Next up.....France

[Digby]

This style of play, really fast playing of the ball looks so much more sensible than slowly playing the ball and then try to rattle the ball around at speed between Ford and Farrell to flummox a defence or ask Billy or Mako to start something from nothing.

That said nobody has piled into our breakdown yet, that would be a risk with how England are moving resources around but someone is going to try it because it looks more sensible than trying to defend a lot of rucks that aren't just below 2 seconds, some are below 1 second, and that's nuts. I actually thought France might pile into our breakdown, maybe without Le Roux the coaches didn't trust the emotion of a French pack, if they thought fanning out was going to beat sub 1 seconds rucks someone needs a word

[Digby]

On another note did Willemse stick his studs into Daly? And was that an accident, or was it an accident that he knew that would happen if he pushed forwards as he did?

Of course the first question there might be was it even Willemse? My initial reaction to it happening was if that's happened by complete accident it'd be an unusual thing

[twitchy]

Well, I enjoyed that.

[Banquo]

This style of play, really fast playing of the ball looks so much more sensible than slowly playing the ball and then try to rattle the ball around at speed between Ford and Farrell to flummox a defence or ask Billy or Mako to start something from nothing.

That said nobody has piled into our breakdown yet, that would be a risk with how England are moving resources around but someone is going to try it because it looks more sensible than trying to defend a lot of rucks that aren't just below 2 seconds, some are below 1 second, and that's nuts. I actually thought France might pile into our breakdown, maybe without Le Roux the coaches didn't trust the emotion of a French pack, if they thought fanning out was going to beat sub 1 seconds rucks someone needs a word

France had a pretty successful pop at the breakdown I thought, and when Wilson went off we looked a little more vulnerable there I thought. And that's without a classic jackler in their ranks.

[Digby]

This style of play, really fast playing of the ball looks so much more sensible than slowly playing the ball and then try to rattle the ball around at speed between Ford and Farrell to flummox a defence or ask Billy or Mako to start something from nothing.

That said nobody has piled into our breakdown yet, that would be a risk with how England are moving resources around but someone is going to try it because it looks more sensible than trying to defend a lot of rucks that aren't just below 2 seconds, some are below 1 second, and that's nuts. I actually thought France might pile into our breakdown, maybe without Le Roux the coaches didn't trust the emotion of a French pack, if they thought fanning out was going to beat sub 1 seconds rucks someone needs a word

France had a pretty successful pop at the breakdown I thought, and when Wilson went off we looked a little more vulnerable there I thought. And that's without a classic jackler in their ranks.

When we got isolated they went in. But they choose to defend lots of fast rucks rather than put bodies in as a norm. Either way it's a trade off, just a little surprised they didn't try something else given we were causing problems. Mind I was also surprised they kicked so little and so badly, that felt like Dupont and Jalibert getting caught up in the rush of such a fast game

[twitchy]

[Puja]

On another note did Willemse stick his studs into Daly? And was that an accident, or was it an accident that he knew that would happen if he pushed forwards as he did?

Of course the first question there might be was it even Willemse? My initial reaction to it happening was if that's happened by complete accident it'd be an unusual thing

It looked pretty bad, but I think it was just an unfortunate accident - the French player had his head buried in the ruck and was just driving forwards.

Puja

[Digby]

On another note did Willemse stick his studs into Daly? And was that an accident, or was it an accident that he knew that would happen if he pushed forwards as he did?

Of course the first question there might be was it even Willemse? My initial reaction to it happening was if that's happened by complete accident it'd be an unusual thing

It looked pretty bad, but I think it was just an unfortunate accident - the French player had his head buried in the ruck and was just driving forwards.

Puja

My gut take was it was similar to Lawes charging a kicking 10, you'd have a sense of what could happen and you'd just commit to it with an action you'd claim was legal. But that was a one time live on TV reaction, I didn't see any replay even as I went to get another bottle of beer, I'm not posh like Mells drinking wine watching the rugby

[Digby]

Is that the Curry jackal where everyone but the ref thought how's that legal?

[FKAS]

Is that the Curry jackal where everyone but the ref thought how's that legal?

There was a couple of those for both teams. I was quite happy the ref overturned the one at the end even though I'm English because that should never have been our penalty.

[FKAS]

This style of play, really fast playing of the ball looks so much more sensible than slowly playing the ball and then try to rattle the ball around at speed between Ford and Farrell to flummox a defence or ask Billy or Mako to start something from nothing.

That said nobody has piled into our breakdown yet, that would be a risk with how England are moving resources around but someone is going to try it because it looks more sensible than trying to defend a lot of rucks that aren't just below 2 seconds, some are below 1 second, and that's nuts. I actually thought France might pile into our breakdown, maybe without Le Roux the coaches didn't trust the emotion of a French pack, if they thought fanning out was going to beat sub 1 seconds rucks someone needs a word

Playing at that tempo makes charging into our breakdown a high risk strategy. You might get turnovers (and France did) but it might also mean if you don't slow the ball down then England are attacking a defence that is missing players because they are tied up in the ruck.

[Digby]

This style of play, really fast playing of the ball looks so much more sensible than slowly playing the ball and then try to rattle the ball around at speed between Ford and Farrell to flummox a defence or ask Billy or Mako to start something from nothing.

That said nobody has piled into our breakdown yet, that would be a risk with how England are moving resources around but someone is going to try it because it looks more sensible than trying to defend a lot of rucks that aren't just below 2 seconds, some are below 1 second, and that's nuts. I actually thought France might pile into our breakdown, maybe without Le Roux the coaches didn't trust the emotion of a French pack, if they thought fanning out was going to beat sub 1 seconds rucks someone needs a word

Playing at that tempo makes charging into our breakdown a high risk strategy. You might get turnovers (and France did) but it might also mean if you don't slow the ball down then England are attacking a defence that is missing players because they are tied up in the ruck.

I agree it'd be a risk. I just think choosing to defend not just sub 2 second rucks but sub 1.5 second rucks and even sub 1 second rucks is also a high risk strategy. There's a tradeoff to be had, and what France elected for was a losing strategy in a game which whilst we conceded too many pens wasn't defined by us giving away pens

I suspect a lot of defence coaches would like to see what happens if someone tries it and how they try it, i.e. do they go on phase 1, or every third phase, do you pair that with a blended blitz/drift. We're only 4 games into our new attack and obviously there's going to be a response, because I just cannot see how you defend that much pace in phase play. England aren't even being that accurate and are causing big problems

[Digby]

Is that the Curry jackal where everyone but the ref thought how's that legal?

There was a couple of those for both teams. I was quite happy the ref overturned the one at the end even though I'm English because that should never have been our penalty.

Not sure how that one at the end was revered, I'm choosing to hope it was a call from the touch judge.

It was an interesting game, if Curry gets a yellow there, if France's locks don't give away 2 cretinous penalties, and maybe we don't get the lineout pen where Willemse ripped the ball away that game could have skewed massively in proceedings. And we'd probably be going nuts about penalties again when almost nothing had changed from a game we probably all hugely enjoyed, we could've lost that at the end (or not won it) and I'd still have enjoyed that game.

[Raggs]

Is that the Curry jackal where everyone but the ref thought how's that legal?

There was a couple of those for both teams. I was quite happy the ref overturned the one at the end even though I'm English because that should never have been our penalty.

Not sure how that one at the end was revered, I'm choosing to hope it was a call from the touch judge.

It was an interesting game, if Curry gets a yellow there, if France's locks don't give away 2 cretinous penalties, and maybe we don't get the lineout pen where Willemse ripped the ball away that game could have skewed massively in proceedings. And we'd probably be going nuts about penalties again when almost nothing had changed from a game we probably all hugely enjoyed, we could've lost that at the end (or not won it) and I'd still have enjoyed that game.

If Thomas gets called for being in touch from the kick just before that turnover. It's why wingers should have white boots, or at least white outlines (just like Brown got away with the same thing against Aus ages ago).

[16th man]

Is that the Curry jackal where everyone but the ref thought how's that legal?

There was a couple of those for both teams. I was quite happy the ref overturned the one at the end even though I'm English because that should never have been our penalty.

I suppose England can ask why the pen against us for holding on whilst their lock stood on our side of the ruck and blocked the nearest 2 forwards from clearing out wasn't overturned if refs are changing minds on decisions. Couldn't have been any more obvious a case of obstruction and offside really.

[Digby]

There was a couple of those for both teams. I was quite happy the ref overturned the one at the end even though I'm English because that should never have been our penalty.

Not sure how that one at the end was revered, I'm choosing to hope it was a call from the touch judge.

It was an interesting game, if Curry gets a yellow there, if France's locks don't give away 2 cretinous penalties, and maybe we don't get the lineout pen where Willemse ripped the ball away that game could have skewed massively in proceedings. And we'd probably be going nuts about penalties again when almost nothing had changed from a game we probably all hugely enjoyed, we could've lost that at the end (or not won it) and I'd still have enjoyed that game.

If Thomas gets called for being in touch from the kick just before that turnover. It's why wingers should have white boots, or at least white outlines (just like Brown got away with the same thing against Aus ages ago).

You are Clive Woodward and I claim my £5

[Raggs]

You are Clive Woodward and I claim my £5

I don't think he came up with it, but he has a point. It doesn't work all the time, but there's been at least 3 games now where an outside back has had a foot in touch and got away with it, almost certainly due to their white boots. It doesn't do any harm, but if every now and then it helps. Just like you often get away with a forward pass if you're attacking with really high pace going forwards.

[Banquo]

This style of play, really fast playing of the ball looks so much more sensible than slowly playing the ball and then try to rattle the ball around at speed between Ford and Farrell to flummox a defence or ask Billy or Mako to start something from nothing.

That said nobody has piled into our breakdown yet, that would be a risk with how England are moving resources around but someone is going to try it because it looks more sensible than trying to defend a lot of rucks that aren't just below 2 seconds, some are below 1 second, and that's nuts. I actually thought France might pile into our breakdown, maybe without Le Roux the coaches didn't trust the emotion of a French pack, if they thought fanning out was going to beat sub 1 seconds rucks someone needs a word

France had a pretty successful pop at the breakdown I thought, and when Wilson went off we looked a little more vulnerable there I thought. And that's without a classic jackler in their ranks.

When we got isolated they went in. But they choose to defend lots of fast rucks rather than put bodies in as a norm. Either way it's a trade off, just a little surprised they didn't try something else given we were causing problems. Mind I was also surprised they kicked so little and so badly, that felt like Dupont and Jalibert getting caught up in the rush of such a fast game

Most sides do, most sides pick and choose. I think we possibly over-resourced some defensive rucks.

[Banquo]

There was a couple of those for both teams. I was quite happy the ref overturned the one at the end even though I'm English because that should never have been our penalty.

Not sure how that one at the end was revered, I'm choosing to hope it was a call from the touch judge.

It was an interesting game, if Curry gets a yellow there, if France's locks don't give away 2 cretinous penalties, and maybe we don't get the lineout pen where Willemse ripped the ball away that game could have skewed massively in proceedings. And we'd probably be going nuts about penalties again when almost nothing had changed from a game we probably all hugely enjoyed, we could've lost that at the end (or not won it) and I'd still have enjoyed that game.

If Thomas gets called for being in touch from the kick just before that turnover. It's why wingers should have white boots, or at least white outlines (just like Brown got away with the same thing against Aus ages ago).

Yes, I'd forgotten that particular scream at the telly moment- and there was a forward pass almost straight after too.

[Digby]

France had a pretty successful pop at the breakdown I thought, and when Wilson went off we looked a little more vulnerable there I thought. And that's without a classic jackler in their ranks.

When we got isolated they went in. But they choose to defend lots of fast rucks rather than put bodies in as a norm. Either way it's a trade off, just a little surprised they didn't try something else given we were causing problems. Mind I was also surprised they kicked so little and so badly, that felt like Dupont and Jalibert getting caught up in the rush of such a fast game

Most sides do, most sides pick and choose. I think we possibly over-resourced some defensive rucks.

Most sides aren't playing the ball as fast as England. If England get a smidge more accuracy they're going to rip someone a new something or other, if they get Manu back (though it seems not) they'd rip them two.

Else what's the plan for defending England, hope the weather was like last Wednesday/Thursday not yesterday's much nicer conditions? That's not a plan, nor is hope England don't pick their options well and don't have a power running option in the backs.

[Banquo]

When we got isolated they went in. But they choose to defend lots of fast rucks rather than put bodies in as a norm. Either way it's a trade off, just a little surprised they didn't try something else given we were causing problems. Mind I was also surprised they kicked so little and so badly, that felt like Dupont and Jalibert getting caught up in the rush of such a fast game

Most sides do, most sides pick and choose. I think we possibly over-resourced some defensive rucks.

Most sides aren't playing the ball as fast as England. If England get a smidge more accuracy they're going to rip someone a new something or other, if they get Manu back (though it seems not) they'd rip them two.

Else what's the plan for defending England, hope the weather was like last Wednesday/Thursday not yesterday's much nicer conditions? That's not a plan, nor is hope England don't pick their options well and don't have a power running option in the backs.

pick and choose, like France did. We did not rip them a new one- and they stifled a lot of our attack at the 22 by dint of targeting those breakdowns. They maybe figured our accuracy wasn't so good, and we'd eventually make a mistake. Its A plan, whether its the right one or not....previously you've said its a trade off, and I agree.

[Raggs]

When we got isolated they went in. But they choose to defend lots of fast rucks rather than put bodies in as a norm. Either way it's a trade off, just a little surprised they didn't try something else given we were causing problems. Mind I was also surprised they kicked so little and so badly, that felt like Dupont and Jalibert getting caught up in the rush of such a fast game

Most sides do, most sides pick and choose. I think we possibly over-resourced some defensive rucks.

Most sides aren't playing the ball as fast as England. If England get a smidge more accuracy they're going to rip someone a new something or other, if they get Manu back (though it seems not) they'd rip them two.

Else what's the plan for defending England, hope the weather was like last Wednesday/Thursday not yesterday's much nicer conditions? That's not a plan, nor is hope England don't pick their options well and don't have a power running option in the backs.

If Odogwu can actually get a game, or have a chance to continue his development at 13, he could be that Tuilagi replacement. He's not as powerful as Manu, but I think he has better footwork and acceleration, whilst still being powerful (there's a clip in an England Rugby video, where you see the size of his legs, it's ludicrous).

[Banquo]

Most sides do, most sides pick and choose. I think we possibly over-resourced some defensive rucks.

Most sides aren't playing the ball as fast as England. If England get a smidge more accuracy they're going to rip someone a new something or other, if they get Manu back (though it seems not) they'd rip them two.

Else what's the plan for defending England, hope the weather was like last Wednesday/Thursday not yesterday's much nicer conditions? That's not a plan, nor is hope England don't pick their options well and don't have a power running option in the backs.

If Odogwu can actually get a game, or have a chance to continue his development at 13, he could be that Tuilagi replacement. He's not as powerful as Manu, but I think he has better footwork and acceleration, whilst still being powerful (there's a clip in an England Rugby video, where you see the size of his legs, it's ludicrous).

How much time has he had so far at 13? I'm kind of agreeing that he needs more time there, but he really can't learn his trade at 13 internationally. We saw Slade get torn a new one to coin a diggers phrase, and he has a shed ton of experience at 13.

Your point about footwork and acceleration v bulk in midfield is well made.

[Mikey Brown]

I’m not sure if I’ve simply turned into a negative, anti-English bore recently or what, but I feel like England need a bit more than a “smidge” of improvement in accuracy to get things fully in sync in that backline.

But yeah swap Tuilagi, or someone offering a similar threat, in there and maybe it wouldn’t even matter.

[Raggs]

I’m not sure if I’ve simply turned into a negative, anti-English bore recently or what, but I feel like England need a bit more than a “smidge” of improvement in accuracy to get things fully in sync in that backline.

But yeah swap Tuilagi in there and maybe it wouldn’t even matter.

We need more than a smidge of improvement in accuracy to do really well, I do agree that a bigger presence in the centres will really help, Lawrence would likely fill that role well enough too, but we're very close. A Lawrence of Odogwu (who's played in the forwards when younger), will also help maintain that ruck speed when we start to go wider and don't have as many resources from the forwards.