Jones

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Oakboy
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Re: Jones

Post by Oakboy »

In all the versatility/revolutionary positional waffle, there is no mention of trying to find an IC who can do sommething more than whinge, tackle and kick. Farrell-dislike aside, I think Jones's biggest issues remain getting more, constructively, from 9 and 12. There is more to be gained there than going down the SA 6:2 route so slavishly. I was not surprised to see that our kicking is increasing.

Although I predicted that SA would win the RWC, I think the game needed NZ to do so. The quality of our SF against them, even if NZ were below par, was remarkable. I just hope that NZ react to the nature of that match rather than seek to alter their game in the SA direction like we are.
Mikey Brown
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Re: Jones

Post by Mikey Brown »

Copy and paste please?
p/d
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Re: Jones

Post by p/d »

Mikey Brown wrote:Copy and paste please?
It's filler. Launchbury covering 6, 7 & 8 should be enough insight.
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Oakboy
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Re: Jones

Post by Oakboy »

Quite long:


Whether or not Eddie Jones and the RFU are making progress with a contract extension to ensure that he is in charge at Rugby World Cup 2023, you can be sure that the Australian has thought about two things – lifting the trophy in France and what the sport will look like in three and a half years’ time. Indeed, he has already been preparing for what the future might hold.

1. Multi-positional players and bench strategy
After a 33-30 victory over Wales to finish this instalment of England’s 2020 Six Nations campaign, Eddie Jones was asked about the performance of Henry Slade.
The 26 year-old Exeter Chief had replaced Jonny May in the early stages, shifting Elliot Daly to the left wing. May failed a head injury assessment, so Slade stayed on for a 72-minute outing.
Despite a couple of errors, his display as stand-in full-back was impressively assured. Jones acknowledged as much. In fact, he almost seemed disappointed that there had not been further scope to tinker.
“We’re increasing the depth of our squad,” he said. “And increasing the versatility of our players. If we’d had another injury, we’d have had to play Ben Earl at blindside wing. He’s been training there, so that’s another option for us.”

It is 14 months since Jones publicly floated the idea of Jack Nowell as a hybrid wing-cum-flanker. In the interim, South Africa have surged to Rugby World Cup glory with a selection strategy comprising a six-two split of forwards on the bench.
All four props were aggressive, brawny scrummagers. Both hookers could scavenge at the breakdown. Pieter Steph du Toit, a former lock, caused havoc as a back-rower.
The final member of the Springboks’ self-styled Bomb Squad, a collective moniker given to their replacements, was Francois Steyn – a freakishly gifted footballer adept in either centre position, at full-back or at fly-half.
All of that chimes with what England have attempted at various stages. Jones persevered with Courtney Lawes at blindside flanker, although Lewis Ludlam started in Scotland. The presence of 20 year-old Ted Hill, who will surely tour Japan, reflected the importance of one rangy back-rower.
Jones moved to a six-two bench after England’s loss to France. The pacier Earl was preferred to Ludlam. Ultimately, Slade proved he can be the backline Swiss army knife to fix an early setback from the number 23 shirt.
Down the line, Cameron Redpath might be a potential candidate for that function. Joe Cokanasiga has slotted in at number eight. While that felt faddish, similar in-game switches are unlikely to slow down.
There is a reactive element to this, clearly. The influence of Matt Proudfoot, South Africa’s former scrum coach, would appear to have spread beyond set piece improvements. England even tried a midfield maul in Paris, copying a play that the Springboks unleashed in Yokohama.
Still, Jones would appear to have rediscovered his touch for changing games with proactive replacements. Joe Launchbury, his “maul specialist”, foiled a catch-and-drive from Wales late on.
World Rugby is researching a cap on tactical replacements as a measure to prevent injury. Jones will have to react accordingly, but both Kyle Sinckler and Jamie George lasted 80 minutes against Scotland.
2. Keeping on top of kicking trends
England hung Manu Tuilagi in the back-field at the weekend, borrowing an innovative tactic that has been used by Leicester Tigers this season.
When in action for Geordan Murphy’s men, one of Tuilagi or rampaging prop Ellis Genge have stayed alongside full-back Telusa Veainu rather than chasing restarts. If an opposition clearance has remained in-field, Tigers have had a powerful tackle-breaker on hand.

It is a plan that can be exploited. Bristol Bears conjured a try directly from a restart at Welford Road, chipping over Genge for Piers O’Conor to score. Wales, renowned for kicking long rather than for touch and probably wary of England’s lineout anyway, adapted superb on Saturday. At half-time, they moved Nick Tompkins into a catching position.
He darted away from Elliot Daly, isolated George Kruis and exchanged passes with Josh Navidi. Tuilagi, fulfilling a role that Billy Vunipola has previously taken on, was powerless to prevent a spectacular score that was finished by Justin Tipuric.
Even so, it did demonstrate how carefully England think about cat-and-mouse kicking patterns. In Ben Youngs, George Ford, Owen Farrell, Elliot Daly and Slade, Jones has rammed his backline full of kicking options in a bid to manipulate back-field coverage of rivals. Jonny May’s chipped and chased brilliantly at the Stade de France.
Only once, in their defeat to Les Bleus, did England kick fewer times than their opponents this Six Nations. They averaged 35 kicks per match, even greater than their return during the 2019 tournament. Sinckler and George Kruis have contributed to those totals. Meanwhile, France have benefited from the appointment of Vlok Cilliers to oversee and organise their exit plays.
Since the arrival of defence coach John Mitchell in late 2018, England have not wasted energy or hung around in possession. A habit of scoring early tries, and coaxing the trailing team into pushing passes, aids this constricting style.
Again, South Africa will have been studied. Felix Jones, a former Munster colleague of Rassie Erasmus and Jacques Nienaber employed as an analyst by the Springboks, said that a pre-tournament win over Japan in Kumagaya gave the eventual champions a head-start on how vital it would be for them to feel comfortable without the ball in stifling conditions.

Cheslin Kolbe scores against Japan in Kumagaya Credit: REX
In that 41-7 win, they kicked 33 times and only accumulated 54 attacking rucks, yet feasted on turnovers. Destructive defence and getting in behind teams by kicking would prove useful. Two months later, in the final against England, South Africa scored their two tries from transition situations – Makazole Mapimpi’s after they regathered a Youngs box-kick and Cheslin Kolbe’s following a spill from Slade.
Eventually, kicking prowess may force defensive systems to change from 13-2 and 14-1 formations, where they generally are now with wingers up flat, towards a greater emphasis on back-field coverage. If the 50-22 kicking law comes in, that process will accelerate. Then, we can expect passing to come back into fashion.
3. Which players will thrive with greater ball-in-play time?
Most law changes introduced by rugby union chiefs have come with the honourable aim to enhance the spectacle. Usually, that means increasing ball-in-play time.
Whispers before the Six Nations suggested that Jones was eager to see Tom Curry at the base of the scrum, whether or not Billy Vunipola had been available. The mobile, tenacious Sale Shark has subsequently excelled.
Vunipola will almost certainly add to his 51 caps. If his arm heals, there is no reason why he cannot make the 2023 World Cup. But Jones is continually re-evaluating the blend and balance required for modern Test matches and expan.
Last August, he highlighted full-back and outside centre as positions that epitomised the sport’s evolution into “basically a mixture of NFL [American football] and soccer”.

“You have the first three phases that are all power and precision,” Jones added. “Then you have the kick-return game which becomes soccer.”
England’s head coach stated that “a 13 who can kick, run and pass and a full-back who can attack from deep” were vital. Perhaps he now thinks a heft is less of a priority for number eights. Duane Vermeulen of South Africa might argue otherwise, of course.
On the other end of the scale, Cheslin Kolbe has reinforced the enduring worth of explosive evasion. Earl and hot-stepping Worcester Warriors centre Ollie Lawrence should tour, and play, this summer to see if they can translate promise on to the international scene. Joe Marchant, out on loan to the Blues, has started his six-month sabbatical in Super Rugby very well.
Japan’s playing style poses a different and valuable challenge to England. They will likely persevere with some variation of the 1-3-2-2 shape that helped them to the Rugby World Cup quarter-finals.
Keeping possession and attempting to outmanoeuvre England, Japan will fundamentally deliver a more cohesive, quicker and slicker version of the gameplans that Ireland and Wales brought to Twickenham. Lungs and legs will burn in intense heat.
As things stand, pending the rearrangement of their trip to Italy, the fixture to follow that two-Test trip is against New Zealand on November 7. The future will arrive fast.
p/d
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Re: Jones

Post by p/d »

Oakboy wrote:Quite long:

Oops. I though it was the 6/2 bench split, covering:

LCD - 2, 6,7 & 8
Stewart - 1 & 3
Genge - 1,3,6,7, & 8
Launchbury - 4,5,6,7 &8
Eewles - (as above)
Earls - 6,7,8,11 & 14
Heinz - 9 (at a push)
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Oakboy
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Re: Jones

Post by Oakboy »

p/d wrote:
Oakboy wrote:Quite long:

Oops. I though it was the 6/2 bench split, covering:

LCD - 2, 6,7 & 8
Stewart - 1 & 3
Genge - 1,3,6,7, & 8
Launchbury - 4,5,6,7 &8
Eewles - (as above)
Earls - 6,7,8,11 & 14
Heinz - 9 (at a push)
:D :D love the last line!
Freddo
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Re: Jones

Post by Freddo »

Coka at 8 :D
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jngf
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Re: Jones

Post by jngf »

Freddo wrote:Coka at 8 :D
Frankly that would be a big step up from what we’ve seen this 6 Nations.
Mikey Brown
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Re: Jones

Post by Mikey Brown »

Yeah Cokanasiga’s control at the base of the scrum really is something to behold.

Or is it perhaps that he’s 6’4” & 18 stone that makes you think that?

Jesus. Why am I even asking? Why am I doing this to myself?
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Mellsblue
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Re: Jones

Post by Mellsblue »

I fancy Sinckler at 8. Quick with good hands. Seems perfect.
Digby
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Re: Jones

Post by Digby »

If we listed our players of the 6N so far it's probably between Youngs, Ford, Itoje and Curry, and yet the complaints are about...
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Stom
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Re: Jones

Post by Stom »

Digby wrote:If we listed our players of the 6N so far it's probably between Youngs, Ford, Itoje and Curry, and yet the complaints are about...
Is it really?

I would have gone for Itoje, Sinckler, err...
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Mellsblue
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Re: Jones

Post by Mellsblue »

Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:If we listed our players of the 6N so far it's probably between Youngs, Ford, Itoje and Curry, and yet the complaints are about...
Is it really?

I would have gone for Itoje, Sinckler, err...
Are we back to discussing potential no8s again?
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Stom
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Re: Jones

Post by Stom »

Mellsblue wrote:
Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:If we listed our players of the 6N so far it's probably between Youngs, Ford, Itoje and Curry, and yet the complaints are about...
Is it really?

I would have gone for Itoje, Sinckler, err...
Are we back to discussing potential no8s again?
Obviously the answer is Farrell.
Digby
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Re: Jones

Post by Digby »

Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:If we listed our players of the 6N so far it's probably between Youngs, Ford, Itoje and Curry, and yet the complaints are about...
Is it really?

I would have gone for Itoje, Sinckler, err...
Some nice passes from Sincks, but they haven't all worked even when they've worked, so other than he's a Quins player (sort of) I'm not sure what we're looking at? The scrum has gone okay I suppose, but against teams not that strong in the scrum
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Stom
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Re: Jones

Post by Stom »

Digby wrote:
Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:If we listed our players of the 6N so far it's probably between Youngs, Ford, Itoje and Curry, and yet the complaints are about...
Is it really?

I would have gone for Itoje, Sinckler, err...
Some nice passes from Sincks, but they haven't all worked even when they've worked, so other than he's a Quins player (sort of) I'm not sure what we're looking at? The scrum has gone okay I suppose, but against teams not that strong in the scrum
Check out Charlie Morgan's analysis. Sinckler has become essential to what England do. His work in both attack and defence is incredible.
Digby
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Re: Jones

Post by Digby »

Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:
Stom wrote:
Is it really?

I would have gone for Itoje, Sinckler, err...
Some nice passes from Sincks, but they haven't all worked even when they've worked, so other than he's a Quins player (sort of) I'm not sure what we're looking at? The scrum has gone okay I suppose, but against teams not that strong in the scrum
Check out Charlie Morgan's analysis. Sinckler has become essential to what England do. His work in both attack and defence is incredible.
A fact I've often noted in the past, and he's not been bad this 6N, just would be beind Youngs, Ford and Curry for my money
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Re: Jones

Post by loudnconfident »

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Oakboy
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Re: Jones

Post by Oakboy »

loudnconfident wrote:Contract extended till 2023
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52129858

Jones is not good for English rugby, IMO, but I'd rather have him in the job with total control till 2023 than have him on a 'halfway-house' contract as has been the case.
Danno
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Re: Jones

Post by Danno »

Oakboy wrote:
loudnconfident wrote:Contract extended till 2023
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52129858

Jones is not good for English rugby, IMO, but I'd rather have him in the job with total control till 2023 than have him on a 'halfway-house' contract as has been the case.
Aw man. Come back when you've had a proper drink and can get all ranty :)

More seriously, I wouldn't fancy our chances with a coach that only has a couple of years with the team. Mayyyyybe Rassie, but what he did with SA was more a matter of consistently strangling the opposition and I don't want us to go any further down that road than Jones is already taking us
Scrumhead
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Re: Jones

Post by Scrumhead »

I came here mostly for Oakboy’s reaction. Strangely muted ...

FWIW, Eddie frustrates the hell out of me on a regular basis, but I’ve always said I’m happy enough to keep him unless there’s an obviously better alternative. Right now, I don’t think there is.
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Oakboy
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Re: Jones

Post by Oakboy »

Scrumhead wrote:I came here mostly for Oakboy’s reaction. Strangely muted ...

FWIW, Eddie frustrates the hell out of me on a regular basis, but I’ve always said I’m happy enough to keep him unless there’s an obviously better alternative. Right now, I don’t think there is.
Agreed. I have always said the RFU should sack Jones OR give him the whole four years. I still think he has the best group of players since 2002 and that comparisons with other coaches fail to take account of their lesser resources or of Jones's initial (lucky?) run which skews win percentages a tad.

I don't think on a running average basis that Jones has got the best out of his resources and his style of management so far makes it unlikely that he will. One factor which might improve matters is that he seems to have gathered a more talented group of assistant coaches.

I have not changed my mind one iota on the basic fact that Jones is a 'win or nothing' head coach. IMO, he lacks the mentality for constructive long-term team building where he might have to make selections that take the team a step back before taking two forward.

I don't like the man or the coach and would prefer that he was not in the job. However, as you say, there is nobody available who is obviously better, unfortunately. If I appear to be back-tracking, fair enough. I would definitely have sacked him the day after the RWC final and risked finding someone better. Overall, as that was not done, giving him a contract till 2023 now is better than waiting till 2021.

You can lead the Farrell/Youngs debate! :D
p/d
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Re: Jones

Post by p/d »

If this year ain’t bad enough
fivepointer
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Re: Jones

Post by fivepointer »

At least this provides certainty. Its not as if there was a glut of top class coaches available to take over.

Would be nice if some genuine efforts were made over the next 3+ years to developing English coaches in the set up but i'm not holding my breath for that.
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Mellsblue
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Re: Jones

Post by Mellsblue »

Oakboy wrote:[

I have not changed my mind one iota
You do surprise me :)
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