Squad for 6N

[Mikey Brown]

I mean there's a million other reasons we didn't win, but fuck. That ending.

Now I'm wondering if Hogg touched it with his hand or knee and whether it was a tackle on the man without the ball. But it's all rubbish. Wales won, and they did because they took their chances.

Pivac - what's changed since the autumn? We played against 14 men for more time than against 15...

It was definitely knocked down before it got to Hogg, just couldn't tell in what direction.

[paddy no 11]

Hard luck lads, don't be too harsh

Graham had a nightmare sucked the life out of ye

Went south from there

[Chunks Baws]

Fagerson is a fucking helmet. Stupid twat.

We talked so much about mentality and emotions after last weekend, just to piss it all down the drain today. I suppose we should be happy we didn't fold and let them pump us.

Matt Fagerson looked all wrong today, tried too hard to be "annoying" but just fucked off the ref.

Gary Graham was rancid.

[switchskier]

Some thoughts now that a few hours have passed.

Positives:
- Hogg is in great form and he appears to be growing into the captaincy. I'd want to play for him
- we dominated that first half with the half backs mixing it up nicely and moving us around the pitch really well
- Gray (jr) carrying has improved massively since he went to Exeter and his partnership with Cummings looks great
- the wings looked dangerous and were both busy and looking for work
- we had an edge in the scrum until Brown came on, and it certainly wasn't a weakness
- we could have won it, playing a man down for 30 minutes

Negatives:
- we lost because our rate of converting pressure into points was terrible. There was a stat at one point that we'd spent 5 minutes 43 seconds in the opposition 22 compared to the welsh's 43 seconds, yet the game was still close
- the thinness of our squad was revealed. We have no effective replacement for Ritchie/Watson and the drop off from Redpath to Lang was noticeable. It will be worse in a fortnight without Faegerson
- the lineout reverted to poor, and we seemed strangely unwilling to challenge Welsh ball. This felt like a mistake given their troubles last week
- our maul defense looked poor. Credit to the Welsh maul but this was a strength not so long ago
- we compounded errors. Some penalties are ok, it shows your playing on the edge. But we have them away in bunches, and the Welsh capitalised. That can't happen again.

[Cameo]

Ah, that was very frustrating. We weren't perfect (especially Graham's penalties) but until the red, I never thought we were going to lose that. Even if you ignore the card,it was a massive swing from attacking penalty for us to attacking penalty for them.

The card itself was harsh for me. I think it was a bit of a glancing blow on the head and the head moved as he was coming in. Penalty and yellow (probably) as Fagerson was coming in from distance so should have been more careful, but I think red was very harsh.

Generally, I thought our attack looked pretty good. A few mistakes from Russell but he really challenges a defence with long passes, short pops and inside balls. His offload at the end was magic too. His chips near the line just aren't coming off at the moment but not too far off. Harris looked decent in attack too as did the wingers and obviously Hogg was magic.

Wide defence was t that foolproof. I wonder whether Duhan has a little bit of learning to do on that.

Just gutted to lose like that!

[Cameo]

Fuming. Really wish I hadn't watched that.

Never really been a huge fan of Fagerson but willing to accept that what he's good at he's very good at. But he's always been dirty and gives away daft penalties. Now he's cost us a match we should've won. The utter utter cunt.

Should also mention that our mindset at the start of the 2nd half was all wrong, we wasted the whole 3rd quarter watching Wales give us a lesson in actually using a brain.

One of the the best coaches ever used to say rugby is won and lost in the top two inches. Well Cunt-face's inability to even have a top two inches, along with a general lack in that department across the team has meant we've lost a-fucking-nother game we should've won.

I don't want to hear a single fucking bleat about Scots players not being selected for the Lions if they go ahead. If I was lions coach I wouldn't go near most Scottish players... why would anyone?

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

Can't say I agree with much of that but I did enjoy reading it.

To me a loss like that is completely different than a 'standard' Scottish loss

[Sourdust]

The card itself was harsh for me. I think it was a bit of a glancing blow on the head and the head moved as he was coming in. Penalty and yellow (probably) as Fagerson was coming in from distance so should have been more careful, but I think red was very harsh.

My reaction (Wales fan) was the same as this, at the time. But with respect; it's wrong.

If you accept ZF was "coming in from distance and should have been more careful", then that's a card and the colour is determined by the outcome. There is clear contact shoulder-to-head; you literally CANNOT give a yellow for that. "Jones' head moved" is mitigation when entering a tackle / maul, but not when diving shoulder-first into a ruck. That action is inherently dangerous. Don't do it.

We're overdue for one of these ourselves. When it happens I'll be furious. But it's right.

[Cameo]

The card itself was harsh for me. I think it was a bit of a glancing blow on the head and the head moved as he was coming in. Penalty and yellow (probably) as Fagerson was coming in from distance so should have been more careful, but I think red was very harsh.

My reaction (Wales fan) was the same as this, at the time. But with respect; it's wrong.

If you accept ZF was "coming in from distance and should have been more careful", then that's a card and the colour is determined by the outcome. There is clear contact shoulder-to-head; you literally CANNOT give a yellow for that. "Jones' head moved" is mitigation when entering a tackle / maul, but not when diving shoulder-first into a ruck. That action is inherently dangerous. Don't do it.

We're overdue for one of these ourselves. When it happens I'll be furious. But it's right.

Mmm, I see your point but I'm not sure. I said he was coming in from distance and should have been more careful but I didn't see this as one where he absolutely flew in. I think if he hadn't made contact with the head it was probably a penalty but no more. To me, the head contact is the only thing that brings a red into question, and therefore it matters how the head contact came about.

Anyway, I'm all for them cracking down on dangerous entries so can't dwell on it too much. Been good to see some good games in this 6N compared to the Nations Cup

[Cameo]

Just seen that final play again. It does look like there is a strong shout for a penalty. Harris is over the ball on his feet for a good while before the ref shouts "leave it, off his feet".

Anyway, I hadn't quite realised that Halfpenny had slipped and Duhan was straight in on the line if he hadn't been tap tackled. What a finish that would have been!

[stevedog1980]

Switch,

I’d also add that another positive was actual involvement from our wingers. Duhan has seemed happy enough to remain isolated out on his wing before this game but he seemed much keener to come looking for work. Darcy Graham was a constant threat, any time the ball got in his hands I had the feeling something could happen.

David Cherry has gone under the radar as well but he deserves a lot of praise. Against England he made 7 tackles in 13 minutes. Not sure how many tackles he made yesterday but he hit each of his lineouts under high pressure to keep the game alive in only his second cap.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but fresh from watching squidge rugby dissecting the Ireland performance of last week - should we have sacrificed a back row instead of a winger??

I don’t buy the “coming from a distance” piece of the argument. If Wyn Jones is sitting with his head like that the whole time then fair enough. But, when the situation changes in the last metre he can’t pull out of that. Fagerson needs that momentum to effect the clear out, without it Wyn Jones stays on that ball. I agree it’s a penalty all day long because that arm stays tucked, I’m not sure the idea that any contact with the head is an immediate red card is a good one. Look at the farce football is at the moment thanks to the literal interpretation of the hand ball rule. The jackal is the only time I can think of in rugby where your head lower than your hips and still be an active participant in the game. If foul play overrides the penalty of holding onto the ball too long and any contact with the head results in a red card we are going to see even more of this and possibly see it being used as a genuine tactic.

What’s the solution? Immediate penalty as soon as an opposition player engages you? No more of the friendly “hands off” from the referee? I honestly don’t know at this point

[septic 9]

the red card. If he makes direct contact with the head, its a red, all day.
Townsend makes the point correctly that the ref seemed to rush at the decision, and ignored twice the TMO asking him to look at mitigation that Jones head came down just as Fagerson hits. I think that's fair but the onus is own Fagerson coming from distance to be safe when he makes contact. For me the doubt was whether he made contact with head first rather than very high torso then head as it comes down.
On balance if I apply the test "if it had been the other way round", then its not really a poor decision by the ref even if it leaves some room for debate

[Big D]

Was a red card, could argue (like Dickson tried to) that the players height changed but I don't think we can complain that the ref has decided there wasn't enough mitigation.

We still should have won that game and that is what is frustrating.

[Tobylerone]

Well, in the slightly warmer light of day, turning a 17-3 lead into a 24-25 loss with fourteen on the pitch takes foot shooting to another level.
Though in mitigation (popular this weekend) there were one or two moments of misfortune.

[septic 9]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but fresh from watching squidge rugby dissecting the Ireland performance of last week - should we have sacrificed a back row instead of a winger??

No need to watch anything to know that we should have taken a back row off. We defend very narrow, nearly cost us last week but for Fezhead being unable to pass to the 7 to 1 overlap and kicking instead. We were attacked wide yesterday and after taking a wing off in a narrow defensive system we got what we asked for.
Remember a few years ago in Cardiff - Hogg saw red, we played a back short and got savaged by a record score. Same tactic same opponents same outcome

[septic 9]

Just seen that final play again. It does look like there is a strong shout for a penalty. Harris is over the ball on his feet for a good while before the ref shouts "leave it, off his feet".

Anyway, I hadn't quite realised that Halfpenny had slipped and Duhan was straight in on the line if he hadn't been tap tackled. What a finish that would have been!

1/2p had been off for an hour by then. Watkins managed a tap tackle which won the game, making up for being far too easily skinned by Hogg earlier

[septic 9]

- we lost because our rate of converting pressure into points was terrible. There was a stat at one point that we'd spent 5 minutes 43 seconds in the opposition 22 compared to the welsh's 43 seconds, yet the game was still close

same problem last week

Last week we were worth a 20-25 margin win. Yesterday should have been going into HT 20+ clear. Its a very different game then, even with red card to come

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. I think there’s legitimate reasons to feel for Fagerson but hard to argue it wasn’t a reckless shoulder, and he hit the players head so that’s that.

Letting Wales back in either side of half time was just so poor.

[septic 9]

Negatives:
- the thinness of our squad was revealed. We have no effective replacement for Ritchie/Watson and the drop off from Redpath to Lang was noticeable. It will be worse in a fortnight without Faegerson
- the lineout reverted to poor, and we seemed strangely unwilling to challenge Welsh ball. This felt like a mistake given their troubles last week
- our maul defense looked poor. Credit to the Welsh maul but this was a strength not so long ago
- we compounded errors. Some penalties are ok, it shows your playing on the edge. But we have them away in bunches, and the Welsh capitalised. That can't happen again.

lineout - Wales troubles last week were of their own making, not due to being challenged, but agree we should have put pressure on them. Except if you challenge in the air the lifting pod are not set to counter the maul if it comes, and as you rightly point out, their maul was very effective yesterday and ours, especially defensive was really poor. Also losing Thomson meant no chance to cover all their options, they had AWJ, Beard, Wainwright and Tiperic all front line jumpers. we had the 2 locks. What I didn't see was the smarts like last week when we chose to not engage the maul a couple of times which creates doubt for the opposition.
We need to work on both sides of the maul big time in the next 2 weeks.

Richie will be back, and its harsh to dismiss Graham after a couple of appearances, it sometimes takes a player more to step up and adjust to the pace. But he looked like the schoolboy who battered all out of the way suddenly finding that the seniors are a bit bigger tougher and harder. And we do have the sort of nuisance player who gives his all like Richie and is a better lineout presence, and its not Thomson. And he has been excellent this season. He is not in the squad though

[Cameo]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but fresh from watching squidge rugby dissecting the Ireland performance of last week - should we have sacrificed a back row instead of a winger??

No need to watch anything to know that we should have taken a back row off. We defend very narrow, nearly cost us last week but for Fezhead being unable to pass to the 7 to 1 overlap and kicking instead. We were attacked wide yesterday and after taking a wing off in a narrow defensive system we got what we asked for.
Remember a few years ago in Cardiff - Hogg saw red, we played a back short and got savaged by a record score. Same tactic same opponents same outcome

I agree with you in defence (although the maul was a problem even with 8), but I think keeping 8 forwards really allowed us to keep continuity in attack and we had enough creativity to keep the pressure on.

If there had been longer to play I'd agree with you. As it was, I think it was a tough call.

[whatisthejava]

For me it’s a red because fagerson is looking at the ground and he’s not eyes up on approach. At contact his eyes are up

But there is a bit of mitigation there

Xander is actually moving up (like a plane taking off) at contact. I reckon he will prob get 3 weeks.

I also fully expect Liam Williams to get cited and banned, they can argue about if he hit chest/neck but it was after the whistle and I reckon they will want to lay a marker down about it

[Chunks Baws]

Negatives:
- the thinness of our squad was revealed. We have no effective replacement for Ritchie/Watson and the drop off from Redpath to Lang was noticeable. It will be worse in a fortnight without Faegerson
- the lineout reverted to poor, and we seemed strangely unwilling to challenge Welsh ball. This felt like a mistake given their troubles last week
- our maul defense looked poor. Credit to the Welsh maul but this was a strength not so long ago
- we compounded errors. Some penalties are ok, it shows your playing on the edge. But we have them away in bunches, and the Welsh capitalised. That can't happen again.

lineout - Wales troubles last week were of their own making, not due to being challenged, but agree we should have put pressure on them. Except if you challenge in the air the lifting pod are not set to counter the maul if it comes, and as you rightly point out, their maul was very effective yesterday and ours, especially defensive was really poor. Also losing Thomson meant no chance to cover all their options, they had AWJ, Beard, Wainwright and Tiperic all front line jumpers. we had the 2 locks. What I didn't see was the smarts like last week when we chose to not engage the maul a couple of times which creates doubt for the opposition.
We need to work on both sides of the maul big time in the next 2 weeks.

Richie will be back, and its harsh to dismiss Graham after a couple of appearances, it sometimes takes a player more to step up and adjust to the pace. But he looked like the schoolboy who battered all out of the way suddenly finding that the seniors are a bit bigger tougher and harder. And we do have the sort of nuisance player who gives his all like Richie and is a better lineout presence, and its not Thomson. And he has been excellent this season. He is not in the squad though

Batman?

[septic 9]

Negatives:
- the thinness of our squad was revealed. We have no effective replacement for Ritchie/Watson and the drop off from Redpath to Lang was noticeable. It will be worse in a fortnight without Faegerson
- the lineout reverted to poor, and we seemed strangely unwilling to challenge Welsh ball. This felt like a mistake given their troubles last week
- our maul defense looked poor. Credit to the Welsh maul but this was a strength not so long ago
- we compounded errors. Some penalties are ok, it shows your playing on the edge. But we have them away in bunches, and the Welsh capitalised. That can't happen again.

lineout - Wales troubles last week were of their own making, not due to being challenged, but agree we should have put pressure on them. Except if you challenge in the air the lifting pod are not set to counter the maul if it comes, and as you rightly point out, their maul was very effective yesterday and ours, especially defensive was really poor. Also losing Thomson meant no chance to cover all their options, they had AWJ, Beard, Wainwright and Tiperic all front line jumpers. we had the 2 locks. What I didn't see was the smarts like last week when we chose to not engage the maul a couple of times which creates doubt for the opposition.
We need to work on both sides of the maul big time in the next 2 weeks.

Richie will be back, and its harsh to dismiss Graham after a couple of appearances, it sometimes takes a player more to step up and adjust to the pace. But he looked like the schoolboy who battered all out of the way suddenly finding that the seniors are a bit bigger tougher and harder. And we do have the sort of nuisance player who gives his all like Richie and is a better lineout presence, and its not Thomson. And he has been excellent this season. He is not in the squad though

Batman?

yep

[septic 9]

For me it’s a red because fagerson is looking at the ground and he’s not eyes up on approach. At contact his eyes are up

But there is a bit of mitigation there

Xander is actually moving up (like a plane taking off) at contact. I reckon he will prob get 3 weeks.

I also fully expect Liam Williams to get cited and banned, they can argue about if he hit chest/neck but it was after the whistle and I reckon they will want to lay a marker down about it

Fagerson will get 6 wks reduced to 3. If he gets more then its corruption of the highest order when compared to L Williams and O'Mahoney assaults and previous.

I'd be very very surprised if Williams is cited

[normanski]

[

Fagerson will get 6 wks reduced to 3. If he gets more then its corruption of the highest order when compared to L Williams and O'Mahoney assaults and previous.

I'd be very very surprised if Williams is cited[/quote]
There doesn’t seem to be a lot of citing after 6N matches so you’re probably right. Perhaps the TMO interventions are curbing this.

There was a fairly clear case of North having his eyes gouged in the Ireland match but it came to nought.

[whatisthejava]

There was a fairly clear case of North having his eyes gouged in the Ireland match but it came to nought.

Accidental contact wit the eyes is not gouging. Hes been gouged and bitten before and has prior for being vocal about it. He wasn't so presume he thought it was accidental (Happy to be corrected but didn't see anything that made me think he took it personally)

The TMOs are really not covering themselves in glory, not really sure one is enough when you don't have the crowd to help them