Citings - So how long will Joe be on extended leave then?

[Banquo]

I'm agreeing it is, and yet I wonder just how many teen fumblings fall into such category, teenagers not being the only ones to figure it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. I could also add I've been groped by many more women than I myself have groped, though that does come with the caveat it is different when there's no way they presented a threat to me, I can further add the sad caveat it's been a while since any woman felt suitably unrestrained to make any such attempt

I'd think a lot do, and I know a good number are now 'pursued'. The individuals only become aware of the potentially life changing consequences after the event/complaint, in general.

I'm not I suspect talking about incidents about which the other participants would take much issue with. Indeed some of the worst examples I can think of saw me end in in long term relationships, one at school and one at uni

I'm merely pointing out that you need to catch up with what is actually happening today (and you were referencing pushing your hand up a jumper or somewhere else?) . Consent is very important, and teenagers need to understand this. This is a public service announcement.

[oldbackrow]

Had my balls aqueezed in a maul one day - totally disgusting and way worse than any other foul act i was subject to - if they gave marler 6 months i wouldnt be bothered. It's sexual assault basically

I've had both situations during my playing days and actually didn't prefer having my jaw wired together, spoilt my steak chewing! Having also had a friend in the wrong place at the wrong time who died as the result of one punch, I'd take a tweak of the gonads (even though that isn't exactly what Mar ler did)

[Which Tyler]

Quick question - were these acts before, or after the #MeToo movement?

I have a slight sneaking suspicion that society has changed a little since any of us were teenagers

[Digby]

I'd think a lot do, and I know a good number are now 'pursued'. The individuals only become aware of the potentially life changing consequences after the event/complaint, in general.

I'm not I suspect talking about incidents about which the other participants would take much issue with. Indeed some of the worst examples I can think of saw me end in in long term relationships, one at school and one at uni

I'm merely pointing out that you need to catch up with what is actually happening today (and you were referencing pushing your hand up a jumper or somewhere else?) . Consent is very important, and teenagers need to understand this. This is a public service announcement.

Typically we learn by pushing boundaries, much more so than by asking for permission. I suspect fumbling will continue, and I expect only some tiny % will ever face the law, and even if we wanted to process all fumblings via the law we'd lack resource to do so on a massive basis.

Basically I'm taking issue with the statement anyone enacting a groping should expect to face the law. Context and practically dealing with situations remains important.

[Mellsblue]

I'm not I suspect talking about incidents about which the other participants would take much issue with. Indeed some of the worst examples I can think of saw me end in in long term relationships, one at school and one at uni

I'm merely pointing out that you need to catch up with what is actually happening today (and you were referencing pushing your hand up a jumper or somewhere else?) . Consent is very important, and teenagers need to understand this. This is a public service announcement.

Basically I'm taking issue with the statement anyone enacting a groping should expect to face the law. Context and practically dealing with situations remains important.

If you’d put this at the very start you could’ve saved us all some time and some horrible mental images.

[paddy no 11]

Had my balls aqueezed in a maul one day - totally disgusting and way worse than any other foul act i was subject to - if they gave marler 6 months i wouldnt be bothered. It's sexual assault basically

I've had both situations during my playing days and actually didn't prefer having my jaw wired together, spoilt my steak chewing! Having also had a friend in the wrong place at the wrong time who died as the result of one punch, I'd take a tweak of the gonads (even though that isn't exactly what Mar ler did)

Conversly you'd take a bloody nose to injury requiring surgery from a torn gonad etc

[oldbackrow]

Had my balls aqueezed in a maul one day - totally disgusting and way worse than any other foul act i was subject to - if they gave marler 6 months i wouldnt be bothered. It's sexual assault basically

I've had both situations during my playing days and actually didn't prefer having my jaw wired together, spoilt my steak chewing! Having also had a friend in the wrong place at the wrong time who died as the result of one punch, I'd take a tweak of the gonads (even though that isn't exactly what Mar ler did)

Conversly you'd take a bloody nose to injury requiring surgery from a torn gonad etc

But Marker did it with nowhere near any force, he was daft to do something g like that but to rate it as 'sexual assault' (gratification from a sexual action) or that he deserved the 10 weeks and more is just over reaction as far as I can see.

[paddy no 11]

That's how I feel about it

(Plus he got away light for "gypsy boy", again my opinion)

[Digby]

Concern that he got away lightly with calling a gypsy a gypsy speaks to not liking Joe Marler, I don't actually know if that's relevant to his touching of AWJ. Anyone have an informed opinion on that?

[Banquo]

I'm not I suspect talking about incidents about which the other participants would take much issue with. Indeed some of the worst examples I can think of saw me end in in long term relationships, one at school and one at uni

I'm merely pointing out that you need to catch up with what is actually happening today (and you were referencing pushing your hand up a jumper or somewhere else?) . Consent is very important, and teenagers need to understand this. This is a public service announcement.

Typically we learn by pushing boundaries, much more so than by asking for permission. I suspect fumbling will continue, and I expect only some tiny % will ever face the law, and even if we wanted to process all fumblings via the law we'd lack resource to do so on a massive basis.

Basically I'm taking issue with the statement anyone enacting a groping should expect to face the law. Context and practically dealing with situations remains important.

Typically you are describing a state of play you'd like to exist, however it is not what is really happening. Its may be a tiny %age (or not) but it is a quickly increasing number of teenagers who are 'pushing the boundaries' and finding themselves on the sex offenders register and expelled from education. Anyone enacting groping without consent, could well expect to face the law, and they need to be aware of that; you may not like it, and I agree that its likely to be under resourced if it keeps on current trajectory, but teenagers need to be aware of the consequences of the boundaries they are pushing- driven a lot by the preponderance and accessibility of porn.

[paddy no 11]

Concern that he got away lightly with calling a gypsy a gypsy speaks to not liking Joe Marler, I don't actually know if that's relevant to his touching of AWJ. Anyone have an informed opinion on that?

Can't agree here, if someone said come on black joy or gay boy it wouldn't be ok

I don't know Joe marler but from observing his behaviour on the rugby pitch he seems to be a total dickhead yes

[p/d]

I have a slight sneaking suspicion that society has changed a little since any of us were teenagers

I think it has. When a nipper there used to be much jollity watching me mow a lawn in nothing more than safety goggles and a broad smile. Alas, nowadays, the lady down the road doesn't take too kindly to me tending her lawn similarly attired.

[Mr Mwenda]

I don't know joe marler but me and my dad did walk past him once on the way to the pub. He wasn't being a bellend. He didn't have a jacket on and it was a cool evening though.

Seems to this whole argument is going round in circles because we just think that violence is let off lightly. Better to ban the punchers for longer than ban the gropers for less, in my opinion.

[Digby]

I'm merely pointing out that you need to catch up with what is actually happening today (and you were referencing pushing your hand up a jumper or somewhere else?) . Consent is very important, and teenagers need to understand this. This is a public service announcement.

Typically we learn by pushing boundaries, much more so than by asking for permission. I suspect fumbling will continue, and I expect only some tiny % will ever face the law, and even if we wanted to process all fumblings via the law we'd lack resource to do so on a massive basis.

Basically I'm taking issue with the statement anyone enacting a groping should expect to face the law. Context and practically dealing with situations remains important.

Typically you are describing a state of play you'd like to exist, however it is not what is really happening. Its may be a tiny %age (or not) but it is a quickly increasing number of teenagers who are 'pushing the boundaries' and finding themselves on the sex offenders register and expelled from education. Anyone enacting groping without consent, could well expect to face the law, and they need to be aware of that; you may not like it, and I agree that its likely to be under resourced if it keeps on current trajectory, but teenagers need to be aware of the consequences of the boundaries they are pushing- driven a lot by the preponderance and accessibility of porn.

I'm setting out nothing in terms of what I'd like. I'm just saying if groping requires state intervention we're going to need to throw vastly more resources at the problem owing the normal behaviour of people, typically teens but some retain some very weird ideas even when growing older.

Which isn't to say teens don't need more teaching around boundaries, and yes much easier access to porn and even some very violent porn isn't going to help, far from it.

[Banquo]

Quick question - were these acts before, or after the #MeToo movement?

I have a slight sneaking suspicion that society has changed a little since any of us were teenagers

well quite, or even the 2003 act of parliament. I must confess to being a little surprised by the reaction.

[Banquo]

Typically we learn by pushing boundaries, much more so than by asking for permission. I suspect fumbling will continue, and I expect only some tiny % will ever face the law, and even if we wanted to process all fumblings via the law we'd lack resource to do so on a massive basis.

Basically I'm taking issue with the statement anyone enacting a groping should expect to face the law. Context and practically dealing with situations remains important.

Typically you are describing a state of play you'd like to exist, however it is not what is really happening. Its may be a tiny %age (or not) but it is a quickly increasing number of teenagers who are 'pushing the boundaries' and finding themselves on the sex offenders register and expelled from education. Anyone enacting groping without consent, could well expect to face the law, and they need to be aware of that; you may not like it, and I agree that its likely to be under resourced if it keeps on current trajectory, but teenagers need to be aware of the consequences of the boundaries they are pushing- driven a lot by the preponderance and accessibility of porn.

I'm setting out nothing in terms of what I'd like. I'm just saying if groping requires state intervention we're going to need to throw vastly more resources at the problem owing the normal behaviour of people, typically teens but some retain some very weird ideas even when growing older.

Which isn't to say teens don't need more teaching around boundaries, and yes much easier access to porn and even some very violent porn isn't going to help, far from it.

You seem to repeatedly miss the consent point. And the state are already 'intervening' on sexual assault by teenagers, as that is what groping without consent is (as well as other sexual assaults obviously). You are correct on context, but not so much pragmatism- once agencies are set in motion by say a safeguarding concern, it takes on a life of its own, with clear processes and protocols once a concern is even hinted at.

This probably has taken the thread irretrievably off topic, apols.

[Mellsblue]

I have a slight sneaking suspicion that society has changed a little since any of us were teenagers

I think it has. When a nipper there used to be much jollity watching me mow a lawn in nothing more than safety goggles and a broad smile. Alas, nowadays, the lady down the road doesn't take too kindly to me tending her lawn similarly attired.

She must be an older lady. From what i hear the younger ladies no longer have lawns but, rather, a Hollywood.

[Digby]

Typically you are describing a state of play you'd like to exist, however it is not what is really happening. Its may be a tiny %age (or not) but it is a quickly increasing number of teenagers who are 'pushing the boundaries' and finding themselves on the sex offenders register and expelled from education. Anyone enacting groping without consent, could well expect to face the law, and they need to be aware of that; you may not like it, and I agree that its likely to be under resourced if it keeps on current trajectory, but teenagers need to be aware of the consequences of the boundaries they are pushing- driven a lot by the preponderance and accessibility of porn.

I'm setting out nothing in terms of what I'd like. I'm just saying if groping requires state intervention we're going to need to throw vastly more resources at the problem owing the normal behaviour of people, typically teens but some retain some very weird ideas even when growing older.

Which isn't to say teens don't need more teaching around boundaries, and yes much easier access to porn and even some very violent porn isn't going to help, far from it.

You seem to repeatedly miss the consent point. And the state are already 'intervening' on sexual assault by teenagers, as that is what groping without consent is (as well as other sexual assaults obviously). You are correct on context, but not so much pragmatism- once agencies are set in motion by say a safeguarding concern, it takes on a life of its own, with clear processes and protocols once a concern is even hinted at.

This probably has taken the thread irretrievably off topic, apols.

I'm not ignoring consent, I'm merely assuming things progress from eye contact to kissing to petting behaviour to... without each stage necessarily having prior consent. In an ideal world there always would be consent, but for now I'd take if someone makes an action that's too much for their partner(s) that a no be it physical or verbal is enough to halt proceedings. Maybe I'm wrong and specific consent is much more prevalent than I assume, in which case happy days, but I doubt it.

The % of state interventions next to what is very likely in practice the number of sexual assaults is tiny, technically speaking there are probably more assaults each day than the state looks at in a year, certainly if we're starting with the assumption that actions at the level of Marler's equate to sexual assault.

[p/d]

I have a slight sneaking suspicion that society has changed a little since any of us were teenagers

I think it has. When a nipper there used to be much jollity watching me mow a lawn in nothing more than safety goggles and a broad smile. Alas, nowadays, the lady down the road doesn't take too kindly to me tending her lawn similarly attired.

She must be an older lady. From what i hear the younger ladies no longer have lawns but, rather, a Hollywood.

I confess to still appreciating the way the light reflects off blades’ bent one way and then the other. Oft reminds me of lazy days admiring those mid length lawns that featured in many an Electric Blue educational movie

[Digby]

Quick question - were these acts before, or after the #MeToo movement?

I have a slight sneaking suspicion that society has changed a little since any of us were teenagers

My society has changed. But then I'm no longer chasing after 16 year girls after drinking a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20, nor partaking of Freshers Week fuelled with 14 pints of whatever that stuff on tap was. I merely have my doubts teens and those in their 20s have changed much. And I was safely middle class for the duration, my prejudices of the upper and lower classes informs me their behaviour was even worse

[Cameo]

Are you not all just getting a bit confused by taking it out of context? From the sounds of it, in many of the situations Digby is describing there would at least be an argument that he reasonably believed there was consent (until it became clear that there was).

In Marler's case, he clearly did not believe that there was consent but, equally, his act was not a sexual one

[Spiffy]

Are you not all just getting a bit confused by taking it out of context? From the sounds of it, in many of the situations Digby is describing there would at least be an argument that he reasonably believed there was consent (until it became clear that there was).

In Marler's case, he clearly did not believe that there was consent but, equally, his act was not a sexual one

Who knows? I'm sure you could readily find some psychologists who would claim that any bloke intent on handling another's genitals has some degree of sexual motivation, whether it be conscious or subconscious (just read yer Freud!) I played rugby for close to 30 years but never had the urge to grab another bloke's tackle no matter the circumstances. I still find the notion repugnant and suspect most other rugby players do too. I have seen some "good natured" larking about in the showers etc. that in retrospect was really quite suspect and did not involve willing participants all round. Whatever the motivation, it's better to keep your mitts off another man's genitals in public. It's the evolved norm in our society. Handle at your peril!

[Oakboy]

Why did Marler decide to touch an opponent's genitals and why AWJ's in particular? He was a total prat to be seen doing it on camera and, to my eyes, that degree of stupidity remains his greater offence. However, was there some historical by-play between the two men to make the gesture (and the touch was so light that it was only a gesture) relevant? I suspect that it was something along the lines of AWJ having maintained that he'd still chin someone who groped him whatever the current laws and Marler was daft enough to put it to the test. Whatever, it was an act of idiocy, punished correctly. The length of sentence is probably about right in order to discourage others.

[Danno]

I think it has. When a nipper there used to be much jollity watching me mow a lawn in nothing more than safety goggles and a broad smile. Alas, nowadays, the lady down the road doesn't take too kindly to me tending her lawn similarly attired.

It's nothing to do with how you're dressed. You don't strim the edges or rake up the clippings, you lazy sod.

[Mellsblue]

We’ve wobbled off down some blind, tangential alleys in our time but this may be the most random of them all.