Eng v. Ire - Match thread

[Oakboy]

As someone who has moaned about the present tactics, Warburton’s words are hardly a great revelation - it’s been said ad nauseum that NZ kick the ball more than any other team but, importantly, they can flick the switch and attack you when the opportunity presents, ie they play what’s in front of them. May’s second try, ie the intention and thought process that led to it, is an exception rather than a rule. I’m therefore not saying kick first is not a good way of winning, that I don’t understand why it’s the go to tactic or that we shouldn’t kick unless in extremis, just that it is boring to watch, even more so when you can field the 13 and back 3 Eng can, and it makes us a limited team. It’s also f**king frustrating seeing an overlap being wasted by kicking away the ball, a kick first mentality on turnover etc etc
If kicking and big d is universally believed in the game to be the key to a win, it is also an insight in to why Farrell is so highly rated by those who get paid by results.
There is some solace that Jones admits it’s limited and plans to work on attack post Lions but a) that’s a bloody long time away, b) it’s Jones so I’m not sure I completely believe him and c) I wonder how far up the list of the thought process at 9, 10 & 12 it will ever be.
I wonder how good a player George Ford would be by now if he weren’t in a shite club team and England had based their game around his passing and game management skills. What could’ve been....

Overall, the saddest part is that a significant percentage of our potential performance, goes missing in EVERY game.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It is also about recognising where to play. I mean Ireland had 68% possession, but when you look at it 56% was in their own half, and 20% in their own 22. 68% sounds impressive, but if you're almost entirely playing in your own half and almost a third in your own 22 then you're kind of playing into the other team's hands, especially when they have a smothering defence. Whilst their carrying strategy was almost all one out runners. 149 carries, 178 passes, at just over 1.75m per carry. Though one might remark that if we included negative carries and took them off the metres Ireland's average would be lower. England carried 62 times, but passed 101 times with an average of 3m per carry. We also kicked less than them 43 to 51 (in play 32/37), but we kicked a larger percentage of our possession.

Ben Youngs passed the ball 31 times and kicked 10, Farrell 14/13, overall our halfbacks kicked 28 times (including free kicks and penalties to lineout) and passed 68 times, whilst Ireland passed 136 times from halfback and kicked 34 times, which kind of says they didn't really recognise the futility of running into a brick wall and just kept doing to same and somewhat expecting a different result.

[Mikey Brown]

It is also about recognising where to play. I mean Ireland had 68% possession, but when you look at it 56% was in their own half, and 20% in their own 22. 68% sounds impressive, but if you're almost entirely playing in your own half and almost a third in your own 22 then you're kind of playing into the other team's hands, especially when they have a smothering defence. Whilst their carrying strategy was almost all one out runners. 149 carries, 178 passes, at just over 1.75m per carry. Though one might remark that if we included negative carries and took them off the metres Ireland's average would be lower. England carried 62 times, but passed 101 times with an average of 3m per carry. We also kicked less than them 43 to 51 (in play 32/37), but we kicked a larger percentage of our possession.

Ben Youngs passed the ball 31 times and kicked 10, Farrell 14/13, overall our halfbacks kicked 28 times (including free kicks and penalties to lineout) and passed 68 times, whilst Ireland passed 136 times from halfback and kicked 34 times, which kind of says they didn't really recognise the futility of running into a brick wall and just kept doing to same and somewhat expecting a different result.

A lot of pundits defending this relentless kicking (contractually obligated to do so?) seem to keep missing this point that it only really works if the opposition refuse to return kicks, running into brick walls as Ireland do, or do it significantly worse than you.

Once running/passing has been fully eradicated from the game I can’t imagine I’m going to care too much whether England win or not because I won’t be watching.

[Stom]

It is also about recognising where to play. I mean Ireland had 68% possession, but when you look at it 56% was in their own half, and 20% in their own 22. 68% sounds impressive, but if you're almost entirely playing in your own half and almost a third in your own 22 then you're kind of playing into the other team's hands, especially when they have a smothering defence. Whilst their carrying strategy was almost all one out runners. 149 carries, 178 passes, at just over 1.75m per carry. Though one might remark that if we included negative carries and took them off the metres Ireland's average would be lower. England carried 62 times, but passed 101 times with an average of 3m per carry. We also kicked less than them 43 to 51 (in play 32/37), but we kicked a larger percentage of our possession.

Ben Youngs passed the ball 31 times and kicked 10, Farrell 14/13, overall our halfbacks kicked 28 times (including free kicks and penalties to lineout) and passed 68 times, whilst Ireland passed 136 times from halfback and kicked 34 times, which kind of says they didn't really recognise the futility of running into a brick wall and just kept doing to same and somewhat expecting a different result.

A lot of pundits defending this relentless kicking (contractually obligated to do so?) seem to keep missing this point that it only really works if the opposition refuse to return kicks, running into brick walls as Ireland do, or do it significantly worse than you.

Once running/passing has been fully eradicated from the game I can’t imagine I’m going to care too much whether England win or not because I won’t be watching.

Well, that's the thing. Jones wants to take the Sarries style to the next level. To force mistakes with defence. It's why the first 5 minutes are so vital to England: we need a lead on the scoreboard. So he lets the backs play a bit more for the first 5 minutes. Generally only off set play, though. We run through the set plays until we score, then sit back and let the other team run themselves into the ground.

If they kick, we either rely on our organisation to reset and kick back, or they've kicked badly and we can choose to reset or counter. And there comes the problem....

Owen "what's vision" Farrell. The man who might as well be playing blind rugby he doesn't have the ability to see when to counter. With Ford at 10, we might counter more often.

[Oakboy]

Once running/passing has been fully eradicated from the game I can’t imagine I’m going to care too much whether England win or not because I won’t be watching.

You are by no means unique in holding that view.

In my early days of starting to take an interest in watching international rugby, France were killing off the spectacle with kicking everything, I seem to remember. That would have been mid to late 60s and two brothers were involved. I can't remember their names or how things changed.

It is usually a cyclical thing but where it might be different is in the present-day computer-controlled fetish with statistics.

[Spiffy]

Once running/passing has been fully eradicated from the game I can’t imagine I’m going to care too much whether England win or not because I won’t be watching.

You are by no means unique in holding that view.

In my early days of starting to take an interest in watching international rugby, France were killing off the spectacle with kicking everything, I seem to remember. That would have been mid to late 60s and two brothers were involved. I can't remember their names or how things changed.

It is usually a cyclical thing but where it might be different is in the present-day computer-controlled fetish with statistics.

Camberabero -a pair of chubby dwarves. On of them had a son who went on to be a decent FH for France.

[Banquo]

Once running/passing has been fully eradicated from the game I can’t imagine I’m going to care too much whether England win or not because I won’t be watching.

You are by no means unique in holding that view.

In my early days of starting to take an interest in watching international rugby, France were killing off the spectacle with kicking everything, I seem to remember. That would have been mid to late 60s and two brothers were involved. I can't remember their names or how things changed.

It is usually a cyclical thing but where it might be different is in the present-day computer-controlled fetish with statistics.

Spanghero brothers? Or Camberabaro? 60s was a kick fest until the Taffs discovered they could win by running it in about 1967 or Gareth Edward’s debut.

[Stom]

So everyone is talking about Mays try and in the guardian, Andy Bull talked about his first game at Twickers and the try Rees scored against NZ.

Well that was my first England match, too (not my first time at Big Stoop, though, I think I played there before I saw a match there, maybe in ‘94?) and that try also stick in my memory.

So here it is:

[FKAS]

Very wise of him to chip over Lomu.

[Puja]

So everyone is talking about Mays try and in the guardian, Andy Bull talked about his first game at Twickers and the try Rees scored against NZ.

Well that was my first England match, too (not my first time at Big Stoop, though, I think I played there before I saw a match there, maybe in ‘94?) and that try also stick in my memory.

So here it is:

Heh - that's my youtube video! I do love that try dearly - I started watching rugby as a boy in the 1995 5N and so had near a year of watching England win every game put in front of them before being very rudely acquainted with defeat when New Zealand and Lomu ran over us and Brooke took us so lightly that he dropped a goal from half-way because he could. We then got very solidly beaten in the first test in 97 and everyone was expecting a repeat dose in the second test. For us to take the game to New Zealand and open early with Rees embarrassing Lomu and Brooke was utterly priceless to me.

Puja

[Timbo]

Not sure exactly how much thought went into that Mehrtens clearance kick there. NZ have 11 players between the 15m and the touch line and the kick is to the opposite side of the field. Looks like he actually picks out Rees on purpose too.

Kick chase leaves a fair bit to be desired also.

[Mr Mwenda]

Must have hurt, that knee clattering in made me since.

[16th man]

Must have hurt, that knee clattering in made me since.

Broke his jaw.

You'd say it might be a citing and a ban now, but he's an AB so probably not.....