South African buying spree. A case could be made for Itoje, but I don't know it's a priority once LdJ is fit. They're the first club who might be interested in Farrell though, although the price would have to be tight as they have got some half-decent 10s already.

Bristol could use Mako, Itoje, Fazlet, and Daly, and Pat Lam's already said his phone's been ringing off the hook with super-keen agents. I'd call them favourites to take Mako back, except that they have no room for Billy currently. Maybe if Billy does go to Lyon?

And onto Bath, but they're in the top six on points difference, so hardly a safe bet for European rugby. They would take any and all of those named though.

Of the other clubs, I'd say a dark horse could be Newcastle. Yes, they are the only side guaranteed not to be in the top 6, but they have cap space, a rich owner who enjoys his club as a prestige project, and they need reinforcements. They could feasibly bring in 4-5 Saracens and, while there's no ERC, taking a promoted team to near the top of the table would be a potent advertisement for the Lions.

Puja

[Puja]

Cant see Koch, Skelton, Maitland and Taylor staying and playing in the Championship. Tompkins will surely move to the Pro14 as he seems destined to be capped by Wales soon. Carre will join him. I think Malins might move on too. Isiekwe has a difficult call to make as does Joel Kpoku.
Realistically if you are a current international, or have ambitions to become one, you will not want to spend time playing 2nd tier rugby even for a season.
There might be openings for some players to go out on loan but that wont cover everyone.
Think it's clear that the squad will be broken up and that probably a dozen or more players are likely to leave the club for good.

Why not Skelton? He's already shown that he prefers the Saracens experience/money more than playing international rugby, so he might stay.

Isiekwe, Malins and Kpoku I think would do well to stay. This is a fast track to being regulars and while, yes it's a season in the Champ, they were previously willing to spend a season on the bench rather than move.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

So looking at the Lions claimants:

Mako
George
Itoje
BillyV
Fazlet
Daly

With 9 clubs already spending up to the salary cap - they'll have a little room as not all of next year's deals will have been completed - but would they have enough room to take on a Lions claimant? Might depend on the little details - how hard they've been courting new players, full contract or heads of agreement, "option of 3rd year" etc.
I would have thought that list would be the preserve of LI / Wuss / Newcastle, or triggering "exceptional circumstances" by remaining Saracens players, on a season-long loan overseas.

Of course, there's always the possibility that next year's salary cap increases by say £400k; and each of those 6 players finds a top-6 English club...

[Stom]

Cant see Koch, Skelton, Maitland and Taylor staying and playing in the Championship. Tompkins will surely move to the Pro14 as he seems destined to be capped by Wales soon. Carre will join him. I think Malins might move on too. Isiekwe has a difficult call to make as does Joel Kpoku.
Realistically if you are a current international, or have ambitions to become one, you will not want to spend time playing 2nd tier rugby even for a season.
There might be openings for some players to go out on loan but that wont cover everyone.
Think it's clear that the squad will be broken up and that probably a dozen or more players are likely to leave the club for good.

Why not Skelton? He's already shown that he prefers the Saracens experience/money more than playing international rugby, so he might stay.

Isiekwe, Malins and Kpoku I think would do well to stay. This is a fast track to being regulars and while, yes it's a season in the Champ, they were previously willing to spend a season on the bench rather than move.

Puja

If Isiekwe, Malins and Kpoku sign on to only find that Itoje, Kruis, and Farrell are also staying, just leaving on loan for a season...

If I were them, I'd leave unless guaranteed to be given a real chance to nail the shirt. Not just playing as stop gaps for a season in the champ...

[Oakboy]

I'll be intrigued to see how many sign permanent deals elsewhere. Which motivations will rule: greed, trophy aspirations, international hopes or old-fashioned club loyalty.

[Puja]

Cant see Koch, Skelton, Maitland and Taylor staying and playing in the Championship. Tompkins will surely move to the Pro14 as he seems destined to be capped by Wales soon. Carre will join him. I think Malins might move on too. Isiekwe has a difficult call to make as does Joel Kpoku.
Realistically if you are a current international, or have ambitions to become one, you will not want to spend time playing 2nd tier rugby even for a season.
There might be openings for some players to go out on loan but that wont cover everyone.
Think it's clear that the squad will be broken up and that probably a dozen or more players are likely to leave the club for good.

Why not Skelton? He's already shown that he prefers the Saracens experience/money more than playing international rugby, so he might stay.

Isiekwe, Malins and Kpoku I think would do well to stay. This is a fast track to being regulars and while, yes it's a season in the Champ, they were previously willing to spend a season on the bench rather than move.

Puja

If Isiekwe, Malins and Kpoku sign on to only find that Itoje, Kruis, and Farrell are also staying, just leaving on loan for a season...

If I were them, I'd leave unless guaranteed to be given a real chance to nail the shirt. Not just playing as stop gaps for a season in the champ...

Good point, well made.

Puja

[Gloskarlos]

From a Glaws perspective I would be amazed if after all probable jiggerypokery we could afford any more than one player. Which rules out the Vunipolae unfortunately, nail on head Puja, Mako would be exactly what we need. We also need a good hooker so George would seem to be the only realistic option. We have a few decent enough players covering the 8 berth and we definitely don’t need Daly at wing, not positions of weakness really.

Fazlet is bizarrely the toughest to place out of that pile.....

[Oakboy]

From a Glaws perspective I would be amazed if after all probable jiggerypokery we could afford any more than one player. Which rules out the Vunipolae unfortunately, nail on head Puja, Mako would be exactly what we need. We also need a good hooker so George would seem to be the only realistic option. We have a few decent enough players covering the 8 berth and we definitely don’t need Daly at wing, not positions of weakness really.

Fazlet is bizarrely the toughest to place out of that pile.....

We think - but maybe the other clubs will agree with Jones, punditry, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all . . . .

I won't hold my breath, though.

[Digby]

If I was Exeter I'd be thrilled to have Farrell. There's maybe only Glaws who have Cips and Atkinson/36 and Saints that look poor fits for Farrell. He really is a very good player, and clearly excellent in a squad

[jimKRFC]

At 8 Bristol have Hughes, Crane (retiring) and Hamilton (end of season). So Mako and Billy would be useful.

Guess it depends if the Sinckler rumour is true.

[Stom]

If I was Exeter I'd be thrilled to have Farrell. There's maybe only Glaws who have Cips and Atkinson/36 and Saints that look poor fits for Farrell. He really is a very good player, and clearly excellent in a squad

I wouldn’t want him at Quins.

[Oakboy]

If I was Exeter I'd be thrilled to have Farrell. There's maybe only Glaws who have Cips and Atkinson/36 and Saints that look poor fits for Farrell. He really is a very good player, and clearly excellent in a squad

Farrell would simply not fit at Exeter, IMO. His ego would wreck their ethos.

[Danno]

I tend to agree he wouldn't work at Exeter but for all of the flack Farrell deserves I don't think he's ever been guilty of an overinflated ego. It's certainly never struck me as trait of his in post-match press conferences, interviews or any other public appearance I've seen. On the field he - for example - takes the England kicks instead of Ford but that's always struck me as a coaching decision. Happy to be proven wrong on this.

[Timbo]

Reckon they keep most, if not all of their established England ‘stars’. There will be creative solutions to give them meaningful rugby (Japan, Super rugby, ‘friendly’s etc) as well as England test matches to put them in the frame for the Lions. Got to remember that it’s not just a rugby decision, but these players have wives, girlfriends, boyfriends (?), kids, schools, businesses etc, and for the sake of 1 season (staying on their big contracts) I can see a lot staying put.

Probably a tranche of players on the next level down, most of whom will leave- Tompkins and Carre to Wales, Lewington, Lozowski off somewhere to push for England, Rhodes, Figallo, Maitland as they’re expensive luxuries. Taylor I could see staying, he’s been at Sarries a long time and I seem to recall them giving him a 3 year deal in the middle of 20 month injury hiatus. He may want to repay that loyalty.

Koch and Skelton I could maybe see agreeing to stay, but also think that Sarries do actually need to make cuts somewhere.

I’d expect Singleton, Isiekwe, Kpoku, Earl, Spencer and Malins to attract most Prem interests for permanent deals. From a Saracens perspective I struggle to see what pitch you can make to those players. Every club in the country should be falling over themselves to pick up an Isiekwe, Earl or Malins at this point in their careers.

The non England academy graduates and long time servants I expect will mostly stay.

[Digby]

Sarries lose how many millions a year? From which they offload what, Skelton, Williams, Koch, but also take a massive hit to their revenue streams.

Is Wray going to fund this after being called now and forever known as a lying cheat?

[Timbo]

Sarries lose how many millions a year? From which they offload what, Skelton, Williams, Koch, but also take a massive hit to their revenue streams.

Is Wray going to fund this after being called now and forever known as a lying cheat?

Who knows, but the money doesn’t seem to be much of an issue for him. He must have put tens of millions into the club over the years, yet is worth about £100 million more today than he was 10 years ago.

[Big D]

I think it will depend if they are allowed back in after only 1 year of complying with the cap.

[Timbo]

I think it will depend if they are allowed back in after only 1 year of complying with the cap.

They will be.

[Digby]

Sarries lose how many millions a year? From which they offload what, Skelton, Williams, Koch, but also take a massive hit to their revenue streams.

Is Wray going to fund this after being called now and forever known as a lying cheat?

Who knows, but the money doesn’t seem to be much of an issue for him. He must have put tens of millions into the club over the years, yet is worth about £100 million more today than he was 10 years ago.

Still, he's going to have to fund them now with the likely notion they'll be stuck in the pack even if they do come back

[Mikey Brown]

I tend to agree he wouldn't work at Exeter but for all of the flack Farrell deserves I don't think he's ever been guilty of an overinflated ego. It's certainly never struck me as trait of his in post-match press conferences, interviews or any other public appearance I've seen. On the field he - for example - takes the England kicks instead of Ford but that's always struck me as a coaching decision. Happy to be proven wrong on this.

It's a funny one, where from the outside it's very easy to conflate the two. I think you're right though and he is just absurdly competitive. He actually seems humble enough when you hear him off the pitch, but some of his antics in the heat of a game do make him (to some) very unlikable. I think he's a really good player, just 10-15% short of the hype he receives.

The line-kicking thing must be an EJ thing, but god knows why he made that decision. The problem for me is (it appears) a loud and decisive voice usually gets priority over any other, even if he doesn't have the decision-making, execution, consistency etc. to always back it up.

I can't work out if it is a testament to the character/togetherness of Saracens that I can't picture many of their key players at other clubs, or if it's just because they've played the 'everyone is against us' card so much.

[Oakboy]

I tend to agree he wouldn't work at Exeter but for all of the flack Farrell deserves I don't think he's ever been guilty of an overinflated ego. It's certainly never struck me as trait of his in post-match press conferences, interviews or any other public appearance I've seen. On the field he - for example - takes the England kicks instead of Ford but that's always struck me as a coaching decision. Happy to be proven wrong on this.

It's a funny one, where from the outside it's very easy to conflate the two. I think you're right though and he is just absurdly competitive. He actually seems humble enough when you hear him off the pitch, but some of his antics in the heat of a game do make him (to some) very unlikable. I think he's a really good player, just 10-15% short of the hype he receives.

The line-kicking thing must be an EJ thing, but god knows why he made that decision. The problem for me is (it appears) a loud and decisive voice usually gets priority over any other, even if he doesn't have the decision-making, execution, consistency etc. to always back it up.

I can't work out if it is a testament to the character/togetherness of Saracens that I can't picture many of their key players at other clubs, or if it's just because they've played the 'everyone is against us' card so much.

I think that Farrell is good at what he does but he is wholly committed in character and style to just that one way of playing. It means that he is a superb flat-track bully and an excellent presence when things are going according to plan. I used the word 'ego', perhaps incorrectly, to describe his single-minded attitude.

Fitting him into a new environment at a club with a different approach would not be impossible but it would not be without problems, I suspect. Exeter, with a controlled and intelligent progression from Steenson to Simmonds would not provide the right environment.

It's all become academic anyway if the latest press reports are correct. They imply that the top English players will stay with Jones's and Gatland's blessing, playing just a few Championship games.