Lions Captain

[Spiffy]

I'd go for Hogg. Totally committed, leads by example, best player in his position, hard as nails etc.
I know some here insist the captain must be a forward (they can post the reasons why if they want to) , but another Scottish FB , Hastings, did a good job, and Welsh centre Dawes was one of the best Lions captains ever.
Hogg is probably a tad more secure in holding down a starting test slot than Alun Wyn Jones, the only other realistic candidate, though either could do a job. Gatland may go for the Welsh option.

[Cameo]

I'd love it to happen but suspect it will be Itoje or AWJ. Both fit how Garland wants them to play more I think.

I do have doubts about this tour though. A three match tour (I dunno if the warm ups will happen) against an undercooked SA team just seems to lose what is meant to make the Lions special. It has lost its gloss anyway for me but losing the old school tour aspect may be a killer.

[Spiffy]

I'd love it to happen but suspect it will be Itoje or AWJ. Both fit how Garland wants them to play more I think.

I do have doubts about this tour though. A three match tour (I dunno if the warm ups will happen) against an undercooked SA team just seems to lose what is meant to make the Lions special. It has lost its gloss anyway for me but losing the old school tour aspect may be a killer.

I don't see why Itoje is widely touted as Lions captain. He has never captained any team at top level and has a poor disciplinary record, not the man to lead by example. But he is a great lock and likely test starter.

[Buggaluggs]

Hogg's too feisty. AWJ will be captain, no doubt. As for the backs...every position has 2-3 worthy candidates. There's some class acts will be sitting at home.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I’m not sure why disciplinary records comes into it. Johnson and OConnell both gave away plenty of penalties.

Though I agree regarding Itoje and experience. He’s not really got any at the top level so would be a punt.

[twitchy]

Lions thread here:

http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/viewtop ... =28&t=4297

[Digby]

Hogg's too feisty. AWJ will be captain, no doubt. As for the backs...every position has 2-3 worthy candidates. There's some class acts will be sitting at home.

In the back three maybe. Beyond that the main edge the Lions might have, should the tour go ahead, is SA just don't play rugby anymore, in many senses

[FKAS]

Hogg's too feisty. AWJ will be captain, no doubt. As for the backs...every position has 2-3 worthy candidates. There's some class acts will be sitting at home.

AWJ will be captain even though he gives away plenty of penalties close to his line when the pressure comes on and was probably the fifth best lock from the home nations in the tournament this year. Even then fifth might be too high a placing for him.

[Buggaluggs]

Hogg's too feisty. AWJ will be captain, no doubt. As for the backs...every position has 2-3 worthy candidates. There's some class acts will be sitting at home.

AWJ will be captain even though he gives away plenty of penalties close to his line when the pressure comes on and was probably the fifth best lock from the home nations in the tournament this year. Even then fifth might be too high a placing for him.

Don't know what you were watching. Fifth best? Ha.

[Hooky]

Hogg's too feisty. AWJ will be captain, no doubt. As for the backs...every position has 2-3 worthy candidates. There's some class acts will be sitting at home.

AWJ will be captain even though he gives away plenty of penalties close to his line when the pressure comes on and was probably the fifth best lock from the home nations in the tournament this year. Even then fifth might be too high a placing for him.

Rugby is this game played with an oval ball and fifteen men per side. Look it up.

[FKAS]

Hogg's too feisty. AWJ will be captain, no doubt. As for the backs...every position has 2-3 worthy candidates. There's some class acts will be sitting at home.

AWJ will be captain even though he gives away plenty of penalties close to his line when the pressure comes on and was probably the fifth best lock from the home nations in the tournament this year. Even then fifth might be too high a placing for him.

Don't know what you were watching. Fifth best? Ha.

He was a liability Vs France and should have been binned before the French red card for a no arms tackle. He went some distance to throw away the Welsh GrandSlam. Much like Farrell his impact is overstated because he's the captain.

I'd take any of Beirne, Henderson and Ryan as playing better this 6N. Gray for Scotland was mightily impressive when he played. That puts AWJ at fifth ahead of his talked up competition for captain in Itoje. I'd hope AWJ only tours as a leader and mentor in the squad but it's Gatland so he'll probably play him and make a mess of a tour we should win like he did against the ABs where awful selection cost us the first test.

[Mellsblue]

Ah, good to see some Welshies crossing the RR border. It’s like the good old days when even the slightest criticism (not that I agree with this particular one) of a Welsh player is met with a post stating that you can’t truly understand rugby.
Don’t forget to name your sources, everyone.

[Mellsblue]

Hogg's too feisty. AWJ will be captain, no doubt. As for the backs...every position has 2-3 worthy candidates. There's some class acts will be sitting at home.

AWJ will be captain even though he gives away plenty of penalties close to his line when the pressure comes on and was probably the fifth best lock from the home nations in the tournament this year. Even then fifth might be too high a placing for him.

Rugby is this game played with fifteen men per side. Look it up.

Unless you’re playing against Wales

[Digby]

Don’t forget to name your sources, everyone.

And as ever, if it's not in Turkish you haven't understood the situation

[stevedog1980]

AWJ will be captain even though he gives away plenty of penalties close to his line when the pressure comes on and was probably the fifth best lock from the home nations in the tournament this year. Even then fifth might be too high a placing for him.

Don't know what you were watching. Fifth best? Ha.

He was a liability Vs France and should have been binned before the French red card for a no arms tackle. He went some distance to throw away the Welsh GrandSlam. Much like Farrell his impact is overstated because he's the captain.

I'd take any of Beirne, Henderson and Ryan as playing better this 6N. Gray for Scotland was mightily impressive when he played. That puts AWJ at fifth ahead of his talked up competition for captain in Itoje. I'd hope AWJ only tours as a leader and mentor in the squad but it's Gatland so he'll probably play him and make a mess of a tour we should win like he did against the ABs where awful selection cost us the first test.

I know this wasn't your comment but I don't understand where the idea that Hogg is "too feisty" has come from. He's been respectful with the referees and put forward his case whenever he's had the opportunity, isn't that what all good captains do? He'd be my choice.

I'm interested to know what you thought of Cummings for Scotland? He doesn't seem to get much of a mention from anyone and to be honest I think he's been outstanding. Obviously, being Scottish I paid more attention to his play than others would but I'm just curious as to whether or not other countries have picked up on how good he is? I'm not suggesting him as a possible captain or even a tourist. Also, I would agree with your listing and where you've got AWJ.

[Banquo]

Don't know what you were watching. Fifth best? Ha.

He was a liability Vs France and should have been binned before the French red card for a no arms tackle. He went some distance to throw away the Welsh GrandSlam. Much like Farrell his impact is overstated because he's the captain.

I'd take any of Beirne, Henderson and Ryan as playing better this 6N. Gray for Scotland was mightily impressive when he played. That puts AWJ at fifth ahead of his talked up competition for captain in Itoje. I'd hope AWJ only tours as a leader and mentor in the squad but it's Gatland so he'll probably play him and make a mess of a tour we should win like he did against the ABs where awful selection cost us the first test.

I know this wasn't your comment but I don't understand where the idea that Hogg is "too feisty" has come from. He's been respectful with the referees and put forward his case whenever he's had the opportunity, isn't that what all good captains do? He'd be my choice.

I'm interested to know what you thought of Cummings for Scotland? He doesn't seem to get much of a mention from anyone and to be honest I think he's been outstanding. Obviously, being Scottish I paid more attention to his play than others would but I'm just curious as to whether or not other countries have picked up on how good he is? I'm not suggesting him as a possible captain or even a tourist. Also, I would agree with your listing and where you've got AWJ.

Very tricky captaining a side from 15, even more so the Lions imo, and against SA, its all about fronting up, up front.

[whatisthejava]

Don't know what you were watching. Fifth best? Ha.

I dont want to come accross all trolly but AWJ isnt the best, i dont think he has dropped, its just the quality in others is sky high

Even ignoring Itoje who for me shouldnt tour

Henderson - Against England was amazing
Gray - Against England he bossed the English, i think he missed one tackle out of 4 games and carried like a demon
Beirne - The guy is a nuisance in the air and hits rucks and turns over ball like its not there
Ryan - Had a quieter 6N but still had the better of the welsh forwards in the head to head

Even at the stat level his age is showing I dont think he hits the rucks others do, carries as others do, and his mis tackle rate is higher.

I dont want to come negative about it but alot of other locks put hteir hand up and shouldnt be ignored so AWJ can have a fairy tale ending for the sake of it.

On a final point

Do you believe AWJ would be starting for Exeter
Or Leinster
Or Munster
Or Ulster

Because I dont.

[whatisthejava]

Very tricky captaining a side from 15, even more so the Lions imo, and against SA, its all about fronting up, up front.

Im not convinced by this argument, lots of people make it and a phsyically intimidating captain is good, but its not essential, especially now when captaincy is nothing more than ref management.

Hogg did that well during the 6N as well as being guarenteed his spot

[Timbo]

‘whatisthejava’, how do you rationalise not taking Itoje?

[Banquo]

Very tricky captaining a side from 15, even more so the Lions imo, and against SA, its all about fronting up, up front.

Im not convinced by this argument,

I can live with that.

Who are these 'lots of people' to whom you refer?

[stevedog1980]

Very tricky captaining a side from 15, even more so the Lions imo, and against SA, its all about fronting up, up front.

I would agree that it used to be, but with the way the game is now I don't believe it is. With appointed lineout leaders, defensive leaders etc. it is much more about decision making and ref management rather than team management.

Add into that, the way the game slows down and stops at almost every lineout and every scrum, there's more time than ever for the captain to have a word in the ear of the referees. These days, if the captain needs to have a word before a scrum or a lineout all you need is for a front rower to drop down "injured", the water carriers come on and the captain can chat away to their hearts content

[whatisthejava]

I posted this on the other thread but wiull add it here as it states my position on the stats

- All stats taken from the official website

Itoje had the second highest missed tackle rate, was inefficitive carrying and conceded more penalties than all other 2nd rows combined - but did single handly get 5 turnovers

Those stats would be bad for the lions

AWJ - Conceded 6 penalties, again more than everyone else if you dont count Itoje, missed 5% of tackles and has a far less % and has second lowest % of carrys per minute and meters made per carry

Its fairly easy to research this, so im not on some crusade to being a dick, but really showing why Itoje and AWJ really cant be assured of their spot and why i would suggest that the other coaches will use to justify other players


(By the way i didnt include Dominant tacke because that is a dick stat, but AWJ came out on top)

[whatisthejava]

I cant upload the raw data but you can checkout the stats here if anyone things im a lying cheating Itoje hating bastard

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/

[Banquo]

Very tricky captaining a side from 15, even more so the Lions imo, and against SA, its all about fronting up, up front.

I would agree that it used to be, but with the way the game is now I don't believe it is. With appointed lineout leaders, defensive leaders etc. it is much more about decision making and ref management rather than team management.

Add into that, the way the game slows down and stops at almost every lineout and every scrum, there's more time than ever for the captain to have a word in the ear of the referees. These days, if the captain needs to have a word before a scrum or a lineout all you need is for a front rower to drop down "injured", the water carriers come on and the captain can chat away to their hearts content

I still think its all of the above, plus a Lions captain has to do a big 'squad' job. Forwards often don't react well to backs . I'd also say that onfield discipline is very much down to the skipper,- I can't imagine England shipping that many penalties had Jonno been in charge and on the park . I'd also say its much easier to chat to the ref when you are on the spot, than running in from 15 to make a point.

[Banquo]

I posted this on the other thread but wiull add it here as it states my position on the stats

- All stats taken from the official website

Itoje had the second highest missed tackle rate, was inefficitive carrying and conceded more penalties than all other 2nd rows combined - but did single handly get 5 turnovers

Those stats would be bad for the lions

AWJ - Conceded 6 penalties, again more than everyone else if you dont count Itoje, missed 5% of tackles and has a far less % and has second lowest % of carrys per minute and meters made per carry

Its fairly easy to research this, so im not on some crusade to being a dick, but really showing why Itoje and AWJ really cant be assured of their spot and why i would suggest that the other coaches will use to justify other players


(By the way i didnt include Dominant tacke because that is a dick stat, but AWJ came out on top)

Not sure why you've quoted me, I didn't mention Itoje.