Team for Scotland

[Scrumhead]

For all the talk of re-training someone, why not just pick a group of the most promising potential scrum halves at age grade and intensively train (or convert) them early?

Even if there weren’t obvious natural 9s, I’d be reasonably confident there are smaller flankers or fly halves that could make the switch.

As a small flanker myself, I wish I’d moved to 9 when I was a teenager. I do OK in a ‘small but just about gets away with it’, Harry Thacker kind of way, but I think I could have been a lot better if I’d properly trained as a 9.

Anyway, as far as the weekend’s squad is concerned, I’m very worried that Eddie has yet again learned nothing from failure. I’m hoping we see Lawes back in at lock and either have Hill (my preference from this squad) or Ludlam brought in at 6.

[normanski]

Is it only me thinking that Sinckler looks lost at times, staring into space with a pensive look on his face as if he was wondering what to do next.

Perhaps he hasn’t recovered fully from his head knock in the RWC final? It would be a shame if that were the case.

George North had that look a few times last season.

[twitchy]

Do you think kids don't want to play 9 any more for some reason I haven't figured out?

They say in football that kids don't want to play centre back or as a classic 9 (they all want to be a 10). Maybe some thing similar has happened?

It is weird though.

[Mellsblue]

Is it only me thinking that Sinckler looks lost at times, staring into space with a pensive look on his face as if he was wondering what to do next.

Perhaps he hasn’t recovered fully from his head knock in the RWC final? It would be a shame if that were the case.

George North had that look a few times last season.

I think he’s had so much success with tip ons/short passes that he now has that as default and the split second of looking for that rather than getting on the move is diminishing his carrying. When he finds the correctly balance he’ll be back to his best. Iirc, Marler went through something similar but stopped doing anything other than head down and charge.

[Which Tyler]

Do you think kids don't want to play 9 any more for some reason I haven't figured out?

They say in football that kids don't want to play centre back or as a classic 9 (they all want to be a 10). Maybe some thing similar has happened?

It is weird though.

I'd say this has become enough of a side-track for its own thread.
I'd also say that in England, coaches want their best backs elsewhere - decision makers/instinctive players get put at FH, big backs get put in the centres and fast guys get put on the wing, whilst tacklers get put at FB. SH seems to be the position for any back who's not quite good enough to play elsewhere in the backline for that team.
I also think that we're too keen to specialise too early - once a FH, always a (wannabe) FH; once a wing always a wing. I'd personally like all halfbacks to get time in each other's position (and FB); all wingers to get time at FB, all ICs to get time at FH, all OCs to get time on the wing, all FBs to get time on the wing, and at FH. It doesn't have to be at a high level, and it doesn't have to be more than 3-4 matches a year; but I do think it leads to better players all around with a better reading of the game and better understanding of what their colleagues require, or are seeing.

I have no idea if the kids themselves don't want to play SH.

[Digby]

Talking about routes into playing 9 seems better than dwelling on the displays from Scotland and England last weekend

[Scrumhead]

Do you think kids don't want to play 9 any more for some reason I haven't figured out?

They say in football that kids don't want to play centre back or as a classic 9 (they all want to be a 10). Maybe some thing similar has happened?

It is weird though.

I don’t know, but in my own case, I wished someone had said to me ‘you’re a decent player, but not going to be big enough to be a flanker’ and convinced me to train as a 9.

I’m sure I wouldn’t have liked it at the time, but with the right input, I’m pretty certain I would have been better off for it.

In any case, I can’t see why being a scrum half would be unattractive to a kid - you see a lot of the ball and if you’re looking for role models, the best/most exciting players in World Rugby have always included a good number of 9s. If I were a kid now, I’m pretty sure I’d be inspired by the likes of Faf de Klerk or Cobus Reinach. I’m literally trying to steer my 12yr old nephew in that exact direction now. He’s not going to be big, so I’m telling him to learn from my mistake!

Yes - complete sidetrack from the thread though. I think we’re just all desperate to see the back of Youngs!

[jngf]

Do you think kids don't want to play 9 any more for some reason I haven't figured out?

They say in football that kids don't want to play centre back or as a classic 9 (they all want to be a 10). Maybe some thing similar has happened?

It is weird though.

I'd say this has become enough of a side-track for its own thread.
I'd also say that in England, coaches want their best backs elsewhere - decision makers/instinctive players get put at FH, big backs get put in the centres and fast guys get put on the wing, whilst tacklers get put at FB. SH seems to be the position for any back who's not quite good enough to play elsewhere in the backline for that team.
I also think that we're too keen to specialise too early - once a FH, always a (wannabe) FH; once a wing always a wing. I'd personally like all halfbacks to get time in each other's position (and FB); all wingers to get time at FB, all ICs to get time at FH, all OCs to get time on the wing, all FBs to get time on the wing, and at FH. It doesn't have to be at a high level, and it doesn't have to be more than 3-4 matches a year; but I do think it leads to better players all around with a better reading of the game and better understanding of what their colleagues require, or are seeing.

I have no idea if the kids themselves don't want to play SH.

As with scrum half in backs, I sometimes think 6 is the shirt to give an (often talented) forward when you don’t know where the hell they might work best and their talents don’t readily map to a specialist position - Tom Croft being a case in point

[Digby]

If people want to discuss England then Eddie's England at their best make fast starts and don't have subs but finishers on the bench. Genge and LCD have the potential to be finishers, but the rest of the bench looks okay only, slight caveat we've not seen Stuart at this level. And we sure as fudge didn't start quickly on Sunday

[Which Tyler]

I don’t know, but in my own case, I wished someone had said to me ‘you’re a decent player, but not going to be big enough to be a flanker’ and convinced me to train as a 9.

Exactly the same here - wish I'd found SH when I was 12-13, rather than 18 and returning to playing having given up because I was simply getting constantly beaten up on the flank (where I was played because "your brother was a good flanker 2 years ago").

[Oakboy]

Tuilagi out for the Scotland game. He really is an injury problem too often.

[switchskier]

Hmm. Let the undroppable captain Farrell do his bashing and his shouting and face-smashing and his goal-kicking and controlled multi-phase bla bla bla from 10. Get an actual centre in the side. Allow Ford to take it to the line and distribute when we need to actually attack. All that AND get rid of Ben Youngs? Yes please.

I would genuinely take that option (from this squad) if offered it.

Of course, we didn't know that about Farrell at U18s level

Do you think marcus smith could be converted to a good sh?

Too late.
Any such conversion needs to be done outside the public eye at age-grade / academy level. Which was one of the problems with the idea of Ford converting - he was too obvioulsy being fast-tracked, and he'd have needed a year or two being slow-tracked and playing SH 40 times at a lower level.
SH play is just too instinctive to learn it at a high level. If you have to stop and think, you've already taken too long; the decision needs to be made before you arrive at the ball; whilst the FH gets an extra second or two (or 10 if the SH is Youngs). But those instincts need to be honed with game time (Ford and Smith have the instincts, and the agility [which is where the size comes in - to a degree], but no time to hone them closer to the action).
Beyond that - he's probably got the physical skills, but I'm not yet convinced of his bossiness (cockiness yes, but not bossiness) - a good SH (FH needs the same with his backs) needs to be a loudmouthed pain in the arse for his forwards. I've not really seen that from Smith - though I will also admit to not having watched him with the thought in my head.

Whilst we're on the subject Kyle Eastmond is another I'd have tried converting to SH - IF he'd arried in Union without an eye on an England shirt, with both he and Bath being willing to send him out on loan for a couple of years to learn the position. We'd have needed to grab him before he'd made a name for himself in League.

Edinburgh tried this with Sam Hidalgo-Clyne a few years back who was a ten through the age groups. He had some initial success, had a good 6N where he looked sharp and kept the fringe defence on it's toes. Eventually though he was figured out and has yet to fill his potential I feel.

[Mikey Brown]

Funny how he ends up in France really, where I think he has been used in both.

[jngf]

Tuilagi out for the Scotland game. He really is an injury problem too often.

The Eddy bludgeon the oppo into submission from the k.o. Scoring early strategy through using Tuilagi and Vunipola brothers as three key hard yards ball carriers is blown out of water then?

Problem is what’s plan B, given Eddy hasn’t had sufficient (genuine as opposed to sound bite to try to scare oppo) confidence in the squad to develop one?

[Digby]

Tuilagi out for the Scotland game. He really is an injury problem too often.

He's started just about every competitive game since the start of 2019, finishing or coming off as a late sub. How much more reliable are you hoping for?

Now maybe this groin injury is a repeat of some previous issues he's had that have caused him problems, but I've not heard any details yet as to how worrisome it might prove. Worth noting England sent him into the game knowing there was a problem, that might be more of a problem than Manu himself

[Banquo]

Do you think kids don't want to play 9 any more for some reason I haven't figured out?

They say in football that kids don't want to play centre back or as a classic 9 (they all want to be a 10). Maybe some thing similar has happened?

It is weird though.

We don't really have a rich history at 9 tbh, so not sure how weird it is (other than it being weird that we havent produced that many top 9's); its compounded by clubs bringing in/sticking with tried and trusted into what has become the key decision making position.

On converting Ford back in the day- was that Dan Robson's 'year'? I remember many saying he was a pants 9 and would never hack it....

[Digby]

I was certainly very rude about Robson at 9

[p/d]

I was certainly very rude about Robson at 9

Likewise. Though that could have been more aimed at his leaning towards a comb over than his rugby ability

[Banquo]

I was certainly very rude about Robson at 9

Likewise. Though that could have been more aimed at his leaning towards a comb over than his rugby ability

even in 2011/2?

[fivepointer]

Robson wasnt much cop at U20 level but a couple of years back he was the best SH in England. He should have been capped then.

[Digby]

I was certainly very rude about Robson at 9

Likewise. Though that could have been more aimed at his leaning towards a comb over than his rugby ability

even in 2011/2?

I think my contention was he was a decent player hopelessly out of place at 9. I had to acknowledge that was extreme poor judgement on my part quite some time back, which I could try and caveat by saying he developed in the role, but really when the call is that bad it's better just to accept it was gash

[Banquo]

Robson wasnt much cop at U20 level but a couple of years back he was the best SH in England. He should have been capped then.

That's what they were saying....

[Banquo]

Likewise. Though that could have been more aimed at his leaning towards a comb over than his rugby ability

even in 2011/2?

I think my contention was he was a decent player hopelessly out of place at 9. I had to acknowledge that was extreme poor judgement on my part quite some time back, which I could try and caveat by saying he developed in the role, but really when the call is that bad it's better just to accept it was gash

I was more referring to the comb over

[Beasties]

Just musing over what's gonna happen now Manu's out. Is Eddie gonna do an Eddie and call Francis into the squad and put him straight into the team or what? Or is Devoto actually gonna get some decent minutes? Ford, Faz, JJ seems to be lacking something.....

[jngf]

Just musing over what's gonna happen now Manu's out. Is Eddie gonna do an Eddie and call Francis into the squad and put him straight into the team or what? Or is Devoto actually gonna get some decent minutes? Ford, Faz, JJ seems to be lacking something.....

Leadership ability ? Forgot that that’s outsourced to Eddy