Anticipated England Pack?

[jngf]

Just to get the ball rolling and appreciating how early in the season it is, I would anticipate pack for Autumn looking something along the lines of:

1 Mako V
2 Cowan-Dickie
3 Sinckler
4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Curry
7 Underhill
8 Dombrandt

Bench front row: Barbeary or George? Marler if available?
Lock cover: Lawes
Back row cover: Ludlum (you all know I have a soft spot for him but in all honesty I think he’s very comfortable slotting in at 6,7 or 8 and whilst I love the pace of Earl and Simmonds I’m not sure they’ll be involved anymore whilst Eddy remains in charge - again because I don’t see him as seeing flanker as an attacking role (in English rugby that is)

[16th man]

Barbeary has borked his leg again hasn't he?

[Tigersman]

December earliest for his return

[fivepointer]

Dont think Launchbury will be available either.

[FKAS]

Launchbury is out until the new year as well if I remember correctly.

I'd also guess at Earl being on the bench to cover the backrow as he was for the 6N. Well unless Eddie decides to go super big and starts Billy with Dombrandt on the bench.

[jngf]

Are there any up and coming locks with a powerful carrying and mauling game to succeed Launchbury?
(Or to be more poetic a Bakkies Botha to partner Itoje’s Matfield ? )

[FKAS]

Are there any up and coming locks with a powerful carrying and mauling game to succeed Launchbury?
(Or to be more poetic a Bakkies Botha to partner Itoje’s Matfield ? )

There in possibly lies the problem. Itoje isn't a lineout leader ala Matfield. Kruis or Lawes have tended to do that for England previously. Itoje is a hybrid do everything type. Launchbury didn't start out as the powerful mailing type either, he used to play more like Itoje and go charging around smashing rucks trying to win turnovers. We've got a few big lads coming through but none that are noted lineout leaders that I know. Henderson missed out on a Scotland cap in the summer and is EQ though he likes to carry and can run a lineout. Not internationally ready yet but could be worth a steal.

[Gloskarlos]

I saw Launch at lunchtime today. He has a pronounced limp. Not ready yet at all.
Ludlam? Quite daft in my opinion. Far better options around.

[Scrumhead]

I’d like to see:

1. Genge
2. Cowan-Dickie
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Hill*
6. Curry
7. Underhill
8. Dombrandt

*He probably doesn’t deserve it. However, we know what Lawes can do and Ewels has been found wanting. I’d like to see Ribbans get a shot, but it would be a risk to put him in against Australia and SA.

I don’t actually think Ludlam is a ‘daft’ suggestion. I see him as a younger version of Mark Wilson from the POV that he can cover across the back row and has always played well when called upon. I’d certainly prefer him to Ludlow and while Earl’s pace gives him a bit of a point of difference, he hasn’t really grasped the chances he’s had with both hands. Willis is unavailable until next year and then Ben Curry doesn’t seem fancied.

I’ll be watching Ted Hill and George Martin with interest. Both seem to be gunning to be the new Lawes covering lock and blindside. If Hill plays more at lock I think he could be a serious contender. Martin will mostly play in the back row, which may or may not be an advantage for him.

[Gloskarlos]

To be clear I wouldn't select Ludlow for England either, although I do prefer him to Ludlam for many reasons. Ludlam has a headless chicken approach, which, whilst showing that it he is full of vim, vigour and endeavour, it is often wasted energy, a lot of effort for not much result. You have mentioned several better options, there are others around too for me. We have Curry to play across the back row if necessary.

[Mikey Brown]

I’d love to see some gametime invested in Dombrandt but I definitely wouldn’t assume it’s going to happen.

Ludlum/Ludlow are in the top 10 backrow options on a good day I suppose, but that’s about it for me.

Would also really like to see Ribbans get a go. Does he call the lineout for NH? How is their lineout in general?

Even Ewels has been better than Hill so far for me, which isn’t saying a lot, though he’s had many more chances. I’m just not convinced by either. I may have simply taken against Hill personally though, as it’s hard not to wonder why someone goes to that much effort to look that way.

I’d assume if Eddie has taken anything from the Lions tour it’s that he was right not to play Daly at 13, and Lawes at 6 is worth another go.

Will LCD take the 2 shirt on a more permanent basis?

[fivepointer]

Depends a lot on form and fitness. Also, does Marler want to play?

First up is Tonga so there is a chance for a bit of experimentation. Maybe Ribbans to get a game, Hill or Martin in the back row with Dombrandt.

Then the more serious stuff and we're going to have to pick our best available players.

Right now I'm not sure who that would be in about half of the positions.

[Digby]

And if Marler wants to play does he even get to pick when he's available. Possibly yes as sides look to be more flexible around mental health, and especially when players will nearly always want to play, but it does establish something of a precedent they mayn't want.

[Scrumhead]

When it comes to Marler, I think the mental health aspect of it is one element and the other is circumstantial. I think he’s generally in a much better place but hasn’t wanted to commit to being in the bubble scenario with England largely because of his family situation. I’m not underplaying the mental health aspect, I just think the practicalities have probably been bigger concerns in recent times.

He’s our best loosehead by some distance IMO and is in he form of his life. If he wants to play, I’d pick him every time.

I agree with Mikey re. Ewels having been better than Hill so far. However, my argument would be that after 20 something caps including a fair few starts, I think we can confidently say Ewels is no more than average. Hill has been poor so far, but has the potential to be better than Ewels which makes it worth giving him a bit more time IMO.

I’m very keen on Ribbans and would play him vs. Tonga, but I’d be hesitant to pitch him straight in against Australia and SA.

[Timbo]

Marler is the best loosehead in the world right now for my money. If he is available he plays.

Ewels can get in the bin. I thought he was pretty pathetic in the two summer tests and would be an utterly pointless selection going forward. I’d persevere with Hill and also like to see Ribbans thrown in to the squad alongside Itoje and Lawes.

[Which Tyler]

Marler is comfortably our best LHP. If we take things match by match, he starts whenever available.
However, we don't know how he's going to feel come RWC23, and whether he'll be available, and we need to plan with that in mind - which means getting game time under Genge's belt, and a few bench appearances into whoever's next in line after that (probably Obano), whilst keeping Mako familiar with the test arena, training and calls.

Balancing those needs is complex, and I'm glad I don't have to make that sort of call - though offer me Eddie's salary, and I'll give it a shot.

For a fan with no way of testing my hypothesis...i"if I were Eddie" I'd stay in touch with Joe every month or so, but not include him in the EPS for this season, let him have a full year away. For matches against slightly weaker opposition. Genge starts with Obano(?) on the bench, for stronger opposition Genge and Mako play.
That goes for the 2022 AIs as well.
If Marler's feeling good, he can come into camp for the 6N, RWC warm-ups and RWC - quite honestly, he could probably miss the 6N as well unless we've changed tactics too much.



As for Ewels, he's not good enough for international rugby, he's just better at it than Hill. If we've still got 2 of our big 4, then I'd ditch both and look past them. If we've only got 1 of our big 4, then Ewels is less likely to let us down, but I'd still take Attwood in a pinch - who really should have had more caps of his own, and surely would in any other era.
I'd bIsiewkee looking to involve Isiekwe, Ribbans, maybe Moon, maybe Martin, maybe even t'other Hill

[Mikey Brown]

I mostly agree in that we need to manage to resources at 1, but I get the sense (as an outsider with absolutely nothing to back it up) that Marler is in a much better place regarding the pressure and anxiety of international rugby since opening up about it. The Covid bubbles, timing with family, and nature of playing in empty stadiums seemed to become much more of a thing for him, and hopefully those aren't ongoing issues for too much longer.

Similar to you I would pick Ewels tomorrow if I had to choose between them, but hope/expect Hill will be a far superior player down the line. All those other options should be vying with Hill for the same spot, but to me Ribbans just looks like the most composed, rounded player at the moment, while offering a bit of the physical edge that might work well alongside Itoje.

[Raggs]

Marler is fantastic, but I'd not be looking to give him any more caps now. Can't rely on him actually being available for the world cup (especially when you consider there'll be months of pre rwc training too). I'd tell him up front that he's not going to be in the squad any more, but he'll be one of the first injury call ups if we need it at the world cup, so keep yourself in great shape and in touch.

I also think Mako is still brilliant too, and Genge is getting better and better. On top of that, we've got a load of decent loosehead up and comers as well.

[Timbo]

I’d just be looking to pick my best available team at any given time. We have a good age profile, plenty of young players pushing through and there are always injuries and 1/2 games a season to rotate. You’re going to look pretty stupid if Marler is fit, available and in top form for Quins but a lesser player is causing the scrum to creak in the test team.

Possibly there is scope to leave a few senior players at home if there is a summer tour next year, although given it’s supposed to be in Australia….

[fivepointer]

Think if Marler makes himself available you pick him.

[Scrumhead]

Marler is fantastic, but I'd not be looking to give him any more caps now. Can't rely on him actually being available for the world cup (especially when you consider there'll be months of pre rwc training too). I'd tell him up front that he's not going to be in the squad any more, but he'll be one of the first injury call ups if we need it at the world cup, so keep yourself in great shape and in touch.

I also think Mako is still brilliant too, and Genge is getting better and better. On top of that, we've got a load of decent loosehead up and comers as well.

Re. Marler, let’s not forget the next RWC is still 2yrs away. I’d like to think the COVID situation will be a lot more under control by then which will likely limit the need for some of the more extreme aspects of the bubbles etc. His youngest kids will be two years older and it’s also in France which feels a lot more accessible in an emergency than Japan would have.

With that in mind, I’d keep him loosely involved (no pun intended) over the next year and then look to ramp that back up as we get close to the RWC. He is a unique case and good enough to get slightly special treatment IMO.

In the meantime, I’m with Which on prioritising Genge and then giving more time to Obano or maybe West (when fit).

[Raggs]

Marler is fantastic, but I'd not be looking to give him any more caps now. Can't rely on him actually being available for the world cup (especially when you consider there'll be months of pre rwc training too). I'd tell him up front that he's not going to be in the squad any more, but he'll be one of the first injury call ups if we need it at the world cup, so keep yourself in great shape and in touch.

I also think Mako is still brilliant too, and Genge is getting better and better. On top of that, we've got a load of decent loosehead up and comers as well.

Re. Marler, let’s not forget the next RWC is still 2yrs away. I’d like to think the COVID situation will be a lot more under control by then which will likely limit the need for some of the more extreme aspects of the bubbles etc. His youngest kids will be two years older and it’s also in France which feels a lot more accessible in an emergency than Japan would have.

With that in mind, I’d keep him loosely involved (no pun intended) over the next year and then look to ramp that back up as we get close to the RWC. He is a unique case and good enough to get slightly special treatment IMO.

In the meantime, I’m with Which on prioritising Genge and then giving more time to Obano or maybe West (when fit).

If the world cup was next year, maybe, but it's 2 years away.

Marler is probably our best loosehead, but I think Mako is damn close, and more suited to certain game styles. Genge needs experience, he's not as good as the other two yet overall, but with more experience he certainly could be. Obano, West, Rodd (is Rodd the Sale one that looks handy?) etc, could all get better for experience too. I know I'm a Wasps supporter, but West gives pretty much every tighthead he comes across big issues, and is very active, he reminds me a lot of Marler.

I just don't see the point in using a spot on Marler in the EPS. I don't think he has as much space to improve as most the others, so give them the experience, and in 2 years, I'd really not be surprised to see that one or more of them have improved beyond him (or equal).

I agree France is close for emergencies, but I don't think it's emergencies that worry him, it's not being able to be with his family almost every day, and that won't be possible whether it's France or Japan. And pre-rwc will quite possibly be in the states etc.