Lions Captain

[whatisthejava]

Not sure why you've quoted me, I didn't mention Itoje.

Timbo did, but i couldnt be bothered writing the message 3 times

[Timbo]

I posted this on the other thread but wiull add it here as it states my position on the stats

- All stats taken from the official website

Itoje had the second highest missed tackle rate, was inefficitive carrying and conceded more penalties than all other 2nd rows combined - but did single handly get 5 turnovers

Those stats would be bad for the lions

AWJ - Conceded 6 penalties, again more than everyone else if you dont count Itoje, missed 5% of tackles and has a far less % and has second lowest % of carrys per minute and meters made per carry

Its fairly easy to research this, so im not on some crusade to being a dick, but really showing why Itoje and AWJ really cant be assured of their spot and why i would suggest that the other coaches will use to justify other players


(By the way i didnt include Dominant tacke because that is a dick stat, but AWJ came out on top)

Yeah, some of his stats from the last few weeks aren’t great. Equally, as you say, some of disruptive work has still been top notch; turnovers at ruck and tackle, dominant tackles (dick stat?) and his ruck stats are always phenomenal- most effective attacking rucks hit in the tournament etc.

But mainly, the Lions isn’t a 6 nations team of the tournament minus the french. You want the absolute best players on tour and hope that everyone is firing come the tests (which are still 4 months away, btw). It would be a hard argument to say that anywhere near his best Itoje isn’t in the top 4/5 second rows in the northern hemisphere- you could quite easily make a case for him being the best forward available to the Lions full stop over the last 2 years.

He’s had a couple of iffy games, but it’s inconceivable to me that you’d want to head out to South Africa with Itoje sat at home. He’s hit heights in the recent past that, frankly, most/all of those other second rows can’t get near (other than maybe James Ryan).

[Banquo]

I posted this on the other thread but wiull add it here as it states my position on the stats

- All stats taken from the official website

Itoje had the second highest missed tackle rate, was inefficitive carrying and conceded more penalties than all other 2nd rows combined - but did single handly get 5 turnovers

Those stats would be bad for the lions

AWJ - Conceded 6 penalties, again more than everyone else if you dont count Itoje, missed 5% of tackles and has a far less % and has second lowest % of carrys per minute and meters made per carry

Its fairly easy to research this, so im not on some crusade to being a dick, but really showing why Itoje and AWJ really cant be assured of their spot and why i would suggest that the other coaches will use to justify other players


(By the way i didnt include Dominant tacke because that is a dick stat, but AWJ came out on top)

Yeah, some of his stats from the last few weeks aren’t great. Equally, as you say, some of disruptive work has still been top notch; turnovers at ruck and tackle, dominant tackles (dick stat?) and his ruck stats are always phenomenal- most effective attacking rucks hit in the tournament etc.

But mainly, the Lions isn’t a 6 nations team of the tournament minus the french. You want the absolute best players on tour and hope that everyone is firing come the tests (which are still 4 months away, btw). It would be a hard argument to say that anywhere near his best Itoje isn’t in the top 4/5 second rows in the northern hemisphere- you could quite easily make a case for him being the best forward available to the Lions full stop over the last 2 years.

He’s had a couple of iffy games, but it’s inconceivable to me that you’d want to head out to South Africa with Itoje sat at home. He’s hit heights in the recent past that, frankly, most/all of those other second rows can’t get near (other than maybe James Ryan).

In form, or maybe better, in a form team, he's a world XV player. You can't say that about many, if any, other prospective Lions.....lights blue touch paper...

[Digby]

I can only hope the jamboree leaves Itoje behind

[Puja]

I can only hope the jamboree leaves Itoje behind

Because what this 6N has shown, above all else, is that Maro Itoje needs to play fewer top-level games.

Puja

[Digby]

I can only hope the jamboree leaves Itoje behind

Because what this 6N has shown, above all else, is that Maro Itoje needs to play fewer top-level games.

Puja

Assuming rugby has a future they'll be plenty of games from next season

[Puja]

On that note, I actually agree with whatisthejava - Itoje with an extra couple of months of ring rustiness is more of a liability than an asset. Maybe, on a long format Lions tour, you'd trust the warmups to bring him to readiness, but not on whatever curtailed make-do will happen this summer.

If I was Gatland, I'd tell him that if he doesn't play competitive rugby for the rest of the season, he doesn't tour. Get a loan to Super Rugby or a Premiership team, but he has to be playing and has to be in form or he's not involved.

Puja

[Puja]

I can only hope the jamboree leaves Itoje behind

Because what this 6N has shown, above all else, is that Maro Itoje needs to play fewer top-level games.

Puja

Assuming rugby has a future they'll be plenty of games from next season

None of them at this level.

Puja

[Banquo]

On that note, I actually agree with whatisthejava - Itoje with an extra couple of months of ring rustiness is more of a liability than an asset. Maybe, on a long format Lions tour, you'd trust the warmups to bring him to readiness, but not on whatever curtailed make-do will happen this summer.

If I was Gatland, I'd tell him that if he doesn't play competitive rugby for the rest of the season, he doesn't tour. Get a loan to Super Rugby or a Premiership team, but he has to be playing and has to be in form or he's not involved.

Puja

what is the gap between the end of the season for the average Lion, and the start of the Lions tour?

[Puja]

On that note, I actually agree with whatisthejava - Itoje with an extra couple of months of ring rustiness is more of a liability than an asset. Maybe, on a long format Lions tour, you'd trust the warmups to bring him to readiness, but not on whatever curtailed make-do will happen this summer.

If I was Gatland, I'd tell him that if he doesn't play competitive rugby for the rest of the season, he doesn't tour. Get a loan to Super Rugby or a Premiership team, but he has to be playing and has to be in form or he's not involved.

Puja

what is the gap between the end of the season for the average Lion, and the start of the Lions tour?

Is there one? I thought there was a row about the Premiership final daring to be in the usual position and thus encroaching on the Lions schedule.

Puja

[Banquo]

On that note, I actually agree with whatisthejava - Itoje with an extra couple of months of ring rustiness is more of a liability than an asset. Maybe, on a long format Lions tour, you'd trust the warmups to bring him to readiness, but not on whatever curtailed make-do will happen this summer.

If I was Gatland, I'd tell him that if he doesn't play competitive rugby for the rest of the season, he doesn't tour. Get a loan to Super Rugby or a Premiership team, but he has to be playing and has to be in form or he's not involved.

Puja

what is the gap between the end of the season for the average Lion, and the start of the Lions tour?

Is there one? I thought there was a row about the Premiership final daring to be in the usual position and thus encroaching on the Lions schedule.

Puja

thats why i asked, i dont know

[FKAS]

Don't know what you were watching. Fifth best? Ha.

I dont want to come accross all trolly but AWJ isnt the best, i dont think he has dropped, its just the quality in others is sky high

Even ignoring Itoje who for me shouldnt tour

Henderson - Against England was amazing
Gray - Against England he bossed the English, i think he missed one tackle out of 4 games and carried like a demon
Beirne - The guy is a nuisance in the air and hits rucks and turns over ball like its not there
Ryan - Had a quieter 6N but still had the better of the welsh forwards in the head to head

Even at the stat level his age is showing I dont think he hits the rucks others do, carries as others do, and his mis tackle rate is higher.

I dont want to come negative about it but alot of other locks put hteir hand up and shouldnt be ignored so AWJ can have a fairy tale ending for the sake of it.

On a final point

Do you believe AWJ would be starting for Exeter
Or Leinster
Or Munster
Or Ulster

Because I dont.

Based on 6N I'd agree with most of that. I'd expect Itoje to your though the assumption he'd be starting every test has gone out the window. He, when in form, is one of the best players in the world so you'd assume the Lions would give him the chance to stake a claim. He's very well spoken as well so he's the kind of person you could trot out in front of the cameras to talk if he isn't going to start so the starters can concentrate with the game in hand.

Based on the 6N I'd look at something like;

4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6. Beirne
7. Watson
8. Curry

19. Itoje
20. Falatau

Unleash the bench on 55 minutes after annoying the Boks by using the three jumpers to attack their lineout, Henderson to attack their rolling maul and the backrow to be a nuisance at every breakdown. The three locks can carry the hard yards which frees up Curry to hit lines (which he is good at even if England can't utilise it) and Watson to do his pinball thing further from the ruck than he has to do for Scotland.

If the tour captain didn't have to captain on match day I'd give it AWJ but because there would be so much media furore if he was tour captain but not playing I don't think you can give it to him.

[whatisthejava]

Based on 6N I'd agree with most of that. I'd expect Itoje to your though the assumption he'd be starting every test has gone out the window. He, when in form, is one of the best players in the world so you'd assume the Lions would give him the chance to stake a claim. He's very well spoken as well so he's the kind of person you could trot out in front of the cameras to talk if he isn't going to start so the starters can concentrate with the game in hand.

Based on the 6N I'd look at something like;

4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6. Beirne
7. Watson
8. Curry

19. Itoje
20. Falatau

Unleash the bench on 55 minutes after annoying the Boks by using the three jumpers to attack their lineout, Henderson to attack their rolling maul and the backrow to be a nuisance at every breakdown. The three locks can carry the hard yards which frees up Curry to hit lines (which he is good at even if England can't utilise it) and Watson to do his pinball thing further from the ruck than he has to do for Scotland.

If the tour captain didn't have to captain on match day I'd give it AWJ but because there would be so much media furore if he was tour captain but not playing I don't think you can give it to him.

I could live with that, not sure id want Curry at 8, would prefer him on the bench to cover all 3

[Digby]

Because what this 6N has shown, above all else, is that Maro Itoje needs to play fewer top-level games.

Puja

Assuming rugby has a future they'll be plenty of games from next season

None of them at this level.

Puja

Granted I expect those games wouldn't be for scratch teams nor against teams who aren't playing any rugby themselves

[stevedog1980]

Don't know what you were watching. Fifth best? Ha.

I dont want to come accross all trolly but AWJ isnt the best, i dont think he has dropped, its just the quality in others is sky high

Even ignoring Itoje who for me shouldnt tour

Henderson - Against England was amazing
Gray - Against England he bossed the English, i think he missed one tackle out of 4 games and carried like a demon
Beirne - The guy is a nuisance in the air and hits rucks and turns over ball like its not there
Ryan - Had a quieter 6N but still had the better of the welsh forwards in the head to head

Even at the stat level his age is showing I dont think he hits the rucks others do, carries as others do, and his mis tackle rate is higher.

I dont want to come negative about it but alot of other locks put hteir hand up and shouldnt be ignored so AWJ can have a fairy tale ending for the sake of it.

On a final point

Do you believe AWJ would be starting for Exeter
Or Leinster
Or Munster
Or Ulster

Because I dont.

Based on 6N I'd agree with most of that. I'd expect Itoje to your though the assumption he'd be starting every test has gone out the window. He, when in form, is one of the best players in the world so you'd assume the Lions would give him the chance to stake a claim. He's very well spoken as well so he's the kind of person you could trot out in front of the cameras to talk if he isn't going to start so the starters can concentrate with the game in hand.

Based on the 6N I'd look at something like;

4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6. Beirne
7. Watson
8. Curry

19. Itoje
20. Falatau

Unleash the bench on 55 minutes after annoying the Boks by using the three jumpers to attack their lineout, Henderson to attack their rolling maul and the backrow to be a nuisance at every breakdown. The three locks can carry the hard yards which frees up Curry to hit lines (which he is good at even if England can't utilise it) and Watson to do his pinball thing further from the ruck than he has to do for Scotland.

If the tour captain didn't have to captain on match day I'd give it AWJ but because there would be so much media furore if he was tour captain but not playing I don't think you can give it to him.

If you’re looking for an 8 to exploit running lines and gaps why not Sam Simmonds?

[16th man]

I dont want to come accross all trolly but AWJ isnt the best, i dont think he has dropped, its just the quality in others is sky high

Even ignoring Itoje who for me shouldnt tour

Henderson - Against England was amazing
Gray - Against England he bossed the English, i think he missed one tackle out of 4 games and carried like a demon
Beirne - The guy is a nuisance in the air and hits rucks and turns over ball like its not there
Ryan - Had a quieter 6N but still had the better of the welsh forwards in the head to head

Even at the stat level his age is showing I dont think he hits the rucks others do, carries as others do, and his mis tackle rate is higher.

I dont want to come negative about it but alot of other locks put hteir hand up and shouldnt be ignored so AWJ can have a fairy tale ending for the sake of it.

On a final point

Do you believe AWJ would be starting for Exeter
Or Leinster
Or Munster
Or Ulster

Because I dont.

Based on 6N I'd agree with most of that. I'd expect Itoje to your though the assumption he'd be starting every test has gone out the window. He, when in form, is one of the best players in the world so you'd assume the Lions would give him the chance to stake a claim. He's very well spoken as well so he's the kind of person you could trot out in front of the cameras to talk if he isn't going to start so the starters can concentrate with the game in hand.

Based on the 6N I'd look at something like;

4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6. Beirne
7. Watson
8. Curry

19. Itoje
20. Falatau

Unleash the bench on 55 minutes after annoying the Boks by using the three jumpers to attack their lineout, Henderson to attack their rolling maul and the backrow to be a nuisance at every breakdown. The three locks can carry the hard yards which frees up Curry to hit lines (which he is good at even if England can't utilise it) and Watson to do his pinball thing further from the ruck than he has to do for Scotland.

If the tour captain didn't have to captain on match day I'd give it AWJ but because there would be so much media furore if he was tour captain but not playing I don't think you can give it to him.

If you’re looking for an 8 to exploit running lines and gaps why not Sam Simmonds?

I wonder how many posts it would take in a thread about flakiest full backs ever, for Sam Simmons at 8 to come up.

I'm thinking we could definitely get there inside a couple of pages.

[Digby]

Is it Jonathan Webb or Simon Hodkingson?

If it's not Hodgkinson he did at least go on to inspire the fashion sense of one Donald Trump

[FKAS]

I dont want to come accross all trolly but AWJ isnt the best, i dont think he has dropped, its just the quality in others is sky high

Even ignoring Itoje who for me shouldnt tour

Henderson - Against England was amazing
Gray - Against England he bossed the English, i think he missed one tackle out of 4 games and carried like a demon
Beirne - The guy is a nuisance in the air and hits rucks and turns over ball like its not there
Ryan - Had a quieter 6N but still had the better of the welsh forwards in the head to head

Even at the stat level his age is showing I dont think he hits the rucks others do, carries as others do, and his mis tackle rate is higher.

I dont want to come negative about it but alot of other locks put hteir hand up and shouldnt be ignored so AWJ can have a fairy tale ending for the sake of it.

On a final point

Do you believe AWJ would be starting for Exeter
Or Leinster
Or Munster
Or Ulster

Because I dont.

Based on 6N I'd agree with most of that. I'd expect Itoje to your though the assumption he'd be starting every test has gone out the window. He, when in form, is one of the best players in the world so you'd assume the Lions would give him the chance to stake a claim. He's very well spoken as well so he's the kind of person you could trot out in front of the cameras to talk if he isn't going to start so the starters can concentrate with the game in hand.

Based on the 6N I'd look at something like;

4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6. Beirne
7. Watson
8. Curry

19. Itoje
20. Falatau

Unleash the bench on 55 minutes after annoying the Boks by using the three jumpers to attack their lineout, Henderson to attack their rolling maul and the backrow to be a nuisance at every breakdown. The three locks can carry the hard yards which frees up Curry to hit lines (which he is good at even if England can't utilise it) and Watson to do his pinball thing further from the ruck than he has to do for Scotland.

If the tour captain didn't have to captain on match day I'd give it AWJ but because there would be so much media furore if he was tour captain but not playing I don't think you can give it to him.

If you’re looking for an 8 to exploit running lines and gaps why not Sam Simmonds?

Because the idea was to have the entire backrow being a nightmare for SA at the breakdown so they have to commit numbers in that department and narrow their attack. They've got a lot of pace out wide but of they are committing an extra player or two at every breakdown they probably won't be in the position to use them. Wear down the Boks, ideally get them conceding penalties and as their big pack starts to tire then you bring on a fresh Falatau and Itoje to carry hard. You could set the bench up to deliver front row impact as well.

[Digby]

I really don't think you'll need to encourage SA to narrow their attack

[FKAS]

I really don't think you'll need to encourage SA to narrow their attack

They are very good at direct play you're right but they also know when to use the rapid wingers at their disposal. No point having Kolbe, Nkosi or Mpimpi out in the wing waiting for a kick to chase. They draw you in, hit you wide. Slow that direct attack from the breakdown and you take de Klerk's sniping away.

[morepork]

They haven't played for, like years, so I doubt they'll hit the ground at pace and with width too soon.

[Digby]

I really don't think you'll need to encourage SA to narrow their attack

They are very good at direct play you're right but they also know when to use the rapid wingers at their disposal. No point having Kolbe, Nkosi or Mpimpi out in the wing waiting for a kick to chase. They draw you in, hit you wide. Slow that direct attack from the breakdown and you take de Klerk's sniping away.

Based on the RWC they don't use their wingers. Not unless they've got a penalty advantage

It was just kick, kick, and kick some more. And if you're tempted to play for god sake kick the ball instead and wait for the other side to lose patience. They did it very well, but the questions being asked are can you front up physically in the loose and setpiece, can you show discipline, and can you cover and take kicks

[Puja]

I really don't think you'll need to encourage SA to narrow their attack

They are very good at direct play you're right but they also know when to use the rapid wingers at their disposal. No point having Kolbe, Nkosi or Mpimpi out in the wing waiting for a kick to chase. They draw you in, hit you wide. Slow that direct attack from the breakdown and you take de Klerk's sniping away.

Based on the RWC they don't use their wingers.

Out of interest, who scored their tries in the final?

Puja

[FKAS]

They are very good at direct play you're right but they also know when to use the rapid wingers at their disposal. No point having Kolbe, Nkosi or Mpimpi out in the wing waiting for a kick to chase. They draw you in, hit you wide. Slow that direct attack from the breakdown and you take de Klerk's sniping away.

Based on the RWC they don't use their wingers.

Out of interest, who scored their tries in the final?

Puja

Beat me to it.

All the tries for South Africa in the knock out stages were scored by backs.

[Digby]

Based on the RWC they don't use their wingers.

Out of interest, who scored their tries in the final?

Puja

Beat me to it.

All the tries for South Africa in the knock out stages were scored by backs.

I'm perfectly happy to repeat myself, any amount of evidence for that, and note they'll play with a penalty advantage. But without a penalty advantage you wouldn't need to be much of a mystic to guess what they'd do with possession