How is Leicester’s squad looking ahead of the restart?

[Banquo]

Looking at them circa 2009 after the night of the long knives, yeah, I'd say so. There are some absolute belters coming through the Leicester academy at the moment.

Puja

even the overseas quality? It is of course conditional on using the academy grads, not a feature of Tigers to date.

Did Saracens have outstanding overseas quality in 2009? IIRC they recruited for the first team, but they weren't superstars. The likes of Smit and Bosch didn't come till later. I've found the match report from their 2009 game against South Africa and the signings they onboarded were the likes of Brits, Nieto, Gill, Botha, JBurger, Melck, Joubert, Hougaard, Tagicakibau, and Horak. None of them were heralded superstars with general public expectations of being great upon signing.

We have got better at using the academy grads under Murphy - Olowofela, Hardwick, Heyes all got significant minutes last season, with Reffell and Steward starting to see gametime too. There'll be a bit of a lag as a lot of the really good ones are still 18 and 19, so the proof will be in how Borthwick et al develop them to play in 2021 onwards.

Puja

Hence asking , though I didn't mention the word outstanding- Brits stands out somewhat across both squads and iirc Glen Jackson was playing well too. They got to the Prem final that season, so that's your new benchmark

[Puja]

even the overseas quality? It is of course conditional on using the academy grads, not a feature of Tigers to date.

Did Saracens have outstanding overseas quality in 2009? IIRC they recruited for the first team, but they weren't superstars. The likes of Smit and Bosch didn't come till later. I've found the match report from their 2009 game against South Africa and the signings they onboarded were the likes of Brits, Nieto, Gill, Botha, JBurger, Melck, Joubert, Hougaard, Tagicakibau, and Horak. None of them were heralded superstars with general public expectations of being great upon signing.

We have got better at using the academy grads under Murphy - Olowofela, Hardwick, Heyes all got significant minutes last season, with Reffell and Steward starting to see gametime too. There'll be a bit of a lag as a lot of the really good ones are still 18 and 19, so the proof will be in how Borthwick et al develop them to play in 2021 onwards.

Puja

Hence asking - though Brits stands out somewhat across both squads.

Was he anything special in 2009 though? I don't recall whether he'd've been rated anything higher than Cyle Brink is currently.

Puja

[Banquo]

Did Saracens have outstanding overseas quality in 2009? IIRC they recruited for the first team, but they weren't superstars. The likes of Smit and Bosch didn't come till later. I've found the match report from their 2009 game against South Africa and the signings they onboarded were the likes of Brits, Nieto, Gill, Botha, JBurger, Melck, Joubert, Hougaard, Tagicakibau, and Horak. None of them were heralded superstars with general public expectations of being great upon signing.

We have got better at using the academy grads under Murphy - Olowofela, Hardwick, Heyes all got significant minutes last season, with Reffell and Steward starting to see gametime too. There'll be a bit of a lag as a lot of the really good ones are still 18 and 19, so the proof will be in how Borthwick et al develop them to play in 2021 onwards.

Puja

Hence asking - though Brits stands out somewhat across both squads.

Was he anything special in 2009 though? I don't recall whether he'd've been rated anything higher than Cyle Brink is currently.

Puja

Yep.- he was 28 then and had played for SA. He didn't fit their massive mould at the time tho. Anyway, you are confident that your overseas signings match those of Sarries in 2009, and that the academy will come through strongly, so I look forward to a top 4 finish and challenging in Europe from next season.

[Puja]

Hence asking - though Brits stands out somewhat across both squads.

Was he anything special in 2009 though? I don't recall whether he'd've been rated anything higher than Cyle Brink is currently.

Puja

Yep.- he was 28 then and had played for SA. He didn't fit their massive mould at the time tho. Anyway, you are confident that your overseas signings match those of Sarries in 2009, and that the academy will come through strongly, so I look forward to a top 4 finish and challenging in Europe from next season.

I have noted that our academy is a couple of years away from fruition, mind. I will be happy with a top 6 finish personally.

Puja

[Banquo]

Was he anything special in 2009 though? I don't recall whether he'd've been rated anything higher than Cyle Brink is currently.

Puja

Yep.- he was 28 then and had played for SA. He didn't fit their massive mould at the time tho. Anyway, you are confident that your overseas signings match those of Sarries in 2009, and that the academy will come through strongly, so I look forward to a top 4 finish and challenging in Europe from next season.

I have noted that our academy is a couple of years away from fruition, mind. I will be happy with a top 6 finish personally.

Puja

imo even that is ballsy, given your start point. You have a Liverpool-esque entitlement about you at present

[Puja]

Yep.- he was 28 then and had played for SA. He didn't fit their massive mould at the time tho. Anyway, you are confident that your overseas signings match those of Sarries in 2009, and that the academy will come through strongly, so I look forward to a top 4 finish and challenging in Europe from next season.

I have noted that our academy is a couple of years away from fruition, mind. I will be happy with a top 6 finish personally.

Puja

imo even that is ballsy, given your start point. You have a Liverpool-esque entitlement about you at present

I don't think there's any doubt that our squad ridiculously underperformed under Murphy and was far less than the sum of its parts. The major question is not so much about the quality of the players (as looking at them one-on-one Nadolo > Tagicakibau, Murimurivalu > Horak, Moroni/Scott > Hougaard, etc, plus we still have Genge/Cole/Youngs/Ford from the old squad), but whether Borthwick/Taylor/Evans will have a transformative effect both in terms of the coaching and the culture in the same way that Venter/McCall/ Farrell/Sanderson did.

And that's obviously the complete unknown. But you can't say the raw materials aren't there for them to work with.

Puja

[Banquo]

I have noted that our academy is a couple of years away from fruition, mind. I will be happy with a top 6 finish personally.

Puja

imo even that is ballsy, given your start point. You have a Liverpool-esque entitlement about you at present

I don't think there's any doubt that our squad ridiculously underperformed under Murphy and was far less than the sum of its parts. The major question is not so much about the quality of the players (as looking at them one-on-one Nadolo > Tagicakibau, Murimurivalu > Horak, Moroni/Scott > Hougaard, etc, plus we still have Genge/Cole/Youngs/Ford from the old squad), but whether Borthwick/Taylor/Evans will have a transformative effect both in terms of the coaching and the culture in the same way that Venter/McCall/ Farrell/Sanderson did.

And that's obviously the complete unknown. But you can't say the raw materials aren't there for them to work with.

Puja

You've gone off on a bit of a tangent in comparing them to Sarries 2009 tbh, even if I agreed with your player better than analysis and assuming its accurate. You've lost world class players since last season, and were awful then, especially up front.

Besides, the key point is that I'm mildly pulling your chain. Though from an outside point of view, it does look like a bit more of the same; sign some overseas players and hope it all works out.

[fivepointer]

Some of those signings just have to come good, dont they?

I guess that the hope. Tigers are in a good position to at least experiment and to invest in some meaningful game time for youngsters, at least for the remainder of this season. They are not going down. They are 11th and may not improve much on that. Top 6 is probably beyond them. Expectations will be low, so the players and coaches have a bit of breathing space.
Use the time wisely and they might be in a reasonable position for a much better 20/21 season.

[Puja]

imo even that is ballsy, given your start point. You have a Liverpool-esque entitlement about you at present

I don't think there's any doubt that our squad ridiculously underperformed under Murphy and was far less than the sum of its parts. The major question is not so much about the quality of the players (as looking at them one-on-one Nadolo > Tagicakibau, Murimurivalu > Horak, Moroni/Scott > Hougaard, etc, plus we still have Genge/Cole/Youngs/Ford from the old squad), but whether Borthwick/Taylor/Evans will have a transformative effect both in terms of the coaching and the culture in the same way that Venter/McCall/ Farrell/Sanderson did.

And that's obviously the complete unknown. But you can't say the raw materials aren't there for them to work with.

Puja

You've gone off on a bit of a tangent in comparing them to Sarries 2009 tbh, even if I agreed with your player better than analysis and assuming its accurate.

I don't think it's too much of a tangent. A massive player clearout, folowed by a change in recruitment tactics to bring in 1st team players rather than squad players. The success of it will depend on if Borthwick lives up to the hype, as the coaching was more important to Saracens than the personnel.

And, yes, acknowledging the chain pulling.

Some of those signings just have to come good, dont they?

I guess that the hope. Tigers are in a good position to at least experiment and to invest in some meaningful game time for youngsters, at least for the remainder of this season. They are not going down. They are 11th and may not improve much on that. Top 6 is probably beyond them. Expectations will be low, so the players and coaches have a bit of breathing space.
Use the time wisely and they might be in a reasonable position for a much better 20/21 season.

To clarify, I did mean top 6 in 20/21, not somehow getting to top 6 for the tail end of this season!

Puja

[Banquo]

Quite interesting looking at Sarries squad for 09/10. Goode was there, and George and Faz Junior already in the senior squad
Prop: Aguero, Skuse, Mercey, Nieto, Gill, Venter, Mitchell
Hooker: Brits, Reynecke, Ongaro, George
Second row: Borthwick (c), Ryder, Vyvyan, Smith, Botha, Spencer
Flankers: Saull, Joubert, Van Heerden, Barrell, Wray
No. 8: Owen, Melck
Scrumhalf: De Kock, Rauluni, Marshall, Barrett
Flyhalf: Jackson, Houggard
Centre: Powell, Barritt, Sorrell, Ratovou, Casson, Farrell Jnr.
Wing: Haughton, Cato, Penney, Tagicakibau, Thrower
Fullback: Wyles, Goode, Horak

[Epaminondas Pules]

I’m with Banquo on this. We’ve lost world class talent and brought in some squad fill and a couple of names. It has a real feel of having been here before, and not just once. There are some good kids coming through but they’re very, very unproven, which makes it somewhat of a lottery. How many actually get any game time let alone make it is a big unknown.

And most of all I’m not seeing how the issues of the last few seasons have been addressed. I’d love to be proved wrong.

[Tigersman]

I mean for me Tigers have lost 3 world class players
Tuilagi
May
Veainu

And have replaced them with
Moroni
Nadolo
Murimurivalu

IMO good replacements.
Outside that I think bar Enever for Spencer I view most of the signings as upgrades or on par.

[Scrumhead]

To be fair, as good as he is, I wouldn’t have said Veainu is ‘world class’. If Murimurivalu settles he could end up being a very good replacement.

I also wouldn’t have picked out Enever as a weaker signing. Spencer was very good for Worcester but I don’t know if he really replicated that for Tigers. Enever is not flashy, but as a big, tough workhorse, I think he’ll be a good signing.

[Banquo]

I mean for me Tigers have lost 3 world class players
Tuilagi
May
Veainu

And have replaced them with
Moroni
Nadolo
Murimurivalu

IMO good replacements.
Outside that I think bar Enever for Spencer I view most of the signings as upgrades or on par.

So you've replaced world class with good and had moderate gains on the rest if accepting your view. Given that Tigers were a bit poor.....how optimistic do you feel?

[Stom]

I mean for me Tigers have lost 3 world class players
Tuilagi
May
Veainu

And have replaced them with
Moroni
Nadolo
Murimurivalu

IMO good replacements.
Outside that I think bar Enever for Spencer I view most of the signings as upgrades or on par.

So you've replaced world class with good and had moderate gains on the rest if accepting your view. Given that Tigers were a bit poor.....how optimistic do you feel?

Tbf, the rest of their signings are pretty much upgrades on what came before.

But they’re not game changing upgrades. Mainly because the problem with Tigers has been coaching and behind the scenes.

[Banquo]

I mean for me Tigers have lost 3 world class players
Tuilagi
May
Veainu

And have replaced them with
Moroni
Nadolo
Murimurivalu

IMO good replacements.
Outside that I think bar Enever for Spencer I view most of the signings as upgrades or on par.

So you've replaced world class with good and had moderate gains on the rest if accepting your view. Given that Tigers were a bit poor.....how optimistic do you feel?

Tbf, the rest of their signings are pretty much upgrades on what came before.

But they’re not game changing upgrades. Mainly because the problem with Tigers has been coaching and behind the scenes.

..and also because their squad up front really was very average. I did note that they had moderate gains, and was asking a question of a Tigers fan as to how they are feeling about the near term.

[Tigersman]

I mean for me Tigers have lost 3 world class players
Tuilagi
May
Veainu

And have replaced them with
Moroni
Nadolo
Murimurivalu

IMO good replacements.
Outside that I think bar Enever for Spencer I view most of the signings as upgrades or on par.

So you've replaced world class with good and had moderate gains on the rest if accepting your view. Given that Tigers were a bit poor.....how optimistic do you feel?

Very.
2 of those players combined played just 40 games in the last 2 seasons.
You don't need to have a XV of world class, in fact with the cap you can't.
I would rather have a stronger squad instead of the feast or famine we seemed to have with those world class players.


As stom has said he key thing will be the coaching team.
Will Steve Borthwick be able to take Leicester forwards to the level he got Japan and England's forwards?
Will Rod Taylor be able to transfer his attack from Shute cup to the premiership level?
If those two click then we should do well.

"and also because their squad up front really was very average."
Well that is a question was it the players for the coaches? what is it they say a good coach can get an extra 20% or something like that I can't remember.
Brink and Wiese add two very physical ball carriers which we have lacked.

On paper
Genge, Youngs, cole, Lavanini, Enever, Liebenberg, Taufua, Brink
Leatigaga, Mamu, Heyes, Wells, Green, Lewis, Reffell, Wiese
Gigena, Kerr, (Believed we have signed a new prop), Henderson, Martin, Coghlan, Wallace, Smith
Are IMHO 3 very good packs

[Scrumhead]

I’m obviously not a Tigers’ fan, but I’m inclined to agree with Tigersman to some degree.

The foundation of Exeter’s success was built upon exactly this kind of squad. The likes of Steenson, Yeandle, Dollman etc. were as important as their England players and possibly even more so given the fact they were almost always available for selection. Keeping a core squad players together as much possible with the odd international to add some extra sparkle is actually a very solid strategy for the Premiership.

If Borthwick can get the new guys to settle quickly, I think Tigers will do quite well. Maybe not in the remainder of the 19/20 season but I think they’ll be well set for 20/21.

[Epaminondas Pules]

So you've replaced world class with good and had moderate gains on the rest if accepting your view. Given that Tigers were a bit poor.....how optimistic do you feel?

Tbf, the rest of their signings are pretty much upgrades on what came before.

But they’re not game changing upgrades. Mainly because the problem with Tigers has been coaching and behind the scenes.

..and also because their squad up front really was very average. I did note that they had moderate gains, and was asking a question of a Tigers fan as to how they are feeling about the near term.

Not very, optimistic that is. Nadolo is a great name, but how many games will he actually play? He played something like 70 games in 4 years with Montpellier and is of course 32 now. It's as short term as it gets.

We had 'world class' backs last season and the season before and yet failed miserably. Our backline play was somewhat turgid (if I'm extremely kind to the shit show that it actually was), defence woeful and pack has been sub standard and then some. I'm not seeing that addressed really. Caveat to say that Taufua and Lavanini were good additions previously and would take time to bed in.

Then to compound it I'm seeing another layer of squad players brought in over the youth. We do have exciting youngsters, though we have also been a real team rather than some sparkling individuals at that level. And to develop they have to play.

I think I'm just down on it all. We look, what we are, which is a bottom 6 club.

Again, I hope to be proved wrong.

[fivepointer]

The most important signing could turn out to be Borthwick.
I've felt that Tigers have been poorly coached for a few seasons now. Some of their play has been below what you would expect from the players at their disposal. Not top 4, but certainly not bottom 2.
Its a big test for Borthwick but he is a fresh face with quite a bit of experience under his belt. If he can get some of the new players firing, along with the internationals producing and introducing the talented young players the club are turning out, then we may see some advancement.
As I said above, they have some breathing space with what is left of this season. They can use it to get things set for the following season when hopefully they can move on.

[Banquo]

How much head coaching experience has Borthwick got? there's a lot of new players to gel together.

Personally, I reckon it'd be a big ask for any head coach; I'm most interested in what the fan's expectations are short and mid term. We seem to have a mixture of realism and optimism

Also, and this is not a Tigers specific gripe, but non EQP, non top pedigree players recruited in depress me a bit

[Epaminondas Pules]

The most important signing could turn out to be Borthwick.
I've felt that Tigers have been poorly coached for a few seasons now. Some of their play has been below what you would expect from the players at their disposal. Not top 4, but certainly not bottom 2.
Its a big test for Borthwick but he is a fresh face with quite a bit of experience under his belt. If he can get some of the new players firing, along with the internationals producing and introducing the talented young players the club are turning out, then we may see some advancement.
As I said above, they have some breathing space with what is left of this season. They can use it to get things set for the following season when hopefully they can move on.

That is the big one, or rather the coaching team as a whole. With the right coaching you can make more out of what you've got.

With the end of season we'd be very wise to let players like Steward play a lot, and also look at embedding combinations with the new signings.

[Epaminondas Pules]

How much head coaching experience has Borthwick got?

Round about the same as me at this level.

[Scrumhead]

The most important signing could turn out to be Borthwick.
I've felt that Tigers have been poorly coached for a few seasons now. Some of their play has been below what you would expect from the players at their disposal. Not top 4, but certainly not bottom 2.
Its a big test for Borthwick but he is a fresh face with quite a bit of experience under his belt. If he can get some of the new players firing, along with the internationals producing and introducing the talented young players the club are turning out, then we may see some advancement.
As I said above, they have some breathing space with what is left of this season. They can use it to get things set for the following season when hopefully they can move on.

That is the big one, or rather the coaching team as a whole. With the right coaching you can make more out of what you've got.

With the end of season we'd be very wise to let players like Steward play a lot, and also look at embedding combinations with the new signings.

Agreed. Going back to the Exeter comparison, I think that’s exactly what Baxter was able to achieve earlier in their road to success.

The other key element IMO is going to be how often they can call-upon George Ford. They’re a different team when he plays and there have been lots of games in the last couple of seasons where it’s almost felt like a one man show. The back-up 10s are simply not in the same league. Zack Henry has a good highlight reel in the French D2, but it remains to be seen whether he can make a big step up to the Premiership and Johnny McPhillips and Hardwick are OK rather than good.

It sounds like England are going to have quite a few games coming up at the end of this year/early next year which could deprive them of Ford when they really need his game management.

[Banquo]

The most important signing could turn out to be Borthwick.
I've felt that Tigers have been poorly coached for a few seasons now. Some of their play has been below what you would expect from the players at their disposal. Not top 4, but certainly not bottom 2.
Its a big test for Borthwick but he is a fresh face with quite a bit of experience under his belt. If he can get some of the new players firing, along with the internationals producing and introducing the talented young players the club are turning out, then we may see some advancement.
As I said above, they have some breathing space with what is left of this season. They can use it to get things set for the following season when hopefully they can move on.

That is the big one, or rather the coaching team as a whole. With the right coaching you can make more out of what you've got.

With the end of season we'd be very wise to let players like Steward play a lot, and also look at embedding combinations with the new signings.

Agreed. Going back to the Exeter comparison, I think that’s exactly what Baxter was able to achieve earlier in their road to success.

The other key element IMO is going to be how often they can call-upon George Ford. They’re a different team when he plays and there have been lots of games in the last couple of seasons where it’s almost felt like a one man show. The back-up 10s are simply not in the same league. Zack Henry has a good highlight reel in the French D2, but it remains to be seen whether he can make a big step up to the Premiership and Johnny McPhillips and Hardwick are OK rather than good.

It sounds like England are going to have quite a few games coming up at the end of this year/early next year which could deprive them of Ford when they really need his game management.

Exeter evolved from a very different start point though.