Time to put Gatland, Howley et al out to grass

[Discreet Hooker]

Is it the intensity or lack of it ? The Welsh clubs for whatever reason didn't do well in Europe and looking at the Ospreys team I do wonder if motivation is a problem . Attendances have been pretty miserable too . Good luck however in NZ , like England , they will need it away from home .

[Mikeyv]

Agreed. If we were top of the league there would be a point, but it ain't the case.

My point was, it's a shit league, yet Ospreys the team with the most team Wales players, couldn't even finish in the top 6, so should be no surprise that team Wales aren't doing well.

I've never understood this "it's a shit league" mantra that gets trotted out. Can you explain to me what makes it shit?

Really?

The best players are often missing, their replacements are often of a very poor standard, the kick off times are all over the place, the officiating is fucking abysmal, as are the disciplinary proceedings.

Compared to what the English get as their staple product, it's miles behind.

On top of that, the point made by Son of Mathonwy is a good one, it seems to me that you stand a better chance of doing well in this league if you don't have team Wales players, particularly with the way the season is structured, and that can't be a good thing.

[Mikeyv]

While I'm at it, play offs at the end of a league season are ridiculous, although I realise it's just about the money.

It's a LEAGUE ffs, the clue is in the name, knockout games are for cup competitions imo.

[Which Tyler]

I've never understood this "it's a shit league" mantra that gets trotted out. Can you explain to me what makes it shit?

The Welsh and Italian teams?

[Lizard]

Given the good start and poor finish, do you think Warren fired all his bullets in a meaningless friendly warm-up and kept no powder dry for the biggest challenge of his coaching career?

[Son of Mathonwy]

Given the good start and poor finish, do you think Warren fired all his bullets in a meaningless friendly warm-up and kept no powder dry for the biggest challenge of his coaching career?

What bullets? What powder? It's not like he revealed a bunch of clever moves (obviously... this coaching team is incapable of coming up with clever moves).

We started well for once, but we couldn't maintain the intensity. I don't know if this is a stamina thing. Perhaps it's better if we revert to form and take it slow and steady in the hope of having more in the tank than the opposition in the last 15 minutes. But whatever... I don't think we've thrown anything away before the tour. In fact, awful though it was, the match will do a lot to get the team ready for NZ (fecking lost cause though it is).

[Rich]

Highlights are on at 7pm on BBC 2. can i bear to watch it? perhaps i'll put it on and go into the other room

You can watch the whole game on YouTube if you want :

[morepork]

Given the good start and poor finish, do you think Warren fired all his bullets in a meaningless friendly warm-up and kept no powder dry for the biggest challenge of his coaching career?

Wawwen is international rugby's David Brent. He doesn't have any cunning plans. You know exactly what you will get.

[Which Tyler]

Given the good start and poor finish, do you think Warren fired all his bullets in a meaningless friendly warm-up and kept no powder dry for the biggest challenge of his coaching career?

I'm sure that Warren's got plenty of powder - he's just been keeping it dry for the last 9 years.

After all, he's had Wales doing the same thing for the previous 89 matches - absolutely no-one would expect it the 90th!
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rblfKREj50o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Eugene Wrayburn]

My point was, it's a shit league, yet Ospreys the team with the most team Wales players, couldn't even finish in the top 6, so should be no surprise that team Wales aren't doing well.

I've never understood this "it's a shit league" mantra that gets trotted out. Can you explain to me what makes it shit?

Really?

The best players are often missing, their replacements are often of a very poor standard, the kick off times are all over the place, the officiating is fucking abysmal, as are the disciplinary proceedings.

Compared to what the English get as their staple product, it's miles behind.

On top of that, the point made by Son of Mathonwy is a good one, it seems to me that you stand a better chance of doing well in this league if you don't have team Wales players, particularly with the way the season is structured, and that can't be a good thing.

Having been a season ticket holder at an AP club I can tell you that their league is no better and I'd say their officiating is a deal worse.

The best team in England - and the champions of Europe rotates its players heavily. Before that wasps did the same. If you've not realised that it's a squad enterprise by now (and judging by the complaint against play offs I'm guessing you never will) then fine but the rest of the world has moved on in both hemispheres.

I'm afraid SoM makes a terrible point because he uses a sample of one. This is the first season since 2007/8 that the O's haven't been the first Welsh finisher and throughout that time they've been the biggest provider of players to the welsh team. That alone shows you that it's a squad game and that the replacements are clearly generally adequate.

People - well, the Welsh - have decried this league since it started. The complaint was first that the Irish weren't trying - despite the fact they weer generally a the top. Then it was that the scottish were dreadful - until they weren't. Then it was that the teams were able to rotate too much - despite that all the most successful teams in Europe all rotate heavily, and that people struggled tyo beat the rotated teams. I guess it's because the welsh miss their old league or hanker after a league with the English, but it is and always has been nonsense.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I've never understood this "it's a shit league" mantra that gets trotted out. Can you explain to me what makes it shit?

The Welsh and Italian teams?

Well quite, although they are about as competitive as the bottom end of the AP or T14.

I forgot to mention. One common complaint was of course that Connacht were there just stinking up the place and would never do better...

[Son of Mathonwy]

I've never understood this "it's a shit league" mantra that gets trotted out. Can you explain to me what makes it shit?

Really?

The best players are often missing, their replacements are often of a very poor standard, the kick off times are all over the place, the officiating is fucking abysmal, as are the disciplinary proceedings.

Compared to what the English get as their staple product, it's miles behind.

On top of that, the point made by Son of Mathonwy is a good one, it seems to me that you stand a better chance of doing well in this league if you don't have team Wales players, particularly with the way the season is structured, and that can't be a good thing.

Having been a season ticket holder at an AP club I can tell you that their league is no better and I'd say their officiating is a deal worse.

The best team in England - and the champions of Europe rotates its players heavily. Before that wasps did the same. If you've not realised that it's a squad enterprise by now (and judging by the complaint against play offs I'm guessing you never will) then fine but the rest of the world has moved on in both hemispheres.

I'm afraid SoM makes a terrible point because he uses a sample of one. This is the first season since 2007/8 that the O's haven't been the first Welsh finisher and throughout that time they've been the biggest provider of players to the welsh team. That alone shows you that it's a squad game and that the replacements are clearly generally adequate.

People - well, the Welsh - have decried this league since it started. The complaint was first that the Irish weren't trying - despite the fact they weer generally a the top. Then it was that the scottish were dreadful - until they weren't. Then it was that the teams were able to rotate too much - despite that all the most successful teams in Europe all rotate heavily, and that people struggled tyo beat the rotated teams. I guess it's because the welsh miss their old league or hanker after a league with the English, but it is and always has been nonsense.

What point do you think I made? I said that the team with the most team Wales players will have a more difficult time in a RWC year, so it's difficult to draw too many conclusions from the Ospreys doing badly this season. I'm really not sure what you're trying to say when you talk about a sample of one - I'm not making a point based on a statistical sample, it's based on the logic that any team is weakened when it loses its best players.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

SoM, my apologies. I used his complete distortion of your reasonable point - which seems to say the complete reverse of what he says in his post - and blamed you for it.

[af73]

Really?

The best players are often missing, their replacements are often of a very poor standard, the kick off times are all over the place, the officiating is fucking abysmal, as are the disciplinary proceedings.

Compared to what the English get as their staple product, it's miles behind.

On top of that, the point made by Son of Mathonwy is a good one, it seems to me that you stand a better chance of doing well in this league if you don't have team Wales players, particularly with the way the season is structured, and that can't be a good thing.

Having been a season ticket holder at an AP club I can tell you that their league is no better and I'd say their officiating is a deal worse.

The best team in England - and the champions of Europe rotates its players heavily. Before that wasps did the same. If you've not realised that it's a squad enterprise by now (and judging by the complaint against play offs I'm guessing you never will) then fine but the rest of the world has moved on in both hemispheres.

I'm afraid SoM makes a terrible point because he uses a sample of one. This is the first season since 2007/8 that the O's haven't been the first Welsh finisher and throughout that time they've been the biggest provider of players to the welsh team. That alone shows you that it's a squad game and that the replacements are clearly generally adequate.

People - well, the Welsh - have decried this league since it started. The complaint was first that the Irish weren't trying - despite the fact they weer generally a the top. Then it was that the scottish were dreadful - until they weren't. Then it was that the teams were able to rotate too much - despite that all the most successful teams in Europe all rotate heavily, and that people struggled tyo beat the rotated teams. I guess it's because the welsh miss their old league or hanker after a league with the English, but it is and always has been nonsense.

What point do you think I made? I said that the team with the most team Wales players will have a more difficult time in a RWC year, so it's difficult to draw too many conclusions from the Ospreys doing badly this season. I'm really not sure what you're trying to say when you talk about a sample of one - I'm not making a point based on a statistical sample, it's based on the logic that any team is weakened when it loses its best players.

Think Glasgow supplied 22 players to multiple nations at the world cup followed by a fixture pile up due to weather and the Paris postponements. Were 8th in the league when half the team then disappeared for the 6 nations yet still fought back to make the playoffs and be within a point of finishing top.

You make the best of the cards you've been dealt.

[francoisfou]

If Gatland and Howley are to be put out to grass, then surely Dai Young's hat should be thrown into the ring?

[Lizard]

If Gatland and Howley are to be put out to grass, then surely Dai Young's hat should be thrown into the ring?

Oh, there's no need for that sort of thing. There are still plenty of Kiwi coaches looking for a training-wheels assignment before bidding for the big job.

[Son of Mathonwy]

If Gatland and Howley are to be put out to grass, then surely Dai Young's hat should be thrown into the ring?

In the unlikely event that Gatland and Co were to go, we should be looking for an outstanding coach. I think Dai Young is a decent coach, but is there anything more to him other than that he's Welsh? We should ignore nationality for this appointment.

[Son of Mathonwy]

SoM, my apologies. I used his complete distortion of your reasonable point - which seems to say the complete reverse of what he says in his post - and blamed you for it.

Yeah, no worries, I had to go back and check what I'd said - I didn't think it was that bad!

[Son of Mathonwy]

Think Glasgow supplied 22 players to multiple nations at the world cup followed by a fixture pile up due to weather and the Paris postponements. Were 8th in the league when half the team then disappeared for the 6 nations yet still fought back to make the playoffs and be within a point of finishing top.

You make the best of the cards you've been dealt.

Indeed, and Glasgow handled it much better than the Ospreys. But that's not to say that the RWC didn't make the Ospreys job tougher.

[af73]

Indeed. Its unfortunate that Scarlets couldn't sustain that early season advantage in the same way Connacht did. It would have made for a more eclectic play-off mix.

I'm not one for gerrymandering the rules to ensure balanced representation (like super rugby) but a built in 'elite' does not a league grow. Glasgow's emergence as contgenders and Connachts run this year have generated interest where it was limited before.
The ERCC (or whatever its called) might be richer in cash terms but is poorer in appeal compared to the breadth of the H-Cup I feel.

[Mellsblue]

You need to get rid. I think Gatland looked good earlier in his reign as he's been up against some absolute dross 6N head coaches and 6N performances, the 2011 RWC performance - which basically involved beating a poor Ireland - and a few near misses against SH opponents have saved him. Since the others have employed decent coaches, ie Schmidt and Jones, well we know what's happened in the 6N. This set against the stagnation of results against the SH teams and a complete unwillingness or inability to implement different gameplans is pretty damning.

[Tre]

I've never understood this "it's a shit league" mantra that gets trotted out. Can you explain to me what makes it shit?

Really?

The best players are often missing, their replacements are often of a very poor standard, the kick off times are all over the place, the officiating is fucking abysmal, as are the disciplinary proceedings.

Compared to what the English get as their staple product, it's miles behind.

On top of that, the point made by Son of Mathonwy is a good one, it seems to me that you stand a better chance of doing well in this league if you don't have team Wales players, particularly with the way the season is structured, and that can't be a good thing.

Having been a season ticket holder at an AP club I can tell you that their league is no better and I'd say their officiating is a deal worse.

The best team in England - and the champions of Europe rotates its players heavily. Before that wasps did the same. If you've not realised that it's a squad enterprise by now (and judging by the complaint against play offs I'm guessing you never will) then fine but the rest of the world has moved on in both hemispheres.

I'm afraid SoM makes a terrible point because he uses a sample of one. This is the first season since 2007/8 that the O's haven't been the first Welsh finisher and throughout that time they've been the biggest provider of players to the welsh team. That alone shows you that it's a squad game and that the replacements are clearly generally adequate.

People - well, the Welsh - have decried this league since it started. The complaint was first that the Irish weren't trying - despite the fact they weer generally a the top. Then it was that the scottish were dreadful - until they weren't. Then it was that the teams were able to rotate too much - despite that all the most successful teams in Europe all rotate heavily, and that people struggled tyo beat the rotated teams. I guess it's because the welsh miss their old league or hanker after a league with the English, but it is and always has been nonsense.

It's a separate issue to the Gatland is shit argument , but have you ever been a Pro 12 season ticket holder?

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Really?

The best players are often missing, their replacements are often of a very poor standard, the kick off times are all over the place, the officiating is fucking abysmal, as are the disciplinary proceedings.

Compared to what the English get as their staple product, it's miles behind.

On top of that, the point made by Son of Mathonwy is a good one, it seems to me that you stand a better chance of doing well in this league if you don't have team Wales players, particularly with the way the season is structured, and that can't be a good thing.

Having been a season ticket holder at an AP club I can tell you that their league is no better and I'd say their officiating is a deal worse.

The best team in England - and the champions of Europe rotates its players heavily. Before that wasps did the same. If you've not realised that it's a squad enterprise by now (and judging by the complaint against play offs I'm guessing you never will) then fine but the rest of the world has moved on in both hemispheres.

I'm afraid SoM makes a terrible point because he uses a sample of one. This is the first season since 2007/8 that the O's haven't been the first Welsh finisher and throughout that time they've been the biggest provider of players to the welsh team. That alone shows you that it's a squad game and that the replacements are clearly generally adequate.

People - well, the Welsh - have decried this league since it started. The complaint was first that the Irish weren't trying - despite the fact they weer generally a the top. Then it was that the scottish were dreadful - until they weren't. Then it was that the teams were able to rotate too much - despite that all the most successful teams in Europe all rotate heavily, and that people struggled tyo beat the rotated teams. I guess it's because the welsh miss their old league or hanker after a league with the English, but it is and always has been nonsense.

It's a separate issue to the Gatland is shit argument , but have you ever been a Pro 12 season ticket holder?

Never had the opportunity but pretty much all the games are available on tv.

[Lizard]

What would the record be for the longest test coach tenure (for a single nation) before either losing the dressing room or failing to maintain results?

Even the best coaches go stale after a while, I reckon, without a change in environment

[Tre]

Having been a season ticket holder at an AP club I can tell you that their league is no better and I'd say their officiating is a deal worse.

The best team in England - and the champions of Europe rotates its players heavily. Before that wasps did the same. If you've not realised that it's a squad enterprise by now (and judging by the complaint against play offs I'm guessing you never will) then fine but the rest of the world has moved on in both hemispheres.

I'm afraid SoM makes a terrible point because he uses a sample of one. This is the first season since 2007/8 that the O's haven't been the first Welsh finisher and throughout that time they've been the biggest provider of players to the welsh team. That alone shows you that it's a squad game and that the replacements are clearly generally adequate.

People - well, the Welsh - have decried this league since it started. The complaint was first that the Irish weren't trying - despite the fact they weer generally a the top. Then it was that the scottish were dreadful - until they weren't. Then it was that the teams were able to rotate too much - despite that all the most successful teams in Europe all rotate heavily, and that people struggled tyo beat the rotated teams. I guess it's because the welsh miss their old league or hanker after a league with the English, but it is and always has been nonsense.

It's a separate issue to the Gatland is shit argument , but have you ever been a Pro 12 season ticket holder?

Never had the opportunity but pretty much all the games are available on tv.

Indeed. It's not a good league to be a season ticket holder in, trust me. That's different to it being a shit league mind, and the league definitely isn't to blame for Gatland's deficiencies.