Lions squad named

[Banquo]

Interesting that both Zammit who was positioned incorrectly and Daly who did the stupid kick both escaped critism but Harris who had to actually try and tackle Kolbe one on one in space got it in the neck

TBH, I think the winger best suited to defend Kolbe isn't even on the tour - May's got the pace, experience, agility, and workrate to do as good a job as anyone possibly could shutting down the Jonah Lomu Rugby cheat code that is Kolbe, but instead Gatland went for the shiny new thing in Rees-Zammit (and Daly for some unknown reason).

Puja

From my Irish bias - Keith Earls look very good in the 6N, and at 33 is still the fastest man in the Ireland team. Still the arch try poacher who danced around Jonny May with ease in the last England game. Earls is on the smallish side but he is a powerful defender, frequently knocking bigger men backwards. Quite an underrated and non-flashy wing who could probably do as good a job as any in policing Kolbe while himself a potent finisher.
Still - agree that Jonny May is a great wing with the X factor who scores tries that no-one else can. Sad he never got a Lions tour.

Not sure how you can get 90+ caps , go on a Lions tour and be underrated? iirc he was a bit iffy on that tour (2009) and suspect Gatland remembers that, however unfair that might be. He did have a bit of a dip in form last year iirc, but agree he was good in the 6N.

[Spiffy]

TBH, I think the winger best suited to defend Kolbe isn't even on the tour - May's got the pace, experience, agility, and workrate to do as good a job as anyone possibly could shutting down the Jonah Lomu Rugby cheat code that is Kolbe, but instead Gatland went for the shiny new thing in Rees-Zammit (and Daly for some unknown reason).

Puja

From my Irish bias - Keith Earls look very good in the 6N, and at 33 is still the fastest man in the Ireland team. Still the arch try poacher who danced around Jonny May with ease in the last England game. Earls is on the smallish side but he is a powerful defender, frequently knocking bigger men backwards. Quite an underrated and non-flashy wing who could probably do as good a job as any in policing Kolbe while himself a potent finisher.
Still - agree that Jonny May is a great wing with the X factor who scores tries that no-one else can. Sad he never got a Lions tour.

Not sure how you can get 90+ caps , go on a Lions tour and be underrated? iirc he was a bit iffy on that tour (2009) and suspect Gatland remembers that, however unfair that might be. He did have a bit of a dip in form last year iirc, but agree he was good in the 6N.

Earls was about 20 years old on that tour and very inexperienced. He made about four handling errors in his first game and that was toodle pip to his Lions career for evermore. He was also used at centre and FB, and it turned out he was more a natural wing. In retrospect, probably better if he had not been selected that young, since then he would probably have made subsequent tours. On 6N form he probably was in contention for the current tour, but perhaps sizeist and ageist considerations swung it (and, to be fair, the form of the other wings.)

[morepork]

Whatever happens both sides will be playing for penalties at the scrum and close to the opposition tryline. Farrell the magnificent will be driving that dull shitty bus (and will still manage to keep the Bokke in it with some sparkling footwork and telegraphed "moves"), so good luck wingers. You are there to catch and pass it back to a kicker.

[Sandydragon]

TBH, I think the winger best suited to defend Kolbe isn't even on the tour - May's got the pace, experience, agility, and workrate to do as good a job as anyone possibly could shutting down the Jonah Lomu Rugby cheat code that is Kolbe, but instead Gatland went for the shiny new thing in Rees-Zammit (and Daly for some unknown reason).

Puja

Not sure why Daly was included (other than as an all rounder) but LRZ was one of the finds of the six nations and played well enough to put his hand up for selection. May was one of the better England players over the campaign so is perhaps a bit unfortunate and would have beeen a better choice than Daly.

While it is very much a judgement call and it is perfectly valid to be in favour of LRZ for the reason you submit of his form in the 6N, I'd say the crux of my argument is around the word "find". While he's got phenomenal ability and speed, he's massively inexperienced and hasn't got the nuts and bolts that will come with him being asked, "Yeah, you've got talent and wheels. What else have you got?" over the span of his career. More pertinently, he was never going to be picked by Gatland for the tests barring a massive run of injuries - he's just too callow and it'd be a massive, massive risk.

This is compared to May who has been one of the best wingers in the world for the past 3-4 seasons and has changed out of sight from when he was a callow 20 year old who had nothing but pace and brio. I'd have absolutely no problem with dropping May in on the wing against any team in the world - I'd be excited by LRZ, but also worried about the risk.

II mean, I'd've picked both May and LRZ and left out Daly myself, but the dichotomy that was presented in the press and publicity was that there was only room for one speedster and it was either May or Rees-Zammit and instead of a potential starter, we've got a tourist who's the one option we know won't play in the tests. But your mileage may vary, as with all rugby opinions.

Puja

All good points. But how many players do you pick on reputation? If England has finished first or second May would have been in that squad, in my opinion.

[Puja]

Not sure why Daly was included (other than as an all rounder) but LRZ was one of the finds of the six nations and played well enough to put his hand up for selection. May was one of the better England players over the campaign so is perhaps a bit unfortunate and would have beeen a better choice than Daly.

While it is very much a judgement call and it is perfectly valid to be in favour of LRZ for the reason you submit of his form in the 6N, I'd say the crux of my argument is around the word "find". While he's got phenomenal ability and speed, he's massively inexperienced and hasn't got the nuts and bolts that will come with him being asked, "Yeah, you've got talent and wheels. What else have you got?" over the span of his career. More pertinently, he was never going to be picked by Gatland for the tests barring a massive run of injuries - he's just too callow and it'd be a massive, massive risk.

This is compared to May who has been one of the best wingers in the world for the past 3-4 seasons and has changed out of sight from when he was a callow 20 year old who had nothing but pace and brio. I'd have absolutely no problem with dropping May in on the wing against any team in the world - I'd be excited by LRZ, but also worried about the risk.

II mean, I'd've picked both May and LRZ and left out Daly myself, but the dichotomy that was presented in the press and publicity was that there was only room for one speedster and it was either May or Rees-Zammit and instead of a potential starter, we've got a tourist who's the one option we know won't play in the tests. But your mileage may vary, as with all rugby opinions.

Puja

All good points. But how many players do you pick on reputation? If England has finished first or second May would have been in that squad, in my opinion.

Wrong question to ask when the Lions squad has Mako, George, Itoje, Farrell, and Daly in it!

Puja

[Banquo]

From my Irish bias - Keith Earls look very good in the 6N, and at 33 is still the fastest man in the Ireland team. Still the arch try poacher who danced around Jonny May with ease in the last England game. Earls is on the smallish side but he is a powerful defender, frequently knocking bigger men backwards. Quite an underrated and non-flashy wing who could probably do as good a job as any in policing Kolbe while himself a potent finisher.
Still - agree that Jonny May is a great wing with the X factor who scores tries that no-one else can. Sad he never got a Lions tour.

Not sure how you can get 90+ caps , go on a Lions tour and be underrated? iirc he was a bit iffy on that tour (2009) and suspect Gatland remembers that, however unfair that might be. He did have a bit of a dip in form last year iirc, but agree he was good in the 6N.

Earls was about 20 years old on that tour and very inexperienced. He made about four handling errors in his first game and that was toodle pip to his Lions career for evermore. He was also used at centre and FB, and it turned out he was more a natural wing. In retrospect, probably better if he had not been selected that young, since then he would probably have made subsequent tours. On 6N form he probably was in contention for the current tour, but perhaps sizeist and ageist considerations swung it (and, to be fair, the form of the other wings.)

I did say it might have been unfair.....but as he hasn't been a Lion since, and Gatlands been in charge since.....might be summat in it. Shame for him.

[Sandydragon]

While it is very much a judgement call and it is perfectly valid to be in favour of LRZ for the reason you submit of his form in the 6N, I'd say the crux of my argument is around the word "find". While he's got phenomenal ability and speed, he's massively inexperienced and hasn't got the nuts and bolts that will come with him being asked, "Yeah, you've got talent and wheels. What else have you got?" over the span of his career. More pertinently, he was never going to be picked by Gatland for the tests barring a massive run of injuries - he's just too callow and it'd be a massive, massive risk.

This is compared to May who has been one of the best wingers in the world for the past 3-4 seasons and has changed out of sight from when he was a callow 20 year old who had nothing but pace and brio. I'd have absolutely no problem with dropping May in on the wing against any team in the world - I'd be excited by LRZ, but also worried about the risk.

II mean, I'd've picked both May and LRZ and left out Daly myself, but the dichotomy that was presented in the press and publicity was that there was only room for one speedster and it was either May or Rees-Zammit and instead of a potential starter, we've got a tourist who's the one option we know won't play in the tests. But your mileage may vary, as with all rugby opinions.

Puja

All good points. But how many players do you pick on reputation? If England has finished first or second May would have been in that squad, in my opinion.

Wrong question to ask when the Lions squad has Mako, George, Itoje, Farrell, and Daly in it!

Puja

Exactly my point. There will always be a couple of players there on past reputation. Arguably George and Itoje have justified their selection, Mako too as a n impact sub. Farrell shouldn't be there.

[Puja]

All good points. But how many players do you pick on reputation? If England has finished first or second May would have been in that squad, in my opinion.

Wrong question to ask when the Lions squad has Mako, George, Itoje, Farrell, and Daly in it!

Puja

Exactly my point. There will always be a couple of players there on past reputation. Arguably George and Itoje have justified their selection, Mako too as a n impact sub. Farrell shouldn't be there.

Ah right, I misread you - no tone in text. I thought you were saying, "How many players" like "How often does it happen that a player is picked on reputation?!" rather than literally "What number of players is acceptable to pick on reputation?"

Fair point, carry on.

Puja

[Gloskarlos]

[Puja]

Interesting - bench is a 5:3.

Puja

[paddy no 11]

Looks weak!

[Gloskarlos]

As expected for the starting XV I think. 5:3 is noteworthy....

[Banquo]

not far from SA 'a' , unsurprisingly

[Mikey Brown]

Is Kwagga Smith an 8 now? Were they just inspired to find their own Curry/Armitage at 8 with Vermeulen out?

The stage is truly set to catch them off guard with a 7:1 bench now.

[Numbers]

Is Kwagga Smith an 8 now? Were they just inspired to find their own Curry/Armitage at 8 with Vermeulen out?

The stage is truly set to catch them off guard with a 7:1 bench now.

All the talk was that it would be Wiese at 8, maybe he's got the covid.

[Banquo]

Good source- though I'm very dubious- has....if so, not a big fan of it at all.

1- Wyn Jones
2- LCD
3- Furlong
4- Itoje
5- Alun Wyn
6- Lawes
7- Curry
8- Conan
9- Price
10- Biggar
11- Duhan VDM
12- Henshaw
13- Daly
14- Watson
15- Hogg

[Gloskarlos]

No - definitely not a fan of that.......

I don't think the squad is announced until 10 am on Thursday, so this seems early to be getting some inside knowledge?

[Spiffy]

I know that The Bok game is based around powerful, no frills, forward domination, but that is one hell of a S.A. back line from 9-15 and with Pollard back at 10, could be a potent attacking force.

Kwagga Smith must be the smallest international No.8 seen for years. Apparently 5'11" and just under 15 st.

[Banquo]

No - definitely not a fan of that.......

I don't think the squad is announced until 10 am on Thursday, so this seems early to be getting some inside knowledge?

Thats what i think, but its a well connected journo

[morepork]

The Meat Eaters will blow Lawes off the ruck if he really is being played at 6. Daly will have his hands full with that centre pairing too.

[Mellsblue]

Assuming this is correct.... Kolbe v DVDM (with Daly for support) sticks out. As does the fact that it’s very much a form based selection, with the odd exception.
With no Russell, and accepting Smith hasn’t been in camp long enough to be selected, that’s about as attacking a backline as we could put out. Assuming that points to an expansive game plan, Curry has a long 80 mins ahead of him.

[Puja]

Good source- though I'm very dubious- has....if so, not a big fan of it at all.

1- Wyn Jones
2- LCD
3- Furlong
4- Itoje
5- Alun Wyn
6- Lawes
7- Curry
8- Conan
9- Price
10- Biggar
11- Duhan VDM
12- Henshaw
13- Daly
14- Watson
15- Hogg

I mean... that could be a lot, lot worse? No Murray/Farrell dream team at 9/10 to render the rest of the backs pointless (with no Aki at 12 to finish the job) and, while I'm no fan of Lawes at 6, at least he'd have Curry and Conan to provide the mobility and do all the work for him.

I don't think it's real, mostly because I don't see a world in which Gatland doesn't play Adams, but if you offered me that over what I fear Gatland might potentially unleash, I'd probably take it.

Puja

[Banquo]

Good source- though I'm very dubious- has....if so, not a big fan of it at all.

1- Wyn Jones
2- LCD
3- Furlong
4- Itoje
5- Alun Wyn
6- Lawes
7- Curry
8- Conan
9- Price
10- Biggar
11- Duhan VDM
12- Henshaw
13- Daly
14- Watson
15- Hogg

I mean... that could be a lot, lot worse? No Murray/Farrell dream team at 9/10 to render the rest of the backs pointless (with no Aki at 12 to finish the job) and, while I'm no fan of Lawes at 6, at least he'd have Curry and Conan to provide the mobility and do all the work for him.

I don't think it's real, mostly because I don't see a world in which Gatland doesn't play Adams, but if you offered me that over what I fear Gatland might potentially unleash, I'd probably take it.

Puja

well of course it could be worse, but that's not a high bar. Anyhoo- just stuck it out there and will be fascinated to see how close it ends up being.

(and I agree, Adams absence would be pretty odd).

BTW...what did you 'fear he'd unleash'? He has been a pretty decent Lions coach and selector tbh- may not like the style, but he's not mad.

[Banquo]

The Meat Eaters will blow Lawes off the ruck if he really is being played at 6. Daly will have his hands full with that centre pairing too.

...well yes. Assuming Courtney gets to the ruck in time, and any 13 would have his hands full, let alone one whose defence isn't very good and who doesn't play there very much. Gatland is a bit screwed by having two very ropy 12's and forced to use Henshaw there, but then again, he picked em.

[Banquo]

Assuming this is correct.... Kolbe v DVDM (with Daly for support) sticks out. As does the fact that it’s very much a form based selection, with the odd exception.
With no Russell, and accepting Smith hasn’t been in camp long enough to be selected, that’s about as attacking a backline as we could put out. Assuming that points to an expansive game plan, Curry has a long 80 mins ahead of him.

as I said, its a bit odd- genuinely good source, but an odd selection for me. e.g. for all Murray has been poor and Price ok, Murray was the stand in (and miraculously not permanent) skipper. Beirne actually looks like an authentic 6 whilst giving great lineout, etc etc.

I think as someone commented earlier, its one of the least cut and dried Lions selections - well at least since 97, when Geech chucked a fair few curve balls in.