We need to talk about Eddie...

[WaspInWales]

Is it that time yet?

I know coaches have their foibles and favourites but as things stand, it's hard to picture England finishing anywhere other than avoiding the wooden spoon on points difference.

He seems intent on having a left and right footed kicking option as well as a long range kicker even if that means players out of position and selected when not in form.

This Sarries love-in has to end too. All the Sarries lot (including Farrell) have done good things in an England shirt, sometimes even great but Itoje for all his effort can't stop coughing up penalties. Farrell has shown he has very little leadership qualities on the pitch besides barking pointess one liners in a huddle situation and he just comes across as petulant towards referees. Billy has done amazing things for us, but he looks so out of shape. There was a moment against Italy when it seemed he had to be helped up from the ground!

Then there's Ben Youngs. Slow to get the ball out, passing is a lottery, kicking can be extremely dubious but once in a dozen games he'll do something right. Just like Farrell, Billy, Daly and George we have better options.

So fed up with this cos I could see this coming. Many of us could see it coming but Eddie stuck to his guns and no doubt the same shower of shit will be selected against France...with a 6-2 bench split as well.

And ffs, can we get back to calling the bench replacements. Finishers just seems daft.

[twitchy]

I think everyone has been talking about eddie for at least 6 months where have you been?

[Oakboy]

The SH boys warned us that the Jones appointment would end like this. The RFU knew better apparently.

[WaspInWales]

I think everyone has been talking about eddie for at least 6 months where have you been?

Lol, I know...just wanted to use that thread title.

Feel free to delete Puja

[Mr Mwenda]

It is looking stale that is true. Presumably Jones will stay unless he walks. My guess is he will see this championship as a write off and may see it as part of grand plan, even if that seems delusional.

I think there are a lot of players in the England squad who did well when the system functioned and as a consequence perhaps are overrated. Depressingly, I feel some of the fringe players are looking the most out of their depth. I can see why Youngs is an ever-present in England squads. Really dispiriting.

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

I think Eddie is a very good coach, but I do wonder if he's lost it now. He's a complicated character and I think that the reasons for failure are not necessarily black and white.

I think I've talked before about his arrogance and stubbornness and I reckon both are not necessarily faults when your squad is with you. I just wonder if he's hit a point where the Eddie favourites are performing so much worse than players outside the squad that it is just causing confusion both inside and outside the team.

Tactically, I think he's proved himself as being able to have a long term, effective (at least nearly!) plan leading up to a World Cup. But all that goes out the window if you've lost the players support.

I am still not sure that there is a genuinely better alternative, and there are certainly many, many worse, probably most likely alternatives! But his position could become untenable if we don't see a bump against France and especially if we lose to Ireland.

Eddie likes to make out he is not influenced by the media, but my problem is that it sometimes feels like he listens to them all too much, only to do the complete opposite of what they suggest.

Any fool can see that George, Billy, Farrell and Daly were not up to international rugby at the moment, and any fool can see that Sam Simmonds is one of the most impactful players in the NH at the moment.

Players like Dombrandt, Mitchell, Randall, J. Simmonds, Marcus Smith and Ollie Thorley all look like they should have had opportunities to stake a claim by now, or at the very least to be in and around the squad. Not to mention the Ollie Lawrence debacle.

[whatisthejava]

For me, England look like Scotland a few years ago when the discipline was soo poor guys just compounded bad decisions with more bad decisions.

That game was there for the taking when you got to evens and then you gave sheedy 3 easyish kicks

After that you were done.

But I think if pascal doesn’t give wales 14 (and he fucking did) then England win that.

First try - just a sick move from a ref, seen it a few times. If you ask a team to have a talk you should wait till they are ready to restart.

Second try - forward off the hand, never regains control

[Raggs]

The SH boys warned us that the Jones appointment would end like this. The RFU knew better apparently.

Most coaches tenures end poorly, why would you get rid of a coach that's going well if you can keep them, and lets be honest, just about the only side that might be able to poach from England would be NZ.

We had a very poor 6N at this time in the cycle last time, so I'm still not quite ready to kick him out, and there were at least some improvements in our attack I felt, but definitely missing some things.

A few players need to reign it in a bit, as pointed out elsewhere, Itoje needs to play as though he's about to get a yellow now, it'll take away some of his special moments, but he's a big enough positive influence to not need that from him, if he's going to cost us 4+ pens a game anyway.

[Banquo]

I think Eddie is a very good coach, but I do wonder if he's lost it now. He's a complicated character and I think that the reasons for failure are not necessarily black and white.

I think I've talked before about his arrogance and stubbornness and I reckon both are not necessarily faults when your squad is with you. I just wonder if he's hit a point where the Eddie favourites are performing so much worse than players outside the squad that it is just causing confusion both inside and outside the team.

Tactically, I think he's proved himself as being able to have a long term, effective (at least nearly!) plan leading up to a World Cup. But all that goes out the window if you've lost the players support.

I am still not sure that there is a genuinely better alternative, and there are certainly many, many worse, probably most likely alternatives! But his position could become untenable if we don't see a bump against France and especially if we lose to Ireland.

Eddie likes to make out he is not influenced by the media, but my problem is that it sometimes feels like he listens to them all too much, only to do the complete opposite of what they suggest.

Any fool can see that George, Billy, Farrell and Daly were not up to international rugby at the moment, and any fool can see that Sam Simmonds is one of the most impactful players in the NH at the moment.

Players like Dombrandt, Mitchell, Randall, J. Simmonds, Marcus Smith and Ollie Thorley all look like they should have had opportunities to stake a claim by now, or at the very least to be in and around the squad. Not to mention the Ollie Lawrence debacle.

Dombrandt, Mitchell, Randall, Smith and Thorley have all been in and around squads.

[Banquo]

For me, England look like Scotland a few years ago when the discipline was soo poor guys just compounded bad decisions with more bad decisions.

That game was there for the taking when you got to evens and then you gave sheedy 3 easyish kicks

After that you were done.

But I think if pascal doesn’t give wales 14 (and he fucking did) then England win that.

First try - just a sick move from a ref, seen it a few times. If you ask a team to have a talk you should wait till they are ready to restart.

Second try - forward off the hand, never regains control

This

[p/d]

We were shit. Wales were shit. The ref was shit.
Two poor teams, poorly coached and poorly officiated. The only upside was no fans paid to be there and Guscott sounded pissed during half time chat.

[Mikey Brown]

There’s unfortunately nobody in a position to step in and immediately get better results than Jones, but you just feel he’s totally incapable of adapting or seeing past his own biases about particular players or tactics.

A bold move would have been to say the Sarries boys would get a rest this 6 nations due to lack of gametime and we could look at some other combos/options. Is that really a bigger risk than continuing to have an international team built around a championship side that aren’t even playing any games?

The bulk of this team are either sitting in the bottom half of the table in the premiership or in the league below. It’s ridiculous.

But no we can’t risk the poor Sarries boys missing out on a chance to play for the Lions.

[Digby]

We were shit. Wales were shit. The ref was shit.
Two poor teams, poorly coached and poorly officiated. The only upside was no fans paid to be there and Guscott sounded pissed during half time chat.

I cannot agree with there being any redemption in Guscott being there pissed or otherwise.

Other than that yes the whole thing was shite. I thought it was a ballsy move in the 6N given how negative teams are for a ref to penalise attack so early in the game, clearly May did roll but if there was ever a moment to let something slide and have a word after... as it was hardly an attack broke out for the next half hour at least

[Digby]

Eddie has to sort the discipline. Questions about style and selection are pointless if a side is going to concede that many daft penalties, and it's been happening for years. I don't see he has any option but to drop players because they're simply not listening as is, how the players respond to some of them being dropped will be telling

[FKAS]

Ah the anyone but Youngs bandwagon remains. Despite him playing very well yesterday and at least as well as the much talked up Welsh opposition 9s. Robson on the other hand had another shocker off the bench. Perhaps we have to accept that although a bit vanilla in flavour Benny does a decent job and there is a larger problem (backline balance, attacking structure). Rather than replace we need to find an actual successor or successors and start developing them into first team contention over the next 12 to 18 months. If that's Randall and Mitchell then let's get them on the bench and start drip feeding them game time now.

[Sandydragon]

There’s unfortunately nobody in a position to step in and immediately get better results than Jones, but you just feel he’s totally incapable of adapting or seeing past his own biases about particular players or tactics.

A bold move would have been to say the Sarries boys would get a rest this 6 nations due to lack of gametime and we could look at some other combos/options. Is that really a bigger risk than continuing to have an international team built around a championship side that aren’t even playing any games?

The bulk of this team are either sitting in the bottom half of the table in the premiership or in the league below. It’s ridiculous.

But no we can’t risk the poor Sarries boys missing out on a chance to play for the Lions.

Both Jones and to an extent Gatland have given the Sarries players a lot of leeway. Obviously it was assumed that they would be playing some games even at a lower standard, no one foresaw covid when Sarries were relegated. But even so it was still a big risk and I doubt that any other players would have received such an automatic dispensation. All the Sarries players look rusty (although George Ford also looks off the pace) and the question must surely be are there only there because of the Lions tour?

[fivepointer]

I'd hope that Jones didnt give a moments consideration to Lions selection when naming his squad.
He took a bit of a punt that the Saracens players would be fit enough. I think in hindsight that was a touch optimistic, but you cannot blame him for putting faith in players that have done very well for him.

[Oakboy]

The SH boys warned us that the Jones appointment would end like this. The RFU knew better apparently.

Most coaches tenures end poorly, why would you get rid of a coach that's going well if you can keep them, and lets be honest, just about the only side that might be able to poach from England would be NZ.

We had a very poor 6N at this time in the cycle last time, so I'm still not quite ready to kick him out, and there were at least some improvements in our attack I felt, but definitely missing some things.

A few players need to reign it in a bit, as pointed out elsewhere, Itoje needs to play as though he's about to get a yellow now, it'll take away some of his special moments, but he's a big enough positive influence to not need that from him, if he's going to cost us 4+ pens a game anyway.

Whatever side of the Jones argument we might be on, what matters is whether he is capable of producing the goods FROM THIS POINT. Past evidence apparently suggests that when he reaches this stage of decline he is done.

Might it even be that a so-called lesser coach could do better now? The right character, regardless of international background just might come in and gel with a group of players that IS good enough by any sort of historical comparison.

[Sandydragon]

I'd hope that Jones didnt give a moments consideration to Lions selection when naming his squad.
He took a bit of a punt that the Saracens players would be fit enough. I think in hindsight that was a touch optimistic, but you cannot blame him for putting faith in players that have done very well for him.

I’d suggest that the mistake was made when he didn’t make it clear that if you don’t play at the top level domestically you don’t play for England. He took a massive risk in sticking with players who would be operating at a lower level and it’s come back to bite. Obviously compounded by not looking at other players instead.

[Oakboy]

I'd hope that Jones didnt give a moments consideration to Lions selection when naming his squad.
He took a bit of a punt that the Saracens players would be fit enough. I think in hindsight that was a touch optimistic, but you cannot blame him for putting faith in players that have done very well for him.

Just in hindsight? The likelihood of the Saracens players being off the pace was pointed out before Jones picked them. Conversely, some thought they would be better for the rest, I suppose.

[Raggs]

The SH boys warned us that the Jones appointment would end like this. The RFU knew better apparently.

Most coaches tenures end poorly, why would you get rid of a coach that's going well if you can keep them, and lets be honest, just about the only side that might be able to poach from England would be NZ.

We had a very poor 6N at this time in the cycle last time, so I'm still not quite ready to kick him out, and there were at least some improvements in our attack I felt, but definitely missing some things.

A few players need to reign it in a bit, as pointed out elsewhere, Itoje needs to play as though he's about to get a yellow now, it'll take away some of his special moments, but he's a big enough positive influence to not need that from him, if he's going to cost us 4+ pens a game anyway.

Whatever side of the Jones argument we might be on, what matters is whether he is capable of producing the goods FROM THIS POINT. Past evidence apparently suggests that when he reaches this stage of decline he is done.

Might it even be that a so-called lesser coach could do better now? The right character, regardless of international background just might come in and gel with a group of players that IS good enough by any sort of historical comparison.

People were arguing that in the 2018? 6N though, that he'd reached his point of decline and he was done, and he should be pushed out. That clearly wasn't the case though.

[Oakboy]

Most coaches tenures end poorly, why would you get rid of a coach that's going well if you can keep them, and lets be honest, just about the only side that might be able to poach from England would be NZ.

We had a very poor 6N at this time in the cycle last time, so I'm still not quite ready to kick him out, and there were at least some improvements in our attack I felt, but definitely missing some things.

A few players need to reign it in a bit, as pointed out elsewhere, Itoje needs to play as though he's about to get a yellow now, it'll take away some of his special moments, but he's a big enough positive influence to not need that from him, if he's going to cost us 4+ pens a game anyway.

Whatever side of the Jones argument we might be on, what matters is whether he is capable of producing the goods FROM THIS POINT. Past evidence apparently suggests that when he reaches this stage of decline he is done.

Might it even be that a so-called lesser coach could do better now? The right character, regardless of international background just might come in and gel with a group of players that IS good enough by any sort of historical comparison.

People were arguing that in the 2018? 6N though, that he'd reached his point of decline and he was done, and he should be pushed out. That clearly wasn't the case though.

I would not argue but can he do it from here? Nothing else really matters, does it? I think the RWC Final defeat knocked the stuffing out of him to the extent that he's now treading new ground in terms of experience. The odds on him turning it around are looking grim.

[Digby]

I'd hope that Jones didnt give a moments consideration to Lions selection when naming his squad.
He took a bit of a punt that the Saracens players would be fit enough. I think in hindsight that was a touch optimistic, but you cannot blame him for putting faith in players that have done very well for him.

Just in hindsight? The likelihood of the Saracens players being off the pace was pointed out before Jones picked them. Conversely, some thought they would be better for the rest, I suppose.

I don't know if anyone suggested they'd be better for the rest at this point, but more better for the rest at this point given the expectation of a Lions tour to come and then into another full season. So better by 2022 for the rest they've had this season.

It wasn't an unreasonable call, though going another way and saying if you're not playing top flight in England you're not in the EPS would have been reasonable too. Covid is a complicating factor again because the squad size is reduced so

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

I think it really all depends on Eddie and (post Lions/not Lions) if he thinks he's still got the core of the team with him. If he hasn't, I think he has to make wholesale changes. If he has he can keep on as he has and I do think we'll improve.

My worry is that Eddie won't be very good at picking up on the mood of the players, and will refuse to take into account form at domestic level (back to the old arrogance and stubborness).

I think Gatland taking Simmonds on tour (if it happens) would be a big breaking point, especially if he plays and especially especially if he plays brilliantly. The calls from the media, and indeed, everyone, would just be too much...

[Digby]

In advance why would Gatland like Simmonds? Eddie is annoyingly negative as England coach, and he's still much more positive a coach than Gats