General reffing woes, law changes etc.

[Banquo]

Looking at some of the clips from 90 and 91, I wonder how it would change rugby if they got rid of lifting in the lineouts again. Would bring a bit of chaos and incentives kicking to touch (though not from penalties). No real view but there's only so much covid-19 news you can follow!

agreed; scrummaging bods might also be able to tell us if it would be a good idea to go back to old school scrummaging set up which would hopefully stop the huge pressure now built up and causing the collapses etc. Basically give them no time to fanny around.

[fivepointer]

The time taken for a scrum to form up nowadays is ridiculous. That should be speeded up along with the elongated engagement process.
On lifting at the l/o, i have to declare i'm a big fan. Its tidied up an area of the game that was virtually a free for all and made players take largely positive action.

[Cameo]

The time taken for a scrum to form up nowadays is ridiculous. That should be speeded up along with the elongated engagement process.
On lifting at the l/o, i have to declare i'm a big fan. Its tidied up an area of the game that was virtually a free for all and made players take largely positive action.

I probably agree and think it turns it into a fun additional skill but...isn't/wasn't the basis of rugby that it was a bit of a free for all?

Rugby has taken the approach that it needed to make more sense and be more controlled (easier to manage/less arbitrary) when it became professional. Things like GAA (albeit not professional) or Aussie Rules have kept the chaos. I find them a bit frustrating as decisions can seem a bit random but maybe there is something that to be said a fast paced chaotic game. After all, we are all just chasing a ball around!

[Oakboy]

The time taken for a scrum to form up nowadays is ridiculous. That should be speeded up along with the elongated engagement process.
On lifting at the l/o, i have to declare i'm a big fan. Its tidied up an area of the game that was virtually a free for all and made players take largely positive action.

What is the argument against the rows engaging in sequence, with packs standing as if for uncontested scrums until the ball comes in?

[Which Tyler]

What is the argument against the rows engaging in sequence, with packs standing as if for uncontested scrums until the ball comes in?

The same as the argument that suggested it's impossible for modern hookers to hook the ball - the current pro.s have never even tried it.

As with that argument, of it's tried, they'll find a way of making it work, rather than seeing free kicks / penalties against them

[Mikey Brown]

Okay. How about;

- Holding the carrier up in the tackle ("choke tackle") can no longer win a penalty. Free kick to attacking team if it's unplayable.

- Illegal for scrum-halves to kick the ball.

I'm just so sick of both of these parts of the game, and it should hopefully see Ireland relegated to a tier 3 side within a season.

[Puja]

Okay. How about;

- Holding the carrier up in the tackle ("choke tackle") can no longer win a penalty. Free kick to attacking team if it's unplayable.

- Illegal for scrum-halves to kick the ball.

I'm just so sick of both of these parts of the game, and it should hopefully see Ireland relegated to a tier 3 side within a season.

Yes, join me! I would 100% be in favour of saying there must be a pass after a breakdown before the ball can be kicked.

I posted this on the Italy thread, but then jngf posted something and it got flooded by back row arguments, so here is a better place for it:

I had the thought the other day about the offside line and how it's difficult to referee (or occasionally just opted out of) - instead of setting it as the back foot of the last player from your team involved in the ruck (tricky to see, never adhered to), would it be easier to set it as 2 metres back from the ball? That way the referee isn't expected to keep his eye on the ball, the ruck, and where the hindmost foot on the other side of the ruck is at the same time. Plus would eliminate the caterpillar, which wasn't something I'd considered until I started typing this, but would be a nice ancillary benefit.

Puja

[Cameo]

On refs, I have a question about Barnes' first yellow card call today (the slap out of play).

The ball came forward off the Ireland wing (Keenan I think) and then Bouthier slapped it out before Keenan had the chance to regather. I get that it is a penalty offence to deliberately pass or slap it out but, the second it touches his hand having come forward off green, is it not a knock on - blue scrum?

[Puja]

On refs, I have a question about Barnes' first yellow card call today (the slap out of play).

The ball came forward off the Ireland wing (Keenan I think) and then Bouthier slapped it out before Keenan had the chance to regather. I get that it is a penalty offence to deliberately pass or slap it out but, the second it touches his hand having come forward off green, is it not a knock on - blue scrum?

Foul play overrides a knock-on, same as if he'd punched him.

Puja

[Digby]

On refs, I have a question about Barnes' first yellow card call today (the slap out of play).

The ball came forward off the Ireland wing (Keenan I think) and then Bouthier slapped it out before Keenan had the chance to regather. I get that it is a penalty offence to deliberately pass or slap it out but, the second it touches his hand having come forward off green, is it not a knock on - blue scrum?

Foul play overrides a knock-on, same as if he'd punched him.

Puja

I did wonder about that in terms of the penalty try because there would have been a knock on whatever, and then you give the yellow card and penalty. I hadn't in the moment reasoned you'd dismiss that and consider would a try have been scored if he hadn't followed through with slapping it out.

Awful play from Bouthier to get the knock on and then panic/forget what he was doing (though he was good overall)

[Cameo]

On refs, I have a question about Barnes' first yellow card call today (the slap out of play).

The ball came forward off the Ireland wing (Keenan I think) and then Bouthier slapped it out before Keenan had the chance to regather. I get that it is a penalty offence to deliberately pass or slap it out but, the second it touches his hand having come forward off green, is it not a knock on - blue scrum?

Foul play overrides a knock-on, same as if he'd punched him.

Puja

Ah thanks. I get confused about that rule. Seems intuitive for a punch but less so for more technical things. I'd be interested to see if they would apply it to a deliberate knock on of an obviously forward pass.

[Puja]

On refs, I have a question about Barnes' first yellow card call today (the slap out of play).

The ball came forward off the Ireland wing (Keenan I think) and then Bouthier slapped it out before Keenan had the chance to regather. I get that it is a penalty offence to deliberately pass or slap it out but, the second it touches his hand having come forward off green, is it not a knock on - blue scrum?

Foul play overrides a knock-on, same as if he'd punched him.

Puja

Ah thanks. I get confused about that rule. Seems intuitive for a punch but less so for more technical things. I'd be interested to see if they would apply it to a deliberate knock on of an obviously forward pass.

That's a really fun exampe; I'm not sure. I mean technically, I think they would - I've seen pulling down in the lineout given despite a not-straight throw - but it's be a bold ref to give it.

Puja

[Cameo]

Foul play overrides a knock-on, same as if he'd punched him.

Puja

Ah thanks. I get confused about that rule. Seems intuitive for a punch but less so for more technical things. I'd be interested to see if they would apply it to a deliberate knock on of an obviously forward pass.

That's a really fun exampe; I'm not sure. I mean technically, I think they would - I've seen pulling down in the lineout given despite a not-straight throw - but it's be a bold ref to give it.

Puja

Yeah, easy rule to apply when it is something violent/dangerous (I.e. a "you just can't get away with that" kind of thing). Distinction between deliberately knocking on or slapping it out and, say, deliberately holding the ball on the ground is less clearcut.

I presume if the ball had bounced (so "crystallising" the knock on) before Bouthier flicked it out, he would have got away with it

[Puja]

Ah thanks. I get confused about that rule. Seems intuitive for a punch but less so for more technical things. I'd be interested to see if they would apply it to a deliberate knock on of an obviously forward pass.

That's a really fun exampe; I'm not sure. I mean technically, I think they would - I've seen pulling down in the lineout given despite a not-straight throw - but it's be a bold ref to give it.

Puja

Yeah, easy rule to apply when it is something violent/dangerous (I.e. a "you just can't get away with that" kind of thing). Distinction between deliberately knocking on or slapping it out and, say, deliberately holding the ball on the ground is less clearcut.

I presume if the ball had bounced (so "crystallising" the knock on) before Bouthier flicked it out, he would have got away with it

I guess so. I think that would've removed the cynicism from it - changing it from "deliberately cheating to prevent a possible try" to "deciding not to take the advantage in a very d*ckish fashion".

Puja

[Digby]

Next time he'll know to make a fuss about pretending he's not slapping it into touch on purpose

[Raggs]

Just needed to slap it in field. Tough to think that fast though.

I really don't want to get rid of the jackal, i think the new interpretations look good. And it makes the ruck meaningful reducing league defence.

On scrums the game used to be slower with most the pack following the ball so they were already in place for the scrum. Now they're spread across the pitch. Perhaps have the ref call the props in place, then call in the locks and backrow. Basically controlthe speed of them setting up.

[16th man]

I see there are AB fans bemoaning the state of the game following their red card today. Apparently they feel lining a guy up from a few metres away then sticking your shoulder in his throat is border line yellow tops.

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. Seems as clear a red as you'll see.

[morepork]

Who is bemoaning?

[Puja]

Who is bemoaning?

Just watching the highlights and the Kiwi Sky Sports commentator is watching the slow-motion of him launching a shoulder directly into someone's throat and saying, "For me, that is simply a slight error of judgement and no more than a penalty."

Puja

[Raggs]

Who is bemoaning?

Just watching the highlights and the Kiwi Sky Sports commentator is watching the slow-motion of him launching a shoulder directly into someone's throat and saying, "For me, that is simply a slight error of judgement and no more than a penalty."

Puja

Think it was the kiwi sky sports team I was watching? All the old pundits were saying they aren't reds, they don't like reds, game ruined etc. Just dinosaurs.

[Mellsblue]

I blame Wayne Barnes.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

Who is bemoaning?

Just watching the highlights and the Kiwi Sky Sports commentator is watching the slow-motion of him launching a shoulder directly into someone's throat and saying, "For me, that is simply a slight error of judgement and no more than a penalty."

Puja

Think it was the kiwi sky sports team I was watching? All the old pundits were saying they aren't reds, they don't like reds, game ruined etc. Just dinosaurs.

It was the Aussies commentating in the UK coverage and they were garbage most of the time. I think there's a difference between the two incidents and Swintons was the worse of the two, Ofa's was a yellow just for the fact he stood his ground he didnt move into the tackle, he misjudged the height, Swinton on the other hand he came in from some distance away with no attempt to wrap just to try and damage Whitelock. I'll be surprised if they get the same length ban.

[16th man]

Just watching the highlights and the Kiwi Sky Sports commentator is watching the slow-motion of him launching a shoulder directly into someone's throat and saying, "For me, that is simply a slight error of judgement and no more than a penalty."

Puja

Think it was the kiwi sky sports team I was watching? All the old pundits were saying they aren't reds, they don't like reds, game ruined etc. Just dinosaurs.

It was the Aussies commentating in the UK coverage and they were garbage most of the time. I think there's a difference between the two incidents and Swintons was the worse of the two, Ofa's was a yellow just for the fact he stood his ground he didnt move into the tackle, he misjudged the height, Swinton on the other hand he came in from some distance away with no attempt to wrap just to try and damage Whitelock. I'll be surprised if they get the same length ban.

Well ones an AB, so there's no question about that is there?

Ofa had a good 4 or 5 metres of clear space to judge the contact, and he definitely drives into the tackle with his shoulder into the throat. It's a red.

[Puja]

Think it was the kiwi sky sports team I was watching? All the old pundits were saying they aren't reds, they don't like reds, game ruined etc. Just dinosaurs.

It was the Aussies commentating in the UK coverage and they were garbage most of the time. I think there's a difference between the two incidents and Swintons was the worse of the two, Ofa's was a yellow just for the fact he stood his ground he didnt move into the tackle, he misjudged the height, Swinton on the other hand he came in from some distance away with no attempt to wrap just to try and damage Whitelock. I'll be surprised if they get the same length ban.

Well ones an AB, so there's no question about that is there?

Ofa had a good 4 or 5 metres of clear space to judge the contact, and he definitely drives into the tackle with his shoulder into the throat. It's a red.

Agreed - it *was* a misjudgement of height, but there was definitely force involved and shoulder first. Both reds, albeit Swinton's was still worse.

Puja