Snap General Election called

[Zhivago]

Starmer has a massive problem in that he is seen as utterly tedious. I think he is very competent but probably is more of a supporting workhorse than the party leader. That might seem harsh but a leader needs to have a little personality.

Corbyn had charisma as leader but then became toxic as his politics became better known. I also think his strong GE showing was largely the result of May’s awful campaign.

You need a Labour leader who can cut through and appeal to normal people. I don’t think Angela Rayner is that person. She has personality but comments like Tory scum demonstrate a certain immaturity. Unless Burnham or Kahn step up (don’t think they will until after the next GE) then I don’t see the aspiring new leader who can move Labour forward.

This is the crux of it. Sir Keir Starmer QC isn't ever going to be able to appeal to normal people, no matter how often he mentions his working class upbringing. Labour needs a political outsider. Someone who has leadership experience in the real world, but not within the Westminster milieu. You might point out that Starmer was only an MP for a couple of years before he became leader, but the fact is his previous employment was as DPP so his office postcode moved from SW1H to SW1A when he became leader, so still Westminster milieu - he doesn't have that outsider feel.

As for Angela Rayner - if you objected to Corbyn (partly) because he was a bit thick, then you aren't doing much better with Angela Rayner.

Burnham perhaps has cleansed himself of that Westminster image a bit since he's been Manchester mayor, so could be a good candidate. But I still think he is too much of an insider to be the best choice. Kahn is probably realistically a poor choice from a pragmatic point of view due to his ethnicity (just an extra hurdle for certain people to be able to relate to him).

That said, Sir Kier Hardy can’t break through to ordinary people but Boris Bullington Johnson can? I’d suggest more about charisma than background


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Well they are targetting different groups. Boris only pulls traditional labour voters due to Brexit in my opinion, although he does indeed have more charisma, and generally takes a more optimistic rhetoric. Labour tend to campaign quite negatively, a lot of what they argue is anti-Tory, but they would be better off focusing more on their own optimistic vision for Britain.

[Sandydragon]

This is the crux of it. Sir Keir Starmer QC isn't ever going to be able to appeal to normal people, no matter how often he mentions his working class upbringing. Labour needs a political outsider. Someone who has leadership experience in the real world, but not within the Westminster milieu. You might point out that Starmer was only an MP for a couple of years before he became leader, but the fact is his previous employment was as DPP so his office postcode moved from SW1H to SW1A when he became leader, so still Westminster milieu - he doesn't have that outsider feel.

As for Angela Rayner - if you objected to Corbyn (partly) because he was a bit thick, then you aren't doing much better with Angela Rayner.

Burnham perhaps has cleansed himself of that Westminster image a bit since he's been Manchester mayor, so could be a good candidate. But I still think he is too much of an insider to be the best choice. Kahn is probably realistically a poor choice from a pragmatic point of view due to his ethnicity (just an extra hurdle for certain people to be able to relate to him).

That said, Sir Kier Hardy can’t break through to ordinary people but Boris Bullington Johnson can? I’d suggest more about charisma than background


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Well they are targetting different groups. Boris only pulls traditional labour voters due to Brexit in my opinion, although he does indeed have more charisma, and generally takes a more optimistic rhetoric. Labour tend to campaign quite negatively, a lot of what they argue is anti-Tory, but they would be better off focusing more on their own optimistic vision for Britain.

Bashing the opposition is always a risk. Boris has always had a wider appeal which isn’t just about Brexit. I think people genuinely find him amusing. Personally that joke wore off over a decade ago.


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[Digby]

Why the fuck would anyone support Labor?

Never even seen them on the ballot paper so probably no one will.

Labour will attract a lot of votes, mine included as things stand.

Shut the fuck up.

Why the fuck would anyone support Labor?

At the moment, because they are the most credible opposition to the incompetent, corrupt, and selfish government that we currently have.

I'm hoping they'll have come up with some reasons for voting by the time the election comes along, rather than just resting on reasons against the other lot.

Puja

On the other hand, they're pretty worthless at the moment.

Congrats on calling some people worthless and swearing at others. If anything this evidences progress on your behalf

[Son of Mathonwy]

On the other hand, they're pretty worthless at the moment.

Better that than actively harmful.

[Son of Mathonwy]

On the other hand, they're pretty worthless at the moment.

Better that than actively harmful.

Yeah, but worthless ain't gonna cut it when you're in opposition.

We saw the same thing in NZ, which seems to be the Crosby-Textor beta test political scene, where we had our own Tory scum PM with a carefully manufactured buffoon act stay in power while being actively harmful to the nation.

NZ Labour managed to tip the scales in their favour when they installed a leader that had massive public appeal, and used CT tactics against the government, which was wrapped up in a message of relentless positivity.

There's also something to be said in often speaking publicly in easy-to-digest soundbites. "Oven Ready Brexit." "Get Brexit Done." Like, you knew exactly what they were trying to sell. Compare that to "It's time for a real change," which J-Corbz evidently thought was a real vote winner. The fuck does it even mean? It's bland, vague and it sounds so generic.

There are a lot of other factors, mind, like FPP being the shittiest shitty shit voting system that was ever shat out by a bunch of shits that know fuck about shit, or the complete lack of party discipline in 2019 - I hope Mumbly Joe or Sir Kevin or whatever he calls him self has managed to keep a lid on that sort of thing.

Yes, that's a good tactic. Unfortunately none of the candidates had it.

[Puja]

Yeah, but worthless ain't gonna cut it when you're in opposition.

We saw the same thing in NZ, which seems to be the Crosby-Textor beta test political scene, where we had our own Tory scum PM with a carefully manufactured buffoon act stay in power while being actively harmful to the nation.

NZ Labour managed to tip the scales in their favour when they installed a leader that had massive public appeal, and used CT tactics against the government, which was wrapped up in a message of relentless positivity.

There's also something to be said in often speaking publicly in easy-to-digest soundbites. "Oven Ready Brexit." "Get Brexit Done." Like, you knew exactly what they were trying to sell. Compare that to "It's time for a real change," which J-Corbz evidently thought was a real vote winner. The fuck does it even mean? It's bland, vague and it sounds so generic.

There are a lot of other factors, mind, like FPP being the shittiest shitty shit voting system that was ever shat out by a bunch of shits that know fuck about shit, or the complete lack of party discipline in 2019 - I hope Mumbly Joe or Sir Kevin or whatever he calls him self has managed to keep a lid on that sort of thing.

Yes, that's a good tactic. Unfortunately none of the candidates had it.

Ardern isn't someone that popped in out of nowhere. She succeeded Andrew Little, who was able to unite the caucus (credit should go to his first deputy, Annette King, who had connections across the various factions, and helped unite them under his banner), and when she retired, he promoted Ardern as his deputy. Early on, she was pegged as a potential future Party Leader, and it's just that it came a lot sooner than anyone had expected.

Surely there's someone similar who's young and has been pegged for big things down the line?

The closest they have is probably Nadia Whittome and there's no way that the party machinery at large will let someone with that many principles near the leadership. They learned the lesson from Blair that the *only* way to power was to occupy the centre ground as hard as you can.

Puja

[Stom]

Yes, that's a good tactic. Unfortunately none of the candidates had it.

Ardern isn't someone that popped in out of nowhere. She succeeded Andrew Little, who was able to unite the caucus (credit should go to his first deputy, Annette King, who had connections across the various factions, and helped unite them under his banner), and when she retired, he promoted Ardern as his deputy. Early on, she was pegged as a potential future Party Leader, and it's just that it came a lot sooner than anyone had expected.

Surely there's someone similar who's young and has been pegged for big things down the line?

The closest they have is probably Nadia Whittome and there's no way that the party machinery at large will let someone with that many principles near the leadership. They learned the lesson from Blair that the *only* way to power was to occupy the centre ground as hard as you can.

Puja

That's the problem. Starmer DOES have principles, but it's the team behind him that's crap. Someone else I think is good is Clive Lewis - what's happened to him?

But it's the system behind it that's broken. The UK needs a new party to come along and brief against the civil service, basically. The amount of waste and corruption is huge and someone could come along and win votes simply by being "not political elite".

Sure, they'd need funding from somewhere, but I think you'd be surprised by how little they'd actually need.

[Sandydragon]

Ardern isn't someone that popped in out of nowhere. She succeeded Andrew Little, who was able to unite the caucus (credit should go to his first deputy, Annette King, who had connections across the various factions, and helped unite them under his banner), and when she retired, he promoted Ardern as his deputy. Early on, she was pegged as a potential future Party Leader, and it's just that it came a lot sooner than anyone had expected.

Surely there's someone similar who's young and has been pegged for big things down the line?

The closest they have is probably Nadia Whittome and there's no way that the party machinery at large will let someone with that many principles near the leadership. They learned the lesson from Blair that the *only* way to power was to occupy the centre ground as hard as you can.

Puja

That's the problem. Starmer DOES have principles, but it's the team behind him that's crap. Someone else I think is good is Clive Lewis - what's happened to him?

But it's the system behind it that's broken. The UK needs a new party to come along and brief against the civil service, basically. The amount of waste and corruption is huge and someone could come along and win votes simply by being "not political elite".

Sure, they'd need funding from somewhere, but I think you'd be surprised by how little they'd actually need.

Many good Labour politicians abandoned ship during the Corbyn era.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The closest they have is probably Nadia Whittome and there's no way that the party machinery at large will let someone with that many principles near the leadership. They learned the lesson from Blair that the *only* way to power was to occupy the centre ground as hard as you can.

Puja

That's the problem. Starmer DOES have principles, but it's the team behind him that's crap. Someone else I think is good is Clive Lewis - what's happened to him?

But it's the system behind it that's broken. The UK needs a new party to come along and brief against the civil service, basically. The amount of waste and corruption is huge and someone could come along and win votes simply by being "not political elite".

Sure, they'd need funding from somewhere, but I think you'd be surprised by how little they'd actually need.

Many good Labour politicians abandoned ship during the Corbyn era.

Yep, and I'm sure Chuka and the rest have some regrers about self-destructing their careers.

[Sandydragon]

That's the problem. Starmer DOES have principles, but it's the team behind him that's crap. Someone else I think is good is Clive Lewis - what's happened to him?

But it's the system behind it that's broken. The UK needs a new party to come along and brief against the civil service, basically. The amount of waste and corruption is huge and someone could come along and win votes simply by being "not political elite".

Sure, they'd need funding from somewhere, but I think you'd be surprised by how little they'd actually need.

Many good Labour politicians abandoned ship during the Corbyn era.

Yep, and I'm sure Chuka and the rest have some regrers about self-destructing their careers.

Chucka wasn’t one of the ones I was thinking of but you could include him and the others who moved to other parties.


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[Digby]

The closest they have is probably Nadia Whittome and there's no way that the party machinery at large will let someone with that many principles near the leadership. They learned the lesson from Blair that the *only* way to power was to occupy the centre ground as hard as you can.

Puja

The pro-remain individual who spent the referendum criticising the EU? Doesn't scream an astute leader of campaigns. Also she's so far proved something of a quitter, albeit she's obviously very young.

[Puja]

The closest they have is probably Nadia Whittome and there's no way that the party machinery at large will let someone with that many principles near the leadership. They learned the lesson from Blair that the *only* way to power was to occupy the centre ground as hard as you can.

Puja

The pro-remain individual who spent the referendum criticising the EU? Doesn't scream an astute leader of campaigns. Also she's so far proved something of a quitter, albeit she's obviously very young.

Go on, I'll bite - tell me how she's "something of a quitter".

Puja

[Digby]

The closest they have is probably Nadia Whittome and there's no way that the party machinery at large will let someone with that many principles near the leadership. They learned the lesson from Blair that the *only* way to power was to occupy the centre ground as hard as you can.

Puja

The pro-remain individual who spent the referendum criticising the EU? Doesn't scream an astute leader of campaigns. Also she's so far proved something of a quitter, albeit she's obviously very young.

Go on, I'll bite - tell me how she's "something of a quitter".

Puja

She starts projects with I think genuine interest and then rather lets them drift. Which I know from a family member who works with her, and actually is very fond of her. Works with is a bit of a stretch as she's at the local uni, is also rather on the left, and is one of the student volunteers, that person doesn't have much issue with the assignment of tasks which just get abandoned

Perhaps with experience she'll better learn what to get involved in from the off, and too build a more trusted staff who don't bring you what in essence is click-bait

But her campaigning to remain by getting stuck into the EU is something I sort of remember with fondness for the stupidity of it

[Digby]

The late move on the amendment from the government on caps for social care isn't welcome, it seems poorly (unfairly?) thought out, and asking MPs to vote on it today prior to publishing distributional impact assessments by the Treasury underhand. So about par for the course

[Which Tyler]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... 75443?123=

Nothing says "This is entirely above board" quite like putting a bin bag over the CCTV camera

Mirror.jpg

[Puja]

W O W

Puja

[Puja]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... 75443?123=

Nothing says "This is entirely above board" quite like putting a bin bag over the CCTV camera
Mirror.jpg

Just found out that it's not a binbag, but a curtain viewed at a weird angle.

Capture.PNG

Boris is corrupt in many ways, but this isn't one of them.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... 75443?123=

Nothing says "This is entirely above board" quite like putting a bin bag over the CCTV camera
Mirror.jpg

Just found out that it's not a binbag, but a curtain viewed at a weird angle.

Capture.PNG

Boris is corrupt in many ways, but this isn't one of them.

Puja

Quite honestly, thank F for that!

[Which Tyler]

[Zhivago]

Having an issue with needing to show ID to vote is such a weird thing. No other country would have a problem with that.

[Which Tyler]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... s-25699183

Not #10, but... Totally not a party.
Totally socially distanced.
Everyone wearing masks, of course.

[Puja]

FB_IMG_1639565677176.jpg

[Son of Mathonwy]

Having an issue with needing to show ID to vote is such a weird thing. No other country would have a problem with that.

It's not a problem if everyone already has national ID cards*.


* Not that I'm arguing for that.

[Puja]

Having an issue with needing to show ID to vote is such a weird thing. No other country would have a problem with that.

It's not a problem if everyone already has national ID cards*.


* Not that I'm arguing for that.

I have to say, the one thing that put me in favour of national ID cards is reading about the Estonian system where you can vote by internet. That would be a massive increase in the ability to vote and it's just not doable without a pre-existing ID card system. Mind, I wouldn't trust anyone in this country to deliver a solid government-commissioned IT project of that size anyway, given previous experience.

It's not just the UK though - lots of countries don't need ID to vote, as a sizeable chunk of people don't have photo ID and they tend to be the ones in most need of representation.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

It's not just the UK though - lots of countries don't need ID to vote, as a sizeable chunk of people don't have photo ID and they tend to be the ones in most need of representation.

Which is why it's a bad thing here and in the US - which is also why the right in both countries, really want it.