Government support for the game

[fivepointer]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/54998979

Rugby Union: £135m - Rugby Football Union: £44m; Premiership clubs: £59m; Championship clubs: £9m; Clubs below Championship: £23m

Rugby League: £12m

[Puja]

WE'RE RICH! I'm assuming the Prem are splitting it 13 ways for their shareholders, so that's £4.5m each, which is probably enough to see them through till Feb/March time. With luck we'll be allowed crowds back by then.

I have to say I can kinda see the league fans' point if they get snippy about that allocation. Admittedly, they did get something when their season was going in the summer (£20m, IIRC), but it's still a big old gap between the two that possibly reflects the difference in connections with a Conservative government between the RFU and the RFL.

Puja

[Banquo]

WE'RE RICH! I'm assuming the Prem are splitting it 13 ways for their shareholders, so that's £4.5m each, which is probably enough to see them through till Feb/March time. With luck we'll be allowed crowds back by then.

I have to say I can kinda see the league fans' point if they get snippy about that allocation. Admittedly, they did get something when their season was going in the summer (£20m, IIRC), but it's still a big old gap between the two that possibly reflects the difference in connections with a Conservative government between the RFU and the RFL.

Puja

or the fact its a much smaller game from a participation point of view and lost a lot less money owing to covid?

[Puja]

WE'RE RICH! I'm assuming the Prem are splitting it 13 ways for their shareholders, so that's £4.5m each, which is probably enough to see them through till Feb/March time. With luck we'll be allowed crowds back by then.

I have to say I can kinda see the league fans' point if they get snippy about that allocation. Admittedly, they did get something when their season was going in the summer (£20m, IIRC), but it's still a big old gap between the two that possibly reflects the difference in connections with a Conservative government between the RFU and the RFL.

Puja

or the fact its a much smaller game from a participation point of view and lost a lot less money owing to covid?

From a pro club perspective though? I mean, participation and the losses from the AIs, definitely fair enough, but league club crowds aren't that much smaller than union club crowds and our clubs got £59m compared to £12m for their whole sport.

I mean, I'm not bothered from a personal perspective - I'd have no interest if league disappeared entirely - but I'd imagine league supporters will be a little bit chippier than usual.

Puja

[Banquo]

WE'RE RICH! I'm assuming the Prem are splitting it 13 ways for their shareholders, so that's £4.5m each, which is probably enough to see them through till Feb/March time. With luck we'll be allowed crowds back by then.

I have to say I can kinda see the league fans' point if they get snippy about that allocation. Admittedly, they did get something when their season was going in the summer (£20m, IIRC), but it's still a big old gap between the two that possibly reflects the difference in connections with a Conservative government between the RFU and the RFL.

Puja

or the fact its a much smaller game from a participation point of view and lost a lot less money owing to covid?

From a pro club perspective though? I mean, participation and the losses from the AIs, definitely fair enough, but league club crowds aren't that much smaller than union club crowds and our clubs got £59m compared to £12m for their whole sport.

I mean, I'm not bothered from a personal perspective - I'd have no interest if league disappeared entirely - but I'd imagine league supporters will be a little bit chippier than usual.

Puja

Participation as a whole I was referring to. But I don't know how much RL clubs invest in things like academies tbf, nor their wage bills compared to RU clubs.

[Digby]

The clubs were asking for a lot more than that, more than twice that actually.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

or the fact its a much smaller game from a participation point of view and lost a lot less money owing to covid?

From a pro club perspective though? I mean, participation and the losses from the AIs, definitely fair enough, but league club crowds aren't that much smaller than union club crowds and our clubs got £59m compared to £12m for their whole sport.

I mean, I'm not bothered from a personal perspective - I'd have no interest if league disappeared entirely - but I'd imagine league supporters will be a little bit chippier than usual.

Puja

Participation as a whole I was referring to. But I don't know how much RL clubs invest in things like academies tbf, nor their wage bills compared to RU clubs.

I went into the Rhinos Academy last year and met their coaches, its nowhere near as big as Union numbers wise with so many in the system. Off the top of my head they had maybe 100 in the system compared to Exeter Chiefs 900 in the system.

[Puja]

And crowds of up to 4k being allowed from December in lowest tier Covid areas. Good news for Bath, Bristol and Glaws, less so for Sale and Leicester.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

And crowds of up to 4k being allowed from December in lowest tier Covid areas. Good news for Bath, Bristol and Glaws, less so for Sale and Leicester.

Puja

Which is great news.

As is grassroots sports being opened up again.

I've missed tripping over my feet as I try not to run - not to mention trying to hold my tongue when the ref blows me for running when I'm actually falling over - or blowing for being too aggressive as I try to evade a tackle...

[Oakboy]

And crowds of up to 4k being allowed from December in lowest tier Covid areas. Good news for Bath, Bristol and Glaws, less so for Sale and Leicester.

Puja

I see it is 4000 or 50% capacity whichever is the lower. A few anomalies there for rugby perhaps?

[morepork]

And crowds of up to 4k being allowed from December in lowest tier Covid areas. Good news for Bath, Bristol and Glaws, less so for Sale and Leicester.

Puja

You can get from one tier to another with a 2 hour drive, no?

[Puja]

And crowds of up to 4k being allowed from December in lowest tier Covid areas. Good news for Bath, Bristol and Glaws, less so for Sale and Leicester.

Puja

You can get from one tier to another with a 2 hour drive, no?

I believe you can get from one tier to another with an extra £10k average annual salary.

You're not *supposed* to go from a lower tier to a higher one. Whether that actually makes a single f*ck of difference is up for debate.

Puja

[morepork]

And crowds of up to 4k being allowed from December in lowest tier Covid areas. Good news for Bath, Bristol and Glaws, less so for Sale and Leicester.

Puja

You can get from one tier to another with a 2 hour drive, no?

I believe you can get from one tier to another with an extra £10k average annual salary.

You're not *supposed* to go from a lower tier to a higher one. Whether that actually makes a single f*ck of difference is up for debate.

Puja

Cheers. I know I bang on about it a bit, but I can't get my head around planning for gatherings of this nature at this point in time. Over here we have screaming mentals opposing any mitigation of packing people in a public space, but the scene over there seems more don't ask don't tell. I hope it works out OK in the end.

[Puja]

You can get from one tier to another with a 2 hour drive, no?

I believe you can get from one tier to another with an extra £10k average annual salary.

You're not *supposed* to go from a lower tier to a higher one. Whether that actually makes a single f*ck of difference is up for debate.

Puja

Cheers. I know I bang on about it a bit, but I can't get my head around planning for gatherings of this nature at this point in time. Over here we have screaming mentals opposing any mitigation of packing people in a public space, but the scene over there seems more don't ask don't tell. I hope it works out OK in the end.

It actually seems more barking to me that we haven't allowed crowds into stadia before this. Allowing 20k into an 80k Twickenham with social distancing seems a hell of a lot more safe than ramming people into pubs to save that section of the economy.

Puja

[Doorzetbornandbred]

And crowds of up to 4k being allowed from December in lowest tier Covid areas. Good news for Bath, Bristol and Glaws, less so for Sale and Leicester.

Puja

Which is great news.

As is grassroots sports being opened up again.

I've missed tripping over my feet as I try not to run - not to mention trying to hold my tongue when the ref blows me for running when I'm actually falling over - or blowing for being too aggressive as I try to evade a tackle...

As much as this is great news Im totally perplexed why back in Aug/Sept with approx 15 deaths a day we couldn't play yet now we are up over 400/day we can resume? I had to see my GP yesterday and asked him that question and his response was "its bloody stupid"...

[Which Tyler]

As much as this is great news Im totally perplexed why back in Aug/Sept with approx 15 deaths a day we couldn't play yet now we are up over 400/day we can resume? I had to see my GP yesterday and asked him that question and his response was "its bloody stupid"...

Politics, pure and simple

Partially politics (though your August / September date seems late to me - we were back by then. ETA: Just had a look back - we returned 17th June).

Our knowledge of how this spreads has improved since September, but not massively (ETE: Will have changed pretty massively since June) - outdoor activities should be relatively safe; with the exception of prolonged scrums - or rucks when there's little-no wind - I can't think of much else in other sports where there's quite such close contact for such time frames.

There's a point where the health risks of lower exercise levels trumps the health risks of playing; but I've absolutely no idea where that comes. Presumably the lessons learnt June-October would inform this.

Of course, tiered regional changes help.

If mass and rapid testing comes in, then that changes the picture; as does a potential vaccine.

Actually - when you stop and put things together, there's a decent case to be made beyond "politics" - but based on data unavailable to the public.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

As much as this is great news Im totally perplexed why back in Aug/Sept with approx 15 deaths a day we couldn't play yet now we are up over 400/day we can resume? I had to see my GP yesterday and asked him that question and his response was "its bloody stupid"...

Politics, pure and simple

Partially politics (though your August / September date seems late to me - we were back by then. ETA: Just had a look back - we returned 17th June).

Our knowledge of how this spreads has improved since September, but not massively (ETE: Will have changed pretty massively since June) - outdoor activities should be relatively safe; with the exception of prolonged scrums - or rucks when there's little-no wind - I can't think of much else in other sports where there's quite such close contact for such time frames.

There's a point where the health risks of lower exercise levels trumps the health risks of playing; but I've absolutely no idea where that comes. Presumably the lessons learnt June-October would inform this.

Of course, tiered regional changes help.

If mass and rapid testing comes in, then that changes the picture; as does a potential vaccine.

Actually - when you stop and put things together, there's a decent case to be made beyond "politics" - but based on data unavailable to the public.

I meant actually playing rugby matches with contact WT. We had bugger all Covid in the South West and RFU bods I know say there were large areas of England that couldve been playing. Hey ho we just have to trust the experts...

[Which Tyler]

Fair enough, though we still wait and see if we're back to playing matches in December.

And yes, regional tiers would be something that (should) make a big difference here. That problem probably was political - looking for consistency across the sport.
Level-8 Cornwall/Devon county league probably fine, Level-6 SW1 may be fine, but Level-4 S probably not, which causes problems.
You might have 1 club with the firsts not allowed to play, 2ns mostly allowed with the odd disallowed, and the 3rds sith a full fixture list - which would be... Politically problematic (politically for RFU, rather than HMG)

[Digby]

I believe you can get from one tier to another with an extra £10k average annual salary.

You're not *supposed* to go from a lower tier to a higher one. Whether that actually makes a single f*ck of difference is up for debate.

Puja

Cheers. I know I bang on about it a bit, but I can't get my head around planning for gatherings of this nature at this point in time. Over here we have screaming mentals opposing any mitigation of packing people in a public space, but the scene over there seems more don't ask don't tell. I hope it works out OK in the end.

It actually seems more barking to me that we haven't allowed crowds into stadia before this. Allowing 20k into an 80k Twickenham with social distancing seems a hell of a lot more safe than ramming people into pubs to save that section of the economy.

Puja

How are you getting the 20k to and fro' HQ? Because even if you're going for the 7s and it's a small crowd around the 20k the train stations and carriages are still rammed. And the roads around the ground, the gates and the toilets and so on are all still very busy.

Does everyone have to drive, and arrive/depart at staged times?

[morepork]

Cheers. I know I bang on about it a bit, but I can't get my head around planning for gatherings of this nature at this point in time. Over here we have screaming mentals opposing any mitigation of packing people in a public space, but the scene over there seems more don't ask don't tell. I hope it works out OK in the end.

It actually seems more barking to me that we haven't allowed crowds into stadia before this. Allowing 20k into an 80k Twickenham with social distancing seems a hell of a lot more safe than ramming people into pubs to save that section of the economy.

Puja

How are you getting the 20k to and fro' HQ? Because even if you're going for the 7s and it's a small crowd around the 20k the train stations and carriages are still rammed. And the roads around the ground, the gates and the toilets and so on are all still very busy.

Does everyone have to drive, and arrive/depart at staged times?

Preschichly.

[Puja]

Cheers. I know I bang on about it a bit, but I can't get my head around planning for gatherings of this nature at this point in time. Over here we have screaming mentals opposing any mitigation of packing people in a public space, but the scene over there seems more don't ask don't tell. I hope it works out OK in the end.

It actually seems more barking to me that we haven't allowed crowds into stadia before this. Allowing 20k into an 80k Twickenham with social distancing seems a hell of a lot more safe than ramming people into pubs to save that section of the economy.

Puja

How are you getting the 20k to and fro' HQ? Because even if you're going for the 7s and it's a small crowd around the 20k the train stations and carriages are still rammed. And the roads around the ground, the gates and the toilets and so on are all still very busy.

Does everyone have to drive, and arrive/depart at staged times?

You can't tell me that the RFU wouldn't've been able to organise something if it meant having paying spectators. When there's that significant an amount of money on the line, it could've been organised with staged arrival and departure times etc.

On a smaller scale, getting a quarter of a stadium's capacity (or 4k, whichever was lower) in for club rugby would've been more than doable. It's not ideal, perhaps, but I don't get why we were encouraged to "Eat out to help out" and have pubs open and rammed because otherwise the hospitality sector would be screwed, but then stitch up sports. One seems lower risk than the other.

Puja

[Banquo]

It actually seems more barking to me that we haven't allowed crowds into stadia before this. Allowing 20k into an 80k Twickenham with social distancing seems a hell of a lot more safe than ramming people into pubs to save that section of the economy.

Puja

How are you getting the 20k to and fro' HQ? Because even if you're going for the 7s and it's a small crowd around the 20k the train stations and carriages are still rammed. And the roads around the ground, the gates and the toilets and so on are all still very busy.

Does everyone have to drive, and arrive/depart at staged times?

You can't tell me that the RFU wouldn't've been able to organise something if it meant having paying spectators. When there's that significant an amount of money on the line, it could've been organised with staged arrival and departure times etc.

On a smaller scale, getting a quarter of a stadium's capacity (or 4k, whichever was lower) in for club rugby would've been more than doable. It's not ideal, perhaps, but I don't get why we were encouraged to "Eat out to help out" and have pubs open and rammed because otherwise the hospitality sector would be screwed, but then stitch up sports. One seems lower risk than the other.

Puja

Well except for the logistics of stadium use- bars, toilets travelling, and the fact that elite sport can still make money without footfall via TV, and they’ve been given a handout and furlough like everyone else. On the other hand, no money without footfall in hospitality. And a lot less fun.

[Oakboy]

Anybody know what the debenture situation is at Twickenham? I read somewhere that 4000 means no tickets for non-debenture holders but is that right? Also, does a DH just have a right to a seat but still has to pay the match day price?

Various reports claim that a lot of football grounds will have overheads that more than cancel out the income from 4000. Therefore fans admitted at this level costs more than not admitting any. Does that apply for rugby? It sounds as if the clubs with really big grounds (rugby/football) will end up paying extra for the atmosphere created. I don't know what to believe.

[Banquo]

Anybody know what the debenture situation is at Twickenham? I read somewhere that 4000 means no tickets for non-debenture holders but is that right? Also, does a DH just have a right to a seat but still has to pay the match day price?

Various reports claim that a lot of football grounds will have overheads that more than cancel out the income from 4000. Therefore fans admitted at this level costs more than not admitting any. Does that apply for rugby? It sounds as if the clubs with really big grounds (rugby/football) will end up paying extra for the atmosphere created. I don't know what to believe.

Well given most dont make an operating profit from full grounds...

[Oakboy]

Anybody know what the debenture situation is at Twickenham? I read somewhere that 4000 means no tickets for non-debenture holders but is that right? Also, does a DH just have a right to a seat but still has to pay the match day price?

Various reports claim that a lot of football grounds will have overheads that more than cancel out the income from 4000. Therefore fans admitted at this level costs more than not admitting any. Does that apply for rugby? It sounds as if the clubs with really big grounds (rugby/football) will end up paying extra for the atmosphere created. I don't know what to believe.

Well given most dont make an operating profit from full grounds...

Understood, but are clubs now having to pay more for a bit of atmosphere rather than having empty grounds? Maybe they can jack up the TV payment as a result?