We need to talk about Eddie...

[Which Tyler]

Were you ghosted or something by Jones, Oakboy? You resemble Piers Morgan more each day

I know I disagree with him a lot - but that comparison is way below the belt.

Yellow Card for ungentlemanly conduct

[Oakboy]

Were you ghosted or something by Jones, Oakboy? You resemble Piers Morgan more each day

No, I just love England rugby and I've never been convinced that Jones is good for it.

[Digby]

Which is fine, and the issue here is something you could have been concerned about since Eddie was offered the gig. It's just not something to latch onto on the back of some bad results, not even if you're Ben Kay and have a deeply ungodly affectation with latching

[Oakboy]

I think losing to Scotland, Wales and Ireland is a legitimate concern and If it makes some previous Jones fans (journalists, pundits or spectators) question the whole contractual set-up it is quite reasonable, frankly.

[Scrumhead]

Which is fine, and the issue here is something you could have been concerned about since Eddie was offered the gig. It's just not something to latch onto on the back of some bad results, not even if you're Ben Kay and have a deeply ungodly affectation with latching

Since when has Oakboy ever worried about a rational viewpoint?

[Digby]

Which is fine, and the issue here is something you could have been concerned about since Eddie was offered the gig. It's just not something to latch onto on the back of some bad results, not even if you're Ben Kay and have a deeply ungodly affectation with latching

Since when has Oakboy ever worried about a rational viewpoint?

It does seem odd to think it's a non factor when things are going well but is something which needs to be looked at when things aren't working. When it does look in advance something that'll have pros and cons

[Mellsblue]

I have no major qualms with it, and think it’s a positive in the round, but I suppose the timing isn’t the best. Given what we’ve seen/been put through in the last two tournaments, you’d think he’d realise this isn’t the best look. Coupled with needing a different pool of players and the chance to give a few youngsters/bolters a go, he might be better taking in matches in which those youngsters and bolters are getting more game time* than is usual.

*no scientific or mathematical research or calculations have been undertaken to underpin this swingeing statement, obvs.

[Digby]

What timing isn't the best? The only timing issue is the paper deciding to run the story now, it doesn't sound like Eddie is doing anything differently.

And I'll be shocked if Eddie isn't taking in lots of matches, live and on video. Some coaches will do this more than others, Eddie is surely in the more is more camp on this one. Likely if anything you'd want to tell him to chill, but that might work as well as telling 2001 Jonny he should take a breather

[Mellsblue]

The timing that he’s just presided over the worst 6N performance in decades following the snooze fest and an extra time win over France 3rdXV in the autumn. Just because he’s always done it that way doesn’t mean when circumstances change he shouldn’t perhaps change. The proponents of trench warfare argued we had always fought war in that way and that didn’t go very well. The group that said we’ve always flown open cockpit biplanes and the Spitfire is a dud would’ve lost us the Battle of Britain. When the facts on the ground/air change the defence ‘I’ve always done it that way’ isn’t a good defence.

Like I say, I view the arrangement as a good thing in general but perhaps staying in the U.K. might have been a better idea given the performances in the last 6 months or so and the opportunity to introduce new faces this summer.

Eddie can take in as many matches as he likes from a TV but unless he’s got what the Yanks would call an all-22 he’s at the whim of a director as to what he’ll actually see. I’m fairly certain he’s on record as saying he needs to be live at the match to fully appreciate a player’s performance.

[Digby]

But trench warfare hadn't previously worked when up against artillery and machine guns and then stopped working. It was always a bad idea that they then repeated.

Here we have something that seemingly wasn't a problem but then simply carrying on as was is deemed an issue. I'd get citing Covid and saying perhaps he shouldn't travel, but there's an awful of travel in rugby you could say that about and I'd doubt they'd want to be touching setting standards with a bargepole

And Eddie might miss a few matches live, and granted live is much better, but he'll already have been to a lot of live matches. That he's not staying for say 15 more games for a minor summer series that might well not go ahead..., I'm struggling to care. If he was a lazy blighter who seldom put in a shift that'd be a different thing.

Maybe I'm missing the point, and there's a link between Eddie now being in Japan and England losing on penalties and scrums a good number of weeks ago when he wasn't in Japan. Which suggests something that's being done now is being sucked into the past, which could happen I suppose if there are two event horizons collapsing down around England rugby and into each other, but we'd probably be noticing that more generally than just in regards to Eddie

[Mellsblue]

You’ve made my point re trench warfare. It was effective but then the facts changed and it wasn’t effective, yet still they plowed on.
Your whole argument is that Eddie’s always done it but even though the facts have changed it’s still a good idea to do it just because he’s always done it.
You are Lord Melchett and I claim my 10 yen.

[fivepointer]

The timing that he’s just presided over the worst 6N performance in decades following the snooze fest and an extra time win over France 3rdXV in the autumn. Just because he’s always done it that way doesn’t mean when circumstances change he shouldn’t perhaps change. The proponents of trench warfare argued we had always fought war in that way and that didn’t go very well. The group that said we’ve always flown open cockpit biplanes and the Spitfire is a dud would’ve lost us the Battle of Britain. When the facts on the ground/air change the defence ‘I’ve always done it that way’ isn’t a good defence.

Like I say, I view the arrangement as a good thing in general but perhaps staying in the U.K. might have been a better idea given the performances in the last 6 months or so and the opportunity to introduce new faces this summer.

Eddie can take in as many matches as he likes from a TV but unless he’s got what the Yanks would call an all-22 he’s at the whim of a director as to what he’ll actually see. I’m fairly certain he’s on record as saying he needs to be live at the match to fully appreciate a player’s performance.

There's something in this. We have just endured a 6N to forget and maybe the head coach should be in the UK to consider the options for the summer and beyond. Heading off to Japan hardly smacks of all out commitment, though I accept Jones works as hard and is as diligent as any coach. Perception does matter.
I've read that he hasnt attended a single Premiership team's training session this season. OK, Covid restrictions might make that difficult but I do wonder just what level of contact Jones has with the Premiership coaches.

[Digby]

It's not a norm for head coaches to attend training sessions at the clubs. It potentially has some positives, but it could also easily cause some tension, and there's normally some background friction between clubs and country, both ways

I think unless you have a system that feeds much more into the national side any coach is going to struggle in this situation managing the relationship between the two

[Raggs]

We've changed system though. If you think what we were doing in the 6N was the same as what we did in the autumn, then I'm not sure what you're watching. When you change a system, you expect it to not work so well.

In truth, I'm not sure if it was really the change in the attacking system that even caused the problem, since I don't recall too many of our penalties being forced due to lack of support or other expected errors from that game plan. They mostly seemed to come from being dumbly aggressive in defence, or just dumb.

[Mellsblue]

Who said we hadn’t changed system? I’ve played enough rugby to understand what we saw in the autumn wasn’t the same as what we saw vs Italy and France. I’ve also played enough rugby to know that praising someone for (very) belatedly realising they’d got it wrong is damning with faint praise. The point still stands that we’ve had two tournaments of dross, whether results, entertainment or a combo of both.
Tbh, if you’re dogmatically defending Eddie after what we’ve seen this season you’re a hypocrite if you criticise Oakboy.

[Raggs]

Who said we hadn’t changed system? I’ve played enough rugby to understand what we saw in the autumn wasn’t the same as what we saw vs Italy and France. I’ve also played enough rugby to know that praising someone for (very) belatedly realising they’d got it wrong is damning with faint praise. The point still stands that we’ve had two tournaments of dross, whether results, entertainment or a combo of both.
Tbh, if you’re dogmatically defending Eddie after what we’ve seen this season you’re a hypocrite if you criticise Oakboy.

But we won in the Autumn, so I can't really say we got it wrong. It wasn't much fun to watch, but it worked.

You’ve made my point re trench warfare. It was effective but then the facts changed and it wasn’t effective, yet still they plowed on.
Your whole argument is that Eddie’s always done it but even though the facts have changed it’s still a good idea to do it just because he’s always done it.
You are Lord Melchett and I claim my 10 yen.

This does sound a bit like saying that we kept trying to do the same thing across multiple tournaments, but maybe I've mis-interpreted.

I'm happy to criticise Eddie for not getting a handle on the discipline, I just don't think that's reason enough to fire him. Especially when there's no obvious replacements on the horizon.

[Mellsblue]

We won in the short term, in a pointless tournament. Didn’t do us much good in the longer term - happy to mea culpa if we’re sitting pretty in 12 months
Pivac was on the chopping block in Nov... it’s a fickle business....

You mis-interpreted.

[Digby]

Pivac does show how the press cover things. Wins a couple of games with red cards in them, one against England trying to set a record for conceding penalties, beats Italy and loses to France in a close game, and somehow the verdict is he's turned things around

I'd expect better analysis from an 11 year old

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

This is it for me. In no way do I think I'm a rugby analyst genius or anything, but Wales seem to have chanced upon some decent form without really doing anything particularly new or interesting tactically, just playing solid fundamentals and minimising mistakes (nothing wrong with that!). Whereas England had a 6N where we were undoubtedly stupid (discipline), and had many tactical teething problems. But at the very least what we were trying to do was both pretty radical, and exciting. I'm suprised there aren't more sports journalists who have recognised this.
Also, without coming across as an arrogant Englishman, surely we have to recognise that the measuring stick is different for England? Therefore we need to push a bit harder to be genuine competitors to NZ and SA, which might take a while longer to bed in with players.

[Digby]

I tend to think you measure yourself with consistency against the 4 RC teams, if you're winning there at 75% home and away and not dodging NZ in the process things are going well. The 6N is nice but a bit of a tribal distortion. Of course for a lot of fans it's very much about that tribal 'fun' in the 6N, which isn't wrong it's just a different way of looking at it.

Wales if anything tightened up some of their previous play, some of which was looking quite interesting. And I suspect England will have to do the same, building those rapid ball in hand phases alongside more the kicking game we associate with them, because the physicality of producing consistent ball in hand games with all that off the ball work demands peaking for say 8-10 games a season, and my guess is that just can't be done alongside a club season. Though there is we're yet to show we can even enforce our rapid ball play as a standard, as team get used to it we might struggle for entry points absent of dominating setpeice (which hasn't been our recent standard) and/or getting Manu back

[Oakboy]

6 years into a regime, it seems now that it is no longer about results, then? Percentage win levels have been overtaken by the quest for a new style and everything is rosy? And it is me who has no rational viewpoint? Give me strength!

[Digby]

I liked Eddie coming in, I then whilst conceding selection was much better than under Burt wasn't thrilled with our tactics for the most part particularly on attack but had to concede results were not merely good they're pretty much the best any England coach has ever had, and you're pushing water uphill to go after a successful win record. Now we've had a very brief blip, which granted might continue, during which we actually made some big strides in how we attack.

I'm not going to say Eddie couldn't go, but I've no interest in pissing money up the wall for someone comparable at best when our win record remains excellent and we've just made strides in the attack shape. And just because I don't like something doesn't always mean the right solution is to have a refresh. If I was confident there was someone out there that could have us playing great rugby and hitting 90% and above win rates then fine, make a change, no idea who that is and frankly it looks unlikely with the players anyway

[Scrumhead]

Very well summarised. Totally agree.

[Oakboy]

So, after 6 years, the highest paid coach in world rugby, despite having, arguably, the most talented and most experienced squad of players in the NH, still cannot give us good rugby AND results. It should not be either/or surely if he is as good as claimed?

[Digby]

nobody avoids setbacks. where there's perhaps an issue is on the selection front. Eddie is trying to bring in new players ahead of the WC, and so far that simply isn't paying dividends, but from the outside there seems little wrong with having looked at Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Lawrence, Malins, Robson. I wasn't thrilled we looked at Furbank, but he's the only real mystery of recent times, maybe Martin too but Martin is very new to all this