Team news for Wales

[Mikey Brown]

I'd love to hear one of those player mic things for Farrell to know what it is he actually says on the pitch. He definitely says a lot and it appears to be quite effective.

It appears to be quite effusive, certainly, but can anyone recall a time under his captaincy where we were behind and came back to win? Or where we started losing control of a game and arrested the slide?

Puja

I can only remember us having late game upticks when Ford has been on the bench.

Surprising, really, when he's our most creative player.

What's the stat now about tries scored per minute when Ford is at 10 compared to when Farrell is at 10?

Is that a rhetorical question? You’ve mentioned that stat before but I’ve never seen it. I’d be curious to know.

[Stom]

It appears to be quite effusive, certainly, but can anyone recall a time under his captaincy where we were behind and came back to win? Or where we started losing control of a game and arrested the slide?

Puja

I can only remember us having late game upticks when Ford has been on the bench.

Surprising, really, when he's our most creative player.

What's the stat now about tries scored per minute when Ford is at 10 compared to when Farrell is at 10?

Is that a rhetorical question? You’ve mentioned that stat before but I’ve never seen it. I’d be curious to know.

I don't have the time to go stat crawling again, but it was quite stark when I last looked it up.

[Oakboy]

Team leaked...

Marler
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Kruis
Lawes
Underhill
Curry
Youngs
Farrell
May
Tuilagi
Slade
Watson
Daly

LCD, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Wilson, Heinz, Ford, Joseph

I'm not sure which of three aspects of that are worst, should it be correct:

1. Ewels ahead of Launchbury
2. Watson/Daly in the wrong shirts
3. Curry at 8 ahead of Wilson

I can only conclude that it is a wind-up superbly crafted to niggle.

[Banquo]

Ireland

I can live with the idea Farrell is a great leader, but could he please stop talking about taking it up a level, if the team are buying into what Farrell is saying we must have gone up roughly 82,361 levels under his captaincy

Better at 10?

nein

probably better than Youngs there

[Spiffy]

Is Launch injured, or is Ewels rated ahead of Launch?

And Ford wasn't brilliant against Ireland, but that's quite a harsh drop for him

if true squad, then both these, plus Lawes at 6 again. It does signal that Faz is undroppable and the number one 10 in reality.

Farrell probably was better the last game, but over a longer period... not so much.

Much easier from the outside to ignore of course a player like Farrell driving standards on and off the pitch

It's not the driving of standards that's the major issue, it's his own standard of play.
Farrell is just not one of the great 10s (or 12s). He is solid and competent, sometimes good, sometimes not, but rarely outstanding. He's the English Dan Biggar (runs for cover!).
Ford is the more creative and better all round 10. Even looking at the younger generation - could Faz produce a performance, even at club level, with the attacking skills, footwork, gas and overall flair shown by Smith and Simmonds lat weekend? (despite the poor defence in that game.)
To be fair to him, he is a determined competitor. He is not over endowed with natural skills but has worked his socks off to optimise his limited talents.

[Digby]

if true squad, then both these, plus Lawes at 6 again. It does signal that Faz is undroppable and the number one 10 in reality.

Farrell probably was better the last game, but over a longer period... not so much.

Much easier from the outside to ignore of course a player like Farrell driving standards on and off the pitch

It's not the driving of standards that's the major issue, it's his own standard of play.
Farrell is just not one of the great 10s (or 12s). He is solid and competent, sometimes good, sometimes not, but rarely outstanding. He's the English Dan Biggar (runs for cover!).
Ford is the more creative and better all round 10. Even looking at the younger generation - could Faz produce a performance, even at club level, with the attacking skills, footwork, gas and overall flair shown by Smith and Simmonds lat weekend? (despite the poor defence in that game.)
To be fair to him, he is a determined competitor. He is not over endowed with natural skills but has worked his socks off to optimise his limited talents.

I'd take Ford, but that does strike me as too harsh on Farrell, his skills and decision making don't look that flash but there's a lot of substance there, and I write this recalling even his pass to Mike Brown in Dublin being 3-5m in the wrong place

[Banquo]

Farrell probably was better the last game, but over a longer period... not so much.

Much easier from the outside to ignore of course a player like Farrell driving standards on and off the pitch

It's not the driving of standards that's the major issue, it's his own standard of play.
Farrell is just not one of the great 10s (or 12s). He is solid and competent, sometimes good, sometimes not, but rarely outstanding. He's the English Dan Biggar (runs for cover!).
Ford is the more creative and better all round 10. Even looking at the younger generation - could Faz produce a performance, even at club level, with the attacking skills, footwork, gas and overall flair shown by Smith and Simmonds lat weekend? (despite the poor defence in that game.)
To be fair to him, he is a determined competitor. He is not over endowed with natural skills but has worked his socks off to optimise his limited talents.

I'd take Ford, but that does strike me as too harsh on Farrell, his skills and decision making don't look that flash but there's a lot of substance there, and I write this recalling even his pass to Mike Brown in Dublin being 3-5m in the wrong place

He’s a poor mans wilkinson, but without the subscription to Goop.

[Digby]

He’s a poor mans wilkinson, but without the subscription to Goop.

That's maybe not unfair, nor the comparison to Biggar. I had to look up goop, I thought maybe that was the name of the hair product sold in Coming to American but recall now that was Soul Glow

[Mikey Brown]

Farrell probably was better the last game, but over a longer period... not so much.

Much easier from the outside to ignore of course a player like Farrell driving standards on and off the pitch

It's not the driving of standards that's the major issue, it's his own standard of play.
Farrell is just not one of the great 10s (or 12s). He is solid and competent, sometimes good, sometimes not, but rarely outstanding. He's the English Dan Biggar (runs for cover!).
Ford is the more creative and better all round 10. Even looking at the younger generation - could Faz produce a performance, even at club level, with the attacking skills, footwork, gas and overall flair shown by Smith and Simmonds lat weekend? (despite the poor defence in that game.)
To be fair to him, he is a determined competitor. He is not over endowed with natural skills but has worked his socks off to optimise his limited talents.

I'd take Ford, but that does strike me as too harsh on Farrell, his skills and decision making don't look that flash but there's a lot of substance there, and I write this recalling even his pass to Mike Brown in Dublin being 3-5m in the wrong place

I glanced over that and thought you were going to refer to that brilliant flat pass he did against Ireland (for Jonny May to score I think) and I feel oddly aware of that moment because it appears to be one of literally two occasions (the other flat right-handed pass in the same position to Daly to score against Wales) that people refer to when talking about Farrell's attacking/passing brilliance.

Don't you dare ask me what my point is.

[jngf]

I mean he clearly hasn't. He's looked dodgy at the back of the scrum and been knocked back in the tackle once or twice (not Nathan Hughes bad but not great) but he's still been a very useful player to have on the pitch. I agree it's not the best use of his talents to have him focussed so much on carrying, though he's had some good ones too.

I'd still agree he's not an 8, it's more that he's such a good player he's looked passable there.

I think our point of disagreement is that you feel he’s looked passable in that berth whereas I really don’t think he has looked anything but an out and out test openside pressganged by an increasingly stubborn and petulant coach into a role which negates most of his talents.

[Oakboy]

It's not the driving of standards that's the major issue, it's his own standard of play.
Farrell is just not one of the great 10s (or 12s). He is solid and competent, sometimes good, sometimes not, but rarely outstanding. He's the English Dan Biggar (runs for cover!).
Ford is the more creative and better all round 10. Even looking at the younger generation - could Faz produce a performance, even at club level, with the attacking skills, footwork, gas and overall flair shown by Smith and Simmonds lat weekend? (despite the poor defence in that game.)
To be fair to him, he is a determined competitor. He is not over endowed with natural skills but has worked his socks off to optimise his limited talents.

I'd take Ford, but that does strike me as too harsh on Farrell, his skills and decision making don't look that flash but there's a lot of substance there, and I write this recalling even his pass to Mike Brown in Dublin being 3-5m in the wrong place

He’s a poor mans wilkinson, but without the subscription to Goop.

In the Ford v Farrell debate, there is no doubt that Ford is the better passer of the two but, assuming that it was one or the other at FH and captain, what other aspects of play, game control and leadership is Ford better at?

[Banquo]

I'd take Ford, but that does strike me as too harsh on Farrell, his skills and decision making don't look that flash but there's a lot of substance there, and I write this recalling even his pass to Mike Brown in Dublin being 3-5m in the wrong place

He’s a poor mans wilkinson, but without the subscription to Goop.

In the Ford v Farrell debate, there is no doubt that Ford is the better passer of the two but, assuming that it was one or the other at FH and captain, what other aspects of play, game control and leadership is Ford better at?

He's a better decision maker when running the ball, better vision, challenges the gainline much more (by playing close to it), a better punter out of hand, a better runner with the ball in hand. "game control; is a bit nebulous, and your start point seems always to be based on a 10 being able to call all the shots, even if the pack is being hammered and producing rank bad ball. That's before we examine the 9's that are being selected.

Faz is more physical, more vocal, and handier at rucks. They work off the ball in different ways when both are on the pitch.

[morepork]

Ford is really good at putting your forwards into space when you are rumbling forward. That was really clear in the Ireland game.

[Mikey Brown]

I mean he clearly hasn't. He's looked dodgy at the back of the scrum and been knocked back in the tackle once or twice (not Nathan Hughes bad but not great) but he's still been a very useful player to have on the pitch. I agree it's not the best use of his talents to have him focussed so much on carrying, though he's had some good ones too.

I'd still agree he's not an 8, it's more that he's such a good player he's looked passable there.

I think our point of disagreement is that you feel he’s looked passable in that berth whereas I really don’t think he has looked anything but an out and out test openside pressganged by an increasingly stubborn and petulant coach into a role which negates most of his talents.

Well yeah but you thought that before he even played there.

[Banquo]

Ford is really good at putting your forwards into space when you are rumbling forward. That was really clear in the Ireland game.

yep, he takes it right up to the defence, gives them little time to react, and the forwards are starting to hit good lines.

[Digby]

Ford is really good at putting your forwards into space when you are rumbling forward. That was really clear in the Ireland game.

yep, he takes it right up to the defence, gives them little time to react, and the forwards are starting to hit good lines.

And then kicks behind them. They do say it helps if they can't read your attack, and nobody saw that coming!

Lawes actually impressed in that game when it came to picking his lines, some nice footwork to change his lines too. Still not sold he should be at 6

[Scrumhead]

I mean he clearly hasn't. He's looked dodgy at the back of the scrum and been knocked back in the tackle once or twice (not Nathan Hughes bad but not great) but he's still been a very useful player to have on the pitch. I agree it's not the best use of his talents to have him focussed so much on carrying, though he's had some good ones too.

I'd still agree he's not an 8, it's more that he's such a good player he's looked passable there.

I think our point of disagreement is that you feel he’s looked passable in that berth whereas I really don’t think he has looked anything but an out and out test openside pressganged by an increasingly stubborn and petulant coach into a role which negates most of his talents.

Well yeah but you thought that before he even played there.

Took the words right out of my mouth ...

[Oakboy]

He’s a poor mans wilkinson, but without the subscription to Goop.

In the Ford v Farrell debate, there is no doubt that Ford is the better passer of the two but, assuming that it was one or the other at FH and captain, what other aspects of play, game control and leadership is Ford better at?

He's a better decision maker when running the ball, better vision, challenges the gainline much more (by playing close to it), a better punter out of hand, a better runner with the ball in hand. "game control; is a bit nebulous, and your start point seems always to be based on a 10 being able to call all the shots, even if the pack is being hammered and producing rank bad ball. That's before we examine the 9's that are being selected.

Faz is more physical, more vocal, and handier at rucks. They work off the ball in different ways when both are on the pitch.

So, is Ford better for the team with the standard of ball from the 9s that are being selected? I'm not trying to score any points here, just attempting to understand why Jones disagrees with you (on the assumption that he continues to drop Ford if he plays Tuilagi at 12). IF Ford's actual ball-handling skills are superior, to choose Farrell in preference at 10, Jones MUST be selecting on other factors. Their kicking from hand and tee is more or less equal. That only leaves leadership/game management (you choose the description if you don't like mine) or defence doesn't it?

[Digby]

I think our point of disagreement is that you feel he’s looked passable in that berth whereas I really don’t think he has looked anything but an out and out test openside pressganged by an increasingly stubborn and petulant coach into a role which negates most of his talents.

Well yeah but you thought that before he even played there.

Took the words right out of my mouth ...

You're going to have some people singing Meatloaf songs with that sort of comment

[Stom]

In the Ford v Farrell debate, there is no doubt that Ford is the better passer of the two but, assuming that it was one or the other at FH and captain, what other aspects of play, game control and leadership is Ford better at?

He's a better decision maker when running the ball, better vision, challenges the gainline much more (by playing close to it), a better punter out of hand, a better runner with the ball in hand. "game control; is a bit nebulous, and your start point seems always to be based on a 10 being able to call all the shots, even if the pack is being hammered and producing rank bad ball. That's before we examine the 9's that are being selected.

Faz is more physical, more vocal, and handier at rucks. They work off the ball in different ways when both are on the pitch.

So, is Ford better for the team with the standard of ball from the 9s that are being selected? I'm not trying to score any points here, just attempting to understand why Jones disagrees with you (on the assumption that he continues to drop Ford if he plays Tuilagi at 12). IF Ford's actual ball-handling skills are superior, to choose Farrell in preference at 10, Jones MUST be selecting on other factors. Their kicking from hand and tee is more or less equal. That only leaves leadership/game management (you choose the description if you don't like mine) or defence doesn't it?

If by equal you mean Farrell’s kicking from tee is slightly better and Ford’s kicking from hand a hell of a lot better, even if Farrell has improved.

Farrell has that undefinable quality. He has compromising pictures of Eddie

[francoisfou]

I’d be delighted to see Tuilagi and Slade as centres, but with Ford at 10, but until Eddie moves on, that clearly won’t happen, unless Farrell goes off injured. I wouldn’t normally wish for a player to leave the field injured but may make an exception in this case!

[Stom]

The best case is if he makes a very illegal hit that’s picked up and he’s sanctioned.

[Stom]

The best case is if he makes a very illegal hit that’s picked up and he’s sanctioned.

Even better if he swears at the ref on the way off and then lashes out at a fan. A 2 year ban might be good for him.

[francoisfou]

The best case is if he makes a very illegal hit that’s picked up and he’s sanctioned.

Even better if he swears at the ref on the way off and then lashes out at a fan. A 2 year ban might be good for him.

Who is the ref? Edit... It’s Ben O’Keefe. Has he a history of issuing cards?

[Spiffy]

He’s a poor mans wilkinson, but without the subscription to Goop.

In the Ford v Farrell debate, there is no doubt that Ford is the better passer of the two but, assuming that it was one or the other at FH and captain, what other aspects of play, game control and leadership is Ford better at?

He's a better decision maker when running the ball, better vision, challenges the gainline much more (by playing close to it), a better punter out of hand, a better runner with the ball in hand. "game control; is a bit nebulous, and your start point seems always to be based on a 10 being able to call all the shots, even if the pack is being hammered and producing rank bad ball. That's before we examine the 9's that are being selected.

Faz is more physical, more vocal, and handier at rucks. They work off the ball in different ways when both are on the pitch.

You did not mention defence/tackling. I'd say Farrell is over-rated and Ford underrated.