Exeter v Leinster Sat 5.30pm

[fivepointer]

Exeter: 15 Stuart Hogg, 14 Olly Woodburn, 13 Henry Slade, 12 Ollie Devoto, 11 Tom O’Flaherty, 10 Joe Simmonds, 9 Jack Maunder, 8 Sam Simmonds, 7 Jacques Vermeulen, 6 Dave Ewers, 5 Jonny Hill, 4 Jonny Gray, 3 Tomas Francis, 2 Luke Cowan-Dickie, 1 Ben Moon
Replacements: 16 Jack Yeandle, 17 Alec Hepburn, 18 Harry Williams, 19 Sam Skinner, 20 Jannes Kirsten, 21 Stu Townsend, 22 Harvey Skinner, 23 Ian Whitten

Leinster: 15 Hugo Keenan, 14 Jordan Larmour, 13 Rory O’Loughlin, 12 Robbie Henshaw, 11 James Lowe, 10 Johnny Sexton (c), 9 Luke McGrath, 8 Jack Conan, 7 Josh van der Flier, 6 Rhys Ruddock, 5 Devin Toner, 4 Scott Fardy, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Rónan Kelleher, 1 Cian Healy
Replacements: 16 James Tracy, 17 Ed Byrne, 18 Andrew Porter, 19 Ross Molony, 20 Ryan Baird, 21 Hugh O’Sullivan, 22 Ross Byrne, 23 Dave Kearney

[Oakboy]

Looking forward to this. I see Greenwood predicts a Leinster win.

[FKAS]

Chiefs form as been all over the place but they have had a significant amount of players missing through injury, suspension and international call ups. Finally getting to name what is pretty much a first choice side is unusual for them this season.

Hard to call. I just want to see a really close hard fought game. Ideally end to end.

[Spiffy]

Good win by a hard-nosed Leinster team after going 14-0 down in the first few minutes. They area well-drilled outfit and hard to beat.

[Timbo]

Leinster were tactically a step above. Just kept putting Exeter in areas they didn’t want to be in, spoiled the breakdown and found ways to get the upper hand at setpiece. Don’t think Chiefs did much wrong really, always small margins and I’m sure they’ll be back. Will be interesting to see what they do to evolve after this defeat. Right now I think they’re a better match for big French teams than a team like Leinster (or possibly a full strength Saracens).

[Timbo]

Also, Johnny Hill was really excellent in this game. Probably the most physical tight 5 forward on either side. Carried fantastically and was smashing people in rucks and tackles. No doubt he’s a good international calibre 2nd row in the making, just needs time to adapt.

Only caveat, is that he plays the same role as Itoje and I don’t think he’s capable of adjusting his game much. He is what he is. I’m not sure they’ll ever be a great partnership.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah, good attitude if he feels he currently has a point to prove, following a lot of hype and now just being known as ‘that enormous weird, hillbilly guy who collapses on top of rucks’.

[Cameo]

That was a fun game. Leinster didn't seem to be able to tackle O'Flattery for some reason but, once they got hold of the ball, looked the more inventive side. Very clinical second half

As an aside, I think Kirsten's hit in the second half illustrated perfectly why hits like Hill's in the first half should be yellow cards. If your way of making a dominant hit is to hit at shoulder height, it's inevitably going to lead to swinging arms to the face, if not worse, a good chunk of the time.

[Oakboy]

That was a fun game. Leinster didn't seem to be able to tackle O'Flattery for some reason but, once they got hold of the ball, looked the more inventive side. Very clinical second half

As an aside, I think Kirsten's hit in the second half illustrated perfectly why hits like Hill's in the first half should be yellow cards. If your way of making a dominant hit is to hit at shoulder height, it's inevitably going to lead to swinging arms to the face, if not worse, a good chunk of the time.

Agreed. The players will simply have to adapt long-term. There remain a few anomalies. No-arms tackles were the big taboo. Now, the wrap-around is being penalised if a bit high (even though the hit was low enough). It's marginal stuff and I agreed with BOD that we might have, arguably, had any one of three outcomes for the incident depending on interpretation.

[fivepointer]

Thought Exe were given a lesson in composure and discipline. They made too many errors and coughed up too many penalties. Leinster tactically got it spot on.
I think Hill would have got a yellow if that happened in the Premiership. Kirsten too likely. French refs maybe a touch more lenient?

[Timbo]

As long as there’s been an attempt at a legal tackle, the new framework basically allows a referee to decide if he thinks head contact has been low, medium or high danger. Low is pk only, medium=yellow, high=red, but each can be mitigated (drop in height for eg) down one level. Raynal decided it was low force, but also said the initial hit from Hill caused a sudden drop in height from the ball carrier meaning the wrapping arm hit the head. So even if deemed ‘medium’ force it would have been mitigated down to pk only. His logic was perfectly sound in fairness.

[Banquo]

Also, Johnny Hill was really excellent in this game. Probably the most physical tight 5 forward on either side. Carried fantastically and was smashing people in rucks and tackles. No doubt he’s a good international calibre 2nd row in the making, just needs time to adapt.

Only caveat, is that he plays the same role as Itoje and I don’t think he’s capable of adjusting his game much. He is what he is. I’m not sure they’ll ever be a great partnership.

what do you think is missing from that pairing, out of interest? I should know, but is Hill a tighthead/right lock- I also had him as a 4 jumper, but could equally be wrong about that.

[FKAS]

Also, Johnny Hill was really excellent in this game. Probably the most physical tight 5 forward on either side. Carried fantastically and was smashing people in rucks and tackles. No doubt he’s a good international calibre 2nd row in the making, just needs time to adapt.

Only caveat, is that he plays the same role as Itoje and I don’t think he’s capable of adjusting his game much. He is what he is. I’m not sure they’ll ever be a great partnership.

what do you think is missing from that pairing, out of interest? I should know, but is Hill a tighthead/right lock- I also had him as a 4 jumper, but could equally be wrong about that.

Have to say I thought that on paper the Hill and Itoje partnership would be perfect. Maybe they'll manage to click yet.

[Banquo]

Also, Johnny Hill was really excellent in this game. Probably the most physical tight 5 forward on either side. Carried fantastically and was smashing people in rucks and tackles. No doubt he’s a good international calibre 2nd row in the making, just needs time to adapt.

Only caveat, is that he plays the same role as Itoje and I don’t think he’s capable of adjusting his game much. He is what he is. I’m not sure they’ll ever be a great partnership.

what do you think is missing from that pairing, out of interest? I should know, but is Hill a tighthead/right lock- I also had him as a 4 jumper, but could equally be wrong about that.

Have to say I thought that on paper the Hill and Itoje partnership would be perfect. Maybe they'll manage to click yet.

Have to say I thought so, but may be missing something?

[Oakboy]

Hill usually does the 80 with Gray making way for Skinner. That indicates to me that Hill has some engine. For England there may have been several factors leading to him being dropped. One obvious factor was that Itoje against Scotland was short of rugby, off form and a disciplinary liability. Jones decided to repair that half of the partnership. Another issue was a simple adjustment to Jones's ways which Ewels was more in-tune with.

[Mellsblue]

Could be that Hill kept giving away silly pens plus the odd spell in the sin bin.

[Timbo]

Also, Johnny Hill was really excellent in this game. Probably the most physical tight 5 forward on either side. Carried fantastically and was smashing people in rucks and tackles. No doubt he’s a good international calibre 2nd row in the making, just needs time to adapt.

Only caveat, is that he plays the same role as Itoje and I don’t think he’s capable of adjusting his game much. He is what he is. I’m not sure they’ll ever be a great partnership.

what do you think is missing from that pairing, out of interest? I should know, but is Hill a tighthead/right lock- I also had him as a 4 jumper, but could equally be wrong about that.

Simply, discipline. They both play so close to the edge from a physical/disruption point of view. No evidence to my mind that either is capable of fully reigning it in, and maybe to get the best out of them as individuals you don’t really want them to. Having the 2 together has proven to be a liability thus far.

From a purely technical/tactical perspective they are fine as a pairing I think.

[Puja]

Also, Johnny Hill was really excellent in this game. Probably the most physical tight 5 forward on either side. Carried fantastically and was smashing people in rucks and tackles. No doubt he’s a good international calibre 2nd row in the making, just needs time to adapt.

Only caveat, is that he plays the same role as Itoje and I don’t think he’s capable of adjusting his game much. He is what he is. I’m not sure they’ll ever be a great partnership.

what do you think is missing from that pairing, out of interest? I should know, but is Hill a tighthead/right lock- I also had him as a 4 jumper, but could equally be wrong about that.

Simply, discipline. They both play so close to the edge from a physical/disruption point of view. No evidence to my mind that either is capable of fully reigning it in, and maybe to get the best out of them as individuals you don’t really want them to. Having the 2 together has proven to be a liability thus far.

From a purely technical/tactical perspective they are fine as a pairing I think.

I'd disagree that both play close to the edge. The vast majority of Hill's penalties were either brainless or awful technique for no real benefit, rather than edgy disruption.

Puja

[Timbo]

what do you think is missing from that pairing, out of interest? I should know, but is Hill a tighthead/right lock- I also had him as a 4 jumper, but could equally be wrong about that.

Simply, discipline. They both play so close to the edge from a physical/disruption point of view. No evidence to my mind that either is capable of fully reigning it in, and maybe to get the best out of them as individuals you don’t really want them to. Having the 2 together has proven to be a liability thus far.

From a purely technical/tactical perspective they are fine as a pairing I think.

I'd disagree that both play close to the edge. The vast majority of Hill's penalties were either brainless or awful technique for no real benefit, rather than edgy disruption.

Puja

Maybe he’s trying too hard for England? Obviously there’s a tipping point, but he’s still very new to international rugby and is worth sticking with for now imo. Watching him yesterday and against the packs of Racing, Toulouse etc and he has a level of physicality that’s pretty rare. You’re not a fan?

[Banquo]

Also, Johnny Hill was really excellent in this game. Probably the most physical tight 5 forward on either side. Carried fantastically and was smashing people in rucks and tackles. No doubt he’s a good international calibre 2nd row in the making, just needs time to adapt.

Only caveat, is that he plays the same role as Itoje and I don’t think he’s capable of adjusting his game much. He is what he is. I’m not sure they’ll ever be a great partnership.

what do you think is missing from that pairing, out of interest? I should know, but is Hill a tighthead/right lock- I also had him as a 4 jumper, but could equally be wrong about that.

Simply, discipline. They both play so close to the edge from a physical/disruption point of view. No evidence to my mind that either is capable of fully reigning it in, and maybe to get the best out of them as individuals you don’t really want them to. Having the 2 together has proven to be a liability thus far.

From a purely technical/tactical perspective they are fine as a pairing I think.

ah ok. Think both could reign it in tbh, but take your point. I think they are pretty complementary as players- mind, any decent lock and itoje at his best would make a good pairing, as Itoje theoretically offers such a lot.

The discipline of the whole team was an issue tbh. Was all a bit random too, not even forced by pressure a lot of the time.

[Puja]

Simply, discipline. They both play so close to the edge from a physical/disruption point of view. No evidence to my mind that either is capable of fully reigning it in, and maybe to get the best out of them as individuals you don’t really want them to. Having the 2 together has proven to be a liability thus far.

From a purely technical/tactical perspective they are fine as a pairing I think.

I'd disagree that both play close to the edge. The vast majority of Hill's penalties were either brainless or awful technique for no real benefit, rather than edgy disruption.

Puja

Maybe he’s trying too hard for England? Obviously there’s a tipping point, but he’s still very new to international rugby and is worth sticking with for now imo. Watching him yesterday and against the packs of Racing, Toulouse etc and he has a level of physicality that’s pretty rare. You’re not a fan?

I was definitely a fan before his England performances and wouldn't necessarily say I'm against him now, but he has a lot to prove before I'll welcome him into the England 5 shirt with more than a "f*ck's sake". I understand nerves or trying too hard, but there were too many that were just too stupid or showed all the coordination of a baby giraffe on ice.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I'd disagree that both play close to the edge. The vast majority of Hill's penalties were either brainless or awful technique for no real benefit, rather than edgy disruption.

Puja

Maybe he’s trying too hard for England? Obviously there’s a tipping point, but he’s still very new to international rugby and is worth sticking with for now imo. Watching him yesterday and against the packs of Racing, Toulouse etc and he has a level of physicality that’s pretty rare. You’re not a fan?

I was definitely a fan before his England performances and wouldn't necessarily say I'm against him now, but he has a lot to prove before I'll welcome him into the England 5 shirt with more than a "f*ck's sake". I understand nerves or trying too hard, but there were too many that were just too stupid or showed all the coordination of a baby giraffe on ice.

Puja

Do you not wonder why he can look so good playing for Baxter and so bad playing for Jones? After all, Exeter, arguably, have played against better XVs than Scotland's so the 'big step-up' to international rugby is of questionable significance, especially in an empty stadium. I think it was more about who he was playing with than against and more about coaching/preparation than individual performance.

[Timbo]

Maybe he’s trying too hard for England? Obviously there’s a tipping point, but he’s still very new to international rugby and is worth sticking with for now imo. Watching him yesterday and against the packs of Racing, Toulouse etc and he has a level of physicality that’s pretty rare. You’re not a fan?

I was definitely a fan before his England performances and wouldn't necessarily say I'm against him now, but he has a lot to prove before I'll welcome him into the England 5 shirt with more than a "f*ck's sake". I understand nerves or trying too hard, but there were too many that were just too stupid or showed all the coordination of a baby giraffe on ice.

Puja

Do you not wonder why he can look so good playing for Baxter and so bad playing for Jones? After all, Exeter, arguably, have played against better XVs than Scotland's so the 'big step-up' to international rugby is of questionable significance, especially in an empty stadium. I think it was more about who he was playing with than against and more about coaching/preparation than individual performance.

International rugby is always a step up, especially 6N’s. Only have to listen to the players to get that. I think he’s actually handled the step up physically very well. As Puja said it’s been his inaccuracy that’s been his downfall. Can only speculate as to why that’s the case, as he’s clearly a talented player. Whatever the reason he really needs to take his next chance or, with Launch and Lawes coming back and youngsters like George Martin coming through he could be done.

[Cameo]

That was a fun game. Leinster didn't seem to be able to tackle O'Flattery for some reason but, once they got hold of the ball, looked the more inventive side. Very clinical second half

As an aside, I think Kirsten's hit in the second half illustrated perfectly why hits like Hill's in the first half should be yellow cards. If your way of making a dominant hit is to hit at shoulder height, it's inevitably going to lead to swinging arms to the face, if not worse, a good chunk of the time.

Agreed. The players will simply have to adapt long-term. There remain a few anomalies. No-arms tackles were the big taboo. Now, the wrap-around is being penalised if a bit high (even though the hit was low enough). It's marginal stuff and I agreed with BOD that we might have, arguably, had any one of three outcomes for the incident depending on interpretation.

Not sure that's an anomaly. You have to use your arms but you can't use the arms to hit someone in the face. Both seemed reckless to me.

[Cameo]

I was definitely a fan before his England performances and wouldn't necessarily say I'm against him now, but he has a lot to prove before I'll welcome him into the England 5 shirt with more than a "f*ck's sake". I understand nerves or trying too hard, but there were too many that were just too stupid or showed all the coordination of a baby giraffe on ice.

Puja

Do you not wonder why he can look so good playing for Baxter and so bad playing for Jones? After all, Exeter, arguably, have played against better XVs than Scotland's so the 'big step-up' to international rugby is of questionable significance, especially in an empty stadium. I think it was more about who he was playing with than against and more about coaching/preparation than individual performance.

International rugby is always a step up, especially 6N’s. Only have to listen to the players to get that. I think he’s actually handled the step up physically very well. As Puja said it’s been his inaccuracy that’s been his downfall. Can only speculate as to why that’s the case, as he’s clearly a talented player. Whatever the reason he really needs to take his next chance or, with Launch and Lawes coming back and youngsters like George Martin coming through he could be done.

Yeah, I thought the game yesterday illustrated that actually. Intense and high quality but it all somehow just seemed a bit easier.

Leinster could just go through their phases making ground most times and looking neat. O'Flattery could break tackles for fun. Sometimes international rugby looks like that but it all seems a bit tougher.