Team news for Ireland.

[Digby]

Talking of power runners, Ireland kept trying to run this last game with either the ball being kicked away or playing off Sexton, and in recent times they've lost to us with forward runners taking the ball of Murray at 9 so maybe they wanted to avoid that, and they've recently forgotten how to kick which is a problem, but they did have 2 power runners in the centre. Their game was faster in the last quarter, partly Cooney and Byrne and partly England hand given up trying, but early doors was anyone wondering why Aki and Henshaw weren't smashing the ball up off Murray to try and get over the gainline before feeding Sexton?

Seeing as some chap has just reminded us of Gregan and Larkham their jobs were made so much easier at times by Gregan dropping anything he or Larkham didn't want off to the likes of Grey and Herbert. Christ even if one person has to come up into the line you've just made kicking so much easier (and actually Ireland didn't kick enough beyond they were also bad at kicking)

Indeed, the benefit of having an 'out' option. Mind, even as few as 20 years ago, backfield coverage was much thinner.

Their out option was 10-15m behind the gainline off Sexton. But even with better coverage I'd back two big 12s to carry hard, also if things are going wrong with plan A it seems a fairly simple plan B to use two lumps earlier in proceedings.

[Banquo]

Talking of power runners, Ireland kept trying to run this last game with either the ball being kicked away or playing off Sexton, and in recent times they've lost to us with forward runners taking the ball of Murray at 9 so maybe they wanted to avoid that, and they've recently forgotten how to kick which is a problem, but they did have 2 power runners in the centre. Their game was faster in the last quarter, partly Cooney and Byrne and partly England hand given up trying, but early doors was anyone wondering why Aki and Henshaw weren't smashing the ball up off Murray to try and get over the gainline before feeding Sexton?

Seeing as some chap has just reminded us of Gregan and Larkham their jobs were made so much easier at times by Gregan dropping anything he or Larkham didn't want off to the likes of Grey and Herbert. Christ even if one person has to come up into the line you've just made kicking so much easier (and actually Ireland didn't kick enough beyond they were also bad at kicking)

Indeed, the benefit of having an 'out' option. Mind, even as few as 20 years ago, backfield coverage was much thinner.

Their out option was 10-15m behind the gainline off Sexton. But even with better coverage I'd back two big 12s to carry hard, also if things are going wrong with plan A it seems a fairly simple plan B to use two lumps earlier in proceedings.

It's why imo Manu at 12 would work well with Ford, but that can be made to work with a little thought even if he happens to be wearing 13 (and we do use him that way a bit and effectively). Mind Faz at o/c often doesn't appeal much.

[Digby]

Indeed, the benefit of having an 'out' option. Mind, even as few as 20 years ago, backfield coverage was much thinner.

Their out option was 10-15m behind the gainline off Sexton. But even with better coverage I'd back two big 12s to carry hard, also if things are going wrong with plan A it seems a fairly simple plan B to use two lumps earlier in proceedings.

It's why imo Manu at 12 would work well with Ford, but that can be made to work with a little thought even if he happens to be wearing 13 (and we do use him that way a bit and effectively). Mind Faz at o/c often doesn't appeal much.

We'd probably like to use Manu off 9 before getting the ball to Ford or Faz and then have Manu instantly recycled to 13. Not sure we really have a 2nd obvious power player at centre, Ireland have 3 if they add in Farrell and still Catt had they obsessed with looking to get to the edge.

Okay if Ireland win the contact but they've not done that for a while against us, and they didn't even have Henderson on Sunday

[Banquo]

Their out option was 10-15m behind the gainline off Sexton. But even with better coverage I'd back two big 12s to carry hard, also if things are going wrong with plan A it seems a fairly simple plan B to use two lumps earlier in proceedings.

It's why imo Manu at 12 would work well with Ford, but that can be made to work with a little thought even if he happens to be wearing 13 (and we do use him that way a bit and effectively). Mind Faz at o/c often doesn't appeal much.

We'd probably like to use Manu off 9 before getting the ball to Ford or Faz and then have Manu instantly recycled to 13. Not sure we really have a 2nd obvious power player at centre, Ireland have 3 if they add in Farrell and still Catt had they obsessed with looking to get to the edge.

Okay if Ireland win the contact but they've not done that for a while against us, and they didn't even have Henderson on Sunday

Silly, you mean 'power centre who can kick well', else its not a midfield that can possibly work.

BTW, when I talked about Gregan and Larkham (and Smith) that was in the context of the Brumbies under Jones, and they had Kafer and Mortlock as starting centres in their better years.

[Digby]

It's why imo Manu at 12 would work well with Ford, but that can be made to work with a little thought even if he happens to be wearing 13 (and we do use him that way a bit and effectively). Mind Faz at o/c often doesn't appeal much.

We'd probably like to use Manu off 9 before getting the ball to Ford or Faz and then have Manu instantly recycled to 13. Not sure we really have a 2nd obvious power player at centre, Ireland have 3 if they add in Farrell and still Catt had they obsessed with looking to get to the edge.

Okay if Ireland win the contact but they've not done that for a while against us, and they didn't even have Henderson on Sunday

Silly, you mean 'power centre who can kick well', else its not a midfield that can possibly work.

BTW, when I talked about Gregan and Larkham (and Smith) that was in the context of the Brumbies under Jones, and they had Kafer and Mortlock as starting centres in their better years.

Get some kickers in the back three and you might be okay. Actually how many players England had kicking Vs Ireland dumping it all on the 9 and 10 was telling. Larmour is a hell of a runner, but he's got to add some kicking (or be allowed to kick if he already can)

Kafer and Mortlock would do very nicely at club level as power options, Morts would obviously be decent option at the top level too. You were right about the Brumbies though, it's easier to get good decision making if you've got Smith, Gregan and Larkham, we haven't really got 1 players like that

[Banquo]

We'd probably like to use Manu off 9 before getting the ball to Ford or Faz and then have Manu instantly recycled to 13. Not sure we really have a 2nd obvious power player at centre, Ireland have 3 if they add in Farrell and still Catt had they obsessed with looking to get to the edge.

Okay if Ireland win the contact but they've not done that for a while against us, and they didn't even have Henderson on Sunday

Silly, you mean 'power centre who can kick well', else its not a midfield that can possibly work.

BTW, when I talked about Gregan and Larkham (and Smith) that was in the context of the Brumbies under Jones, and they had Kafer and Mortlock as starting centres in their better years.

Get some kickers in the back three and you might be okay. Actually how many players England had kicking Vs Ireland dumping it all on the 9 and 10 was telling. Larmour is a hell of a runner, but he's got to add some kicking (or be allowed to kick if he already can)

Kafer and Mortlock would do very nicely at club level as power options, Morts would obviously be decent option at the top level too. You were right about the Brumbies though, it's easier to get good decision making if you've got Smith, Gregan and Larkham, we haven't really got 1 players like that

Really ? There was me being all serious about a kicker in the centre.....
Kafer was more your 2nd 5/8th iirc, but a sufficiently good runner as an out option.

[Digby]

Silly, you mean 'power centre who can kick well', else its not a midfield that can possibly work.

BTW, when I talked about Gregan and Larkham (and Smith) that was in the context of the Brumbies under Jones, and they had Kafer and Mortlock as starting centres in their better years.

Get some kickers in the back three and you might be okay. Actually how many players England had kicking Vs Ireland dumping it all on the 9 and 10 was telling. Larmour is a hell of a runner, but he's got to add some kicking (or be allowed to kick if he already can)

Kafer and Mortlock would do very nicely at club level as power options, Morts would obviously be decent option at the top level too. You were right about the Brumbies though, it's easier to get good decision making if you've got Smith, Gregan and Larkham, we haven't really got 1 players like that

Really ? There was me being all serious about a kicker in the centre.....
Kafer was more your 2nd 5/8th iirc, but a sufficiently good runner as an out option.

It bloody well helps to have a kicking option at 12 and 13, especially given how much kicking there is

[Banquo]

Get some kickers in the back three and you might be okay. Actually how many players England had kicking Vs Ireland dumping it all on the 9 and 10 was telling. Larmour is a hell of a runner, but he's got to add some kicking (or be allowed to kick if he already can)

Kafer and Mortlock would do very nicely at club level as power options, Morts would obviously be decent option at the top level too. You were right about the Brumbies though, it's easier to get good decision making if you've got Smith, Gregan and Larkham, we haven't really got 1 players like that

Really ? There was me being all serious about a kicker in the centre.....
Kafer was more your 2nd 5/8th iirc, but a sufficiently good runner as an out option.

It bloody well helps to have a kicking option at 12 and 13, especially given how much kicking there is

Nah kicking locks are the way forward.

It bloody well helps to have a 9 who can pass well, but apparently that’s not possible if they have to do something else well.

[Digby]

Really ? There was me being all serious about a kicker in the centre.....
Kafer was more your 2nd 5/8th iirc, but a sufficiently good runner as an out option.

It bloody well helps to have a kicking option at 12 and 13, especially given how much kicking there is

Nah kicking locks are the way forward.

It bloody well helps to have a 9 who can pass well, but apparently that’s not possible if they have to do something else well.

I'd love to know what he said to Eddie about that kick, actually has anyone seen Kruis since Sunday?

I've a feeling I'm not going to love a lot of the rugby for the next few years given space is only increasingly being sought via kicking. Though bless 'em Wales freed of Gats actually just passed some ball down the line out in front, whether that continues to work once defences have looked at it we'll have to wait and see, somehow kicking still looks the future

[Banquo]

It bloody well helps to have a kicking option at 12 and 13, especially given how much kicking there is

Nah kicking locks are the way forward.

It bloody well helps to have a 9 who can pass well, but apparently that’s not possible if they have to do something else well.

I'd love to know what he said to Eddie about that kick, actually has anyone seen Kruis since Sunday?

I've a feeling I'm not going to love a lot of the rugby for the next few years given space is only increasingly being sought via kicking. Though bless 'em Wales freed of Gats actually just passed some ball down the line out in front, whether that continues to work once defences have looked at it we'll have to wait and see, somehow kicking still looks the future

I’m sure I’ve quoted Dwyer before in saying any fool can coach a team to win through kicking; he even got one of his famed running sides to prove the point. Unfortunately he’s right.

[Digby]

I wonder what Dwyer would do faced with the rush defence?

[Banquo]

I wonder what Dwyer would do faced with the rush defence?

Indeed. He’d probably try harder than most to crack it rather than avoid the issue.

[Mikey Brown]

The latest squidge rugby thing about the Italy v Scotland game is (perhaps surprisingly) interesting. Looking at a team who only ever kick for position from 10 (using a trick that will probably get removed from the laws) and run everything, but so far has failed to even score a point in 2 games.

[Banquo]

as an aside, Jones banned his Japanese sides from kicking for a while.

[Oakboy]

The saddest part is that poor (inaccurate) kicking seems to be credited as a success factor. 'Good' kicks that land on grass or get competitively chased must average at about 20%. There must be something wrong with the game in that context.

[Digby]

What you want to avoid are bad kicks, anything else doesn't hurt you too much. What does hurt you is having the ball if you can't go forwards, kicking is much better than that

[Oakboy]

What you want to avoid are bad kicks, anything else doesn't hurt you too much. What does hurt you is having the ball if you can't go forwards, kicking is much better than that

Quite! The ultimate in negativity is a positive. That should attract youngsters to take up the game.

[Banquo]

What you want to avoid are bad kicks, anything else doesn't hurt you too much. What does hurt you is having the ball if you can't go forwards, kicking is much better than that

Quite! The ultimate in negativity is a positive. That should attract youngsters to take up the game.

You are the kick and clap generation Dors, so its all your fault

[Digby]

What you want to avoid are bad kicks, anything else doesn't hurt you too much. What does hurt you is having the ball if you can't go forwards, kicking is much better than that

Quite! The ultimate in negativity is a positive. That should attract youngsters to take up the game.

You are the kick and clap generation Dors, so its all your fault

We'd all like to remember the age of running rugby that really never was. History has about 42 clips of actual running moves that worked and they're played over and over like that's all the game actually was before it went pro.

That said the game does need to think about how offside works because it's easier to blitz if you're Maro Itoje if you start where Maro Itoje starts from.

[Oakboy]

What you want to avoid are bad kicks, anything else doesn't hurt you too much. What does hurt you is having the ball if you can't go forwards, kicking is much better than that

Quite! The ultimate in negativity is a positive. That should attract youngsters to take up the game.

You are the kick and clap generation Dors, so its all your fault

Do you remember that period when the two French brothers kicked everything - late 60s?? I was not into rugby then but my uni flatmate, who was, whinged incessantly. Mind you, he was a Scot so what did he know?

I just think that coaches have run out of ideas. Bloody hell, even a few years ago Brown would run kicks back at the opposition and usually beat a few defenders. The irony of ironies is that Jones probanly picked Daly at FB for his kicking ability rather than his running prowess.

I think the way forward is to have injury-only replacements and automatically red card all SHs after 5 minutes. At least then we would see the back of box-kicking.

[Banquo]

Quite! The ultimate in negativity is a positive. That should attract youngsters to take up the game.

You are the kick and clap generation Dors, so its all your fault

Do you remember that period when the two French brothers kicked everything - late 60s?? I was not into rugby then but my uni flatmate, who was, whinged incessantly. Mind you, he was a Scot so what did he know?

I just think that coaches have run out of ideas. Bloody hell, even a few years ago Brown would run kicks back at the opposition and usually beat a few defenders. The irony of ironies is that Jones probanly picked Daly at FB for his kicking ability rather than his running prowess.

I think the way forward is to have injury-only replacements and automatically red card all SHs after 5 minutes. At least then we would see the back of box-kicking.

Games massively different now- for a start, games in the 60's/70's, even 80's rarely went through more than a couple of phases.

I think that's not the case on Daly, else he'd have just kept picking Brown-- his running has featured heavily in England's best moments during his (first) stint at 15. His kicking ability was under used if anything.

Injury only replacements, enforce the ruck laws and making players stay on their feet would make a substantial difference, as well as enforcing the play the ball quickly stuff and banning the caterpillar...ie being much hotter at when the ball is out of the ruck (in turn helped by cleaning up the bodies on the floor).

[Digby]

I see no evidence coaches have run out of ideas, just in the England Vs Ireland game we saw lots of different types of kicks from England and from lots of players (don't know if Kruis should be included in that) as well as a number of running phases. Those running phases were let down by alignment in attack and some too early passing, but there wasn't a lack of ideas.

I don't remember any period in the 60s, or the 70s for that matter, vague impressions start in the 80s. Having watched some games on video from the 60s and 70s it was characterised by a lot of kicking to touch, and on the rare instances someone passed a handling error, and from the resulting scrum you'd have around 3 hours to initiate an attack before you were faced by the defence, and even then it might be somebody who'd happily jump away from making a tackle

[Banquo]

I see no evidence coaches have run out of ideas, just in the England Vs Ireland game we saw lots of different types of kicks from England and from lots of players (don't know if Kruis should be included in that) as well as a number of running phases. Those running phases were let down by alignment in attack and some too early passing, but there wasn't a lack of ideas.

I don't remember any period in the 60s, or the 70s for that matter, vague impressions start in the 80s. Having watched some games on video from the 60s and 70s it was characterised by a lot of kicking to touch, and on the rare instances someone passed a handling error, and from the resulting scrum you'd have around 3 hours to initiate an attack before you were faced by the defence, and even then it might be somebody who'd happily jump away from making a tackle

That's not far off; it helped when they stopped the ball being able to be kicked into touch from anywhere and players like JPR Williams turned full back from a merely defensive role into a counterattacking job. The skill levels were much lower, as you'd expect given mostly amateurs (cough Wales cough NZ), fitness levels a lot lower (ditto), and so there was a lot more space, and running talent was easier to show off. The balls didn't help much either. The scrums were far quicker than now to set and restart, but that was handy as there were about 3 x the number.
The kick I am enjoying at the moment is the little dink over the rush defence, wide of the sweeper and short of the backfield- well executed and rarely done it works most of the time; serves to keep the rush honest I'd think. There is plenty of variety on show between kicks imo- saw some interesting lineout variations last weekend for example.

[morepork]

We'd probably like to use Manu off 9 before getting the ball to Ford or Faz and then have Manu instantly recycled to 13. Not sure we really have a 2nd obvious power player at centre, Ireland have 3 if they add in Farrell and still Catt had they obsessed with looking to get to the edge.

Okay if Ireland win the contact but they've not done that for a while against us, and they didn't even have Henderson on Sunday

Silly, you mean 'power centre who can kick well', else its not a midfield that can possibly work.

BTW, when I talked about Gregan and Larkham (and Smith) that was in the context of the Brumbies under Jones, and they had Kafer and Mortlock as starting centres in their better years.

Get some kickers in the back three and you might be okay. Actually how many players England had kicking Vs Ireland dumping it all on the 9 and 10 was telling. Larmour is a hell of a runner, but he's got to add some kicking (or be allowed to kick if he already can)

Kafer and Mortlock would do very nicely at club level as power options, Morts would obviously be decent option at the top level too. You were right about the Brumbies though, it's easier to get good decision making if you've got Smith, Gregan and Larkham, we haven't really got 1 players like that

Jones' reputation as a coach rides almost entirely on these three.

[Banquo]

Silly, you mean 'power centre who can kick well', else its not a midfield that can possibly work.

BTW, when I talked about Gregan and Larkham (and Smith) that was in the context of the Brumbies under Jones, and they had Kafer and Mortlock as starting centres in their better years.

Get some kickers in the back three and you might be okay. Actually how many players England had kicking Vs Ireland dumping it all on the 9 and 10 was telling. Larmour is a hell of a runner, but he's got to add some kicking (or be allowed to kick if he already can)

Kafer and Mortlock would do very nicely at club level as power options, Morts would obviously be decent option at the top level too. You were right about the Brumbies though, it's easier to get good decision making if you've got Smith, Gregan and Larkham, we haven't really got 1 players like that

Jones' reputation as a coach rides almost entirely on these three.

In fairness he took the risk on Smith as a young un and in redefining how the Brumbies play. He also did a great job with Suntory and then with the national team, can't deny that. No idea how much he contributed to SA's 2007 win, other than his own opinion