England vs USA on Patriotism Day!

[Puja]

6 backrowers.
None of them called "Dombrandt"
None of them even a #8


How very Eddie

Well, Chick's a number 8, but your point is still valid. No Marchant either, which is the bigger travesty - I wonder if the theory that the Quins players will come into play against Canada when they've had a week's unhungover training under their belts holds any water, or if Eddie's just Eddieing.

A few quibbles with that lineup, but overall it's pretty exciting. I don't get the point of Ludlow, but clearly Eddie's seen something he likes. I'm not convinced in Lawrence/Slade as a pairing, although it'd be nice to see it actually given the ball for once. I can understand Kelly not being in the XXIII on merit, but I wish we were getting a chance to get a cap into him to stop the inevitable poaching attempt (although good news on tying down Heyes). Second rows are an utter non-event to me - nothing exciting or relevant to the future of English rugby there whatsoever. Mostly I'm disappointed that Wells isn't getting a cap - I don't think he's the future either, but he has worked so hard and it'd be a shame if he didn't get any recognition out of this international period.

On the plus side, Randall/Smith seems a match made in heaven. Randall's pretty much the closest thing to Care's style that you can get without picking Care, so it'll hopefully give Smith the platform to shine.

Wonder if we'll go more experimental next week and give the squad a chance to play or if Uncle Eddie wants his "first" team out both weeks and people will have to earn a start? The USA are a team that we need to be a little cautious and respectful of as they're not a terrible side, but we could play anyone against Canada and still get a comfortable win.

Puja

[Digby]

Not sure Smith is so reliant on Care as an attacking force. What he doesn't want from Care is bad ball he's happy for Care to attend to that, and we don't know if Randall will just shovel ball on or act to stop ball just being shovelled on, and on attack what Smith has with Quins is genuine hard running options outside him, normally 6, 7 or 12, and that's a system England might well not replicate in quite the same way, partly not offering the same relative threat and partly not wanting to use energy in quite that way

[Puja]

Not sure Smith is so reliant on Care as an attacking force. What he doesn't want from Care is bad ball he's happy for Care to attend to that, and we don't know if Randall will just shovel ball on or act to stop ball just being shovelled on, and on attack what Smith has with Quins is genuine hard running options outside him, normally 6, 7 or 12, and that's a system England might well not replicate in quite the same way, partly not offering the same relative threat and partly not wanting to use energy in quite that way

Good point - Care's value to Smith is in letting him pick and choose when to enter the game and obeying when he demands the ball (as well as providing a personal threat to keep the defence honest). Mind, that describes a lot of how Youngs/Ford works for England, so I don't know he'll find too much different in that respect.

You're also right that the hard running options outside him will be a very different kettle of fish - I'm very interested to see how he adapts to Eddie's game plan (whatever the f*ck that is currently). It's easy in an A-type international against a T2 side to just enforce your own playing style and play fast and loose because you've not got the rest of the first XV around you to set the standards and you know you can get away with it because of the quality of the opposition. I think if Smith is going to have a long-term England future under Eddie, he has to be the guy setting the standards and driving the Eddie gameplan, rather than playing Barbarians and having fun in the sunshine.

Puja

[Banquo]

one winger in the squad, and only two players who can play centre. Bit odd.

[TheNomad]

Agree with much of the above. I’d question every selection from 4 to 8 as well.

Could have learned and developed a lot more

[Scrumhead]

For the most part, I’m happy enough with that lineup. The back row and Slade ahead of Marchant are the main disappointments for me.

I can only assume Ludlow must be tearing it up in training. Don’t get me wrong, I do think he’s a good player, but England captain? If I’d been picking from the same group of players, I don’t think he’d have made my bench. FWIW, I’d have had Hill, Curry and Dombrandt starting with Kenningham on the bench.

Chick does interest me though. He’s a very good all rounder and I’d actually say he and Tom Willis are more similar to a Faletau type of 8, mixing work rate, carrying, lineout and a breakdown presence. I think he could be a surprise hit.

Totally indifferent about the locks, but that’s purely down to who is available. Like Puja, I probably would have gone for Wells over McNally, but not much in it.

[Gloskarlos]

I get what people don't see with Ludlow, but if you listen to any of the Glos interviews, mostly the management they can't speak highly enough of him as a person, inspiration, and as a leader. He trains exactly the same as he plays. Now that's not to say there are other good options at 6/7, I would have put B Curry ahead of him in that side, but he has an impressive nature about him and that must have held some sway with Eddie.

Interestingly (or not) he is only the fifth player to captain on their debut. Nigel Melville the last in 1984

[fivepointer]

Ludlow was going to captain the A side so has plainly impressed while in camp. Its quite an endorsement to be named in this side, given the competition in the back row, let alone be the skipper.

I hate the 6:2 bench split. If a wing or centre goes down early we are going to be a bit stuck.

I like the half backs. I wouldnt have picked Slade but i can see that some experience in the backs might be handy.

[Puja]

Ludlow was going to captain the A side so has plainly impressed while in camp. Its quite an endorsement to be named in this side, given the competition in the back row, let alone be the skipper.

I hate the 6:2 bench split. If a wing or centre goes down early we are going to be a bit stuck.

I like the half backs. I wouldnt have picked Slade but i can see that some experience in the backs might be handy.

I suspect that Eddie is looking at Umaga as a potential 12. I wouldn't be surprised to see him come on there so Eddie can see if he can be the ersatz Farrell. In that case, Slade is the back three cover at 15 with Steward covering a wing.

Puja

[Banquo]

Ludlow was going to captain the A side so has plainly impressed while in camp. Its quite an endorsement to be named in this side, given the competition in the back row, let alone be the skipper.

I hate the 6:2 bench split. If a wing or centre goes down early we are going to be a bit stuck.

I like the half backs. I wouldnt have picked Slade but i can see that some experience in the backs might be handy.

I suspect that Eddie is looking at Umaga as a potential 12. I wouldn't be surprised to see him come on there so Eddie can see if he can be the ersatz Farrell. In that case, Slade is the back three cover at 15 with Steward covering a wing.

Puja

That's a bizarre idea tbh. Its a bizarre squad with a decent to meh starting 15. In the event of a back 3 player getting crocked you have to change 3 positions I'd reckon.

[Puja]

Ludlow was going to captain the A side so has plainly impressed while in camp. Its quite an endorsement to be named in this side, given the competition in the back row, let alone be the skipper.

I hate the 6:2 bench split. If a wing or centre goes down early we are going to be a bit stuck.

I like the half backs. I wouldnt have picked Slade but i can see that some experience in the backs might be handy.

I suspect that Eddie is looking at Umaga as a potential 12. I wouldn't be surprised to see him come on there so Eddie can see if he can be the ersatz Farrell. In that case, Slade is the back three cover at 15 with Steward covering a wing.

Puja

That's a bizarre idea tbh. Its a bizarre squad with a decent to meh starting 15. In the event of a back 3 player getting crocked you have to change 3 positions I'd reckon.

Played there in the age groups and was a 12 when at Leicester. I've heard more bizarre ideas.

Puja

[Banquo]

I suspect that Eddie is looking at Umaga as a potential 12. I wouldn't be surprised to see him come on there so Eddie can see if he can be the ersatz Farrell. In that case, Slade is the back three cover at 15 with Steward covering a wing.

Puja

That's a bizarre idea tbh. Its a bizarre squad with a decent to meh starting 15. In the event of a back 3 player getting crocked you have to change 3 positions I'd reckon.

Played there in the age groups and was a 12 when at Leicester. I've heard more bizarre ideas.

Puja

fair, but he doesnt shout 12 in grown up rugby to me and even so, its an odd set of back permutations.

Did he play 12 for the senior Tigers team, and has he ever started there for Wasps?

[Raggs]

That's a bizarre idea tbh. Its a bizarre squad with a decent to meh starting 15. In the event of a back 3 player getting crocked you have to change 3 positions I'd reckon.

Played there in the age groups and was a 12 when at Leicester. I've heard more bizarre ideas.

Puja

fair, but he doesnt shout 12 in grown up rugby to me and even so, its an odd set of back permutations.

Did he play 12 for the senior Tigers team, and has he ever started there for Wasps?

Everyone assumed he's PI side would come through and he'd bulk up. He didn't, and hasn't. I'd not have him at 12. He can probably just about do a job there. Same with fullback.

[Banquo]

Played there in the age groups and was a 12 when at Leicester. I've heard more bizarre ideas.

Puja

fair, but he doesnt shout 12 in grown up rugby to me and even so, its an odd set of back permutations.

Did he play 12 for the senior Tigers team, and has he ever started there for Wasps?

Everyone assumed he's PI side would come through and he'd bulk up. He didn't, and hasn't. I'd not have him at 12. He can probably just about do a job there. Same with fullback.

Cheers. Its an odd call to maybe have to put him there in an international, albeit not top tier.

[jngf]

I get what people don't see with Ludlow, but if you listen to any of the Glos interviews, mostly the management they can't speak highly enough of him as a person, inspiration, and as a leader. He trains exactly the same as he plays. Now that's not to say there are other good options at 6/7, I would have put B Curry ahead of him in that side, but he has an impressive nature about him and that must have held some sway with Eddie.

Interestingly (or not) he is only the fifth player to captain on their debut. Nigel Melville the last in 1984

It will be good to see B Curry get a run out at some point in match ( It would also be very interesting if Underhill is moved across to the 6 berth to accommodate this as that seems a worthwhile experiment).

[Puja]

That's a bizarre idea tbh. Its a bizarre squad with a decent to meh starting 15. In the event of a back 3 player getting crocked you have to change 3 positions I'd reckon.

Played there in the age groups and was a 12 when at Leicester. I've heard more bizarre ideas.

Puja

fair, but he doesnt shout 12 in grown up rugby to me and even so, its an odd set of back permutations.

Did he play 12 for the senior Tigers team, and has he ever started there for Wasps?

No, he never played for Leicester's firsts as he was poached quite early and I don't believe he's even played a minute there for Wasps. Don't think it's a great idea or one which I'd have, but I reckon it's what Uncle Eddie will try. As Raggs said, at youth grade, everyone assumed his dad or his uncle's genes would come through, but nothing yet...

Puja

[Raggs]

I don't believe he was poached as such. There were a few that left tigers academy to other academies at that time under a cloud of rumour. Never found out what. Assume it wasn't that big.

[Puja]

I don't believe he was poached as such. There were a few that left tigers academy to other academies at that time under a cloud of rumour. Never found out what. Assume it wasn't that big.

I say poached with tongue in cheek - our academy was trash up until recently and our use of it even worse, so I don't really blame any young talent for having jumped ship (plus, I believe I remember saying something along the lines of "Good riddance" at the time as I saw him as a surname that wouldn't amount to much, like Freddie Tuilagi Jnr. Top judge of a player, me ).

Thank gods we've stepped up our game of late.

Puja

[FKAS]

I don't believe he was poached as such. There were a few that left tigers academy to other academies at that time under a cloud of rumour. Never found out what. Assume it wasn't that big.

I say poached with tongue in cheek - our academy was trash up until recently and our use of it even worse, so I don't really blame any young talent for having jumped ship (plus, I believe I remember saying something along the lines of "Good riddance" at the time as I saw him as a surname that wouldn't amount to much, like Freddie Tuilagi Jnr. Top judge of a player, me ).

Thank gods we've stepped up our game of late.

Puja

No the rumour I heard at the time was definitely poached. Umaga had played in some preseason games and and A league and wanted to be considered part of the first team set up. Tigers would only offer a development contract whilst Wasps were happy to give him first team wages. I doubt that means significant wages but development would be up to £40k sort of range where as first team maybe double that. At the time Tigers were apparently less fussed because they had Hardwick coming through as a similar time maybe a year or younger, which obviously worked out well.

I also think he could still become a very good 12 but he'd need to show some more commitment than he's shown at 10. I think Atkinson will surpass him at 10 sooner rather than later. As a 12 he could be quite special.

[Danno]

Starting to see where Oakboy is coming from to be honest. Weird, weird team, and his press comments just seem to denigrate players rather than building them up to do well.

[Mikey Brown]

What has he said?

I’d guess the team is weird in large parts due to the cancelled A game, but yeah it’s a bit strange balance wise.

[Puja]

What has he said?

I’d guess the team is weird in large parts due to the cancelled A game, but yeah it’s a bit strange balance wise.

"We've got to understand he's only a very young 10 so he's still got a long way to go in his game," Jones explained.

"Being a Test 10 is always about making good decisions for the team… at 22 he is going to make some bad decisions, as we've seen with most Test 10s.

"At some time playing for England, the whole country is looking at you and every part of your game is examined… we aren't sure how Marcus will cope with that.

"His development as a player will be how quickly his game adapts from club rugby to Test rugby."

I will note that those "quotes" have a lot of ellipses in them, so significant amounts of context are missing. Plus it's from the BBC, who are not above stirring the pot with selective quoting. But it isn't, "We're excited, we want to see him do well," which is what you'd normally expect with a young 10 on their debut.

Puja

[Danno]

It's a fine line. I guess my management style is more positive than his:

“He is a bright young talent,” said Jones. “I happen to be a social friend of his godfather who I met in Hong Kong, who told me about him. He definitely had some talent but there are plenty of boys with talent. He has managed to work hard, come up with a game that is in its infancy at the moment but it’s exciting for him to get the opportunity on Sunday. He is ready now."

Damning with faint get off of your arse and do what unky Eddy sezz praise

[Danno]

. But it isn't, "We're excited, we want to see him do well," which is what you'd normally expect with a young 10 on their debut.

Puja

This is my entire point

[Puja]

Mind, Itoje did all right after being described as a Vauxhall Viva, so it's possible he knows what he's doing vis-a-vis motivation and getting the best out of players. We'll see how this one goes.

Puja