fivepointer wrote:I'd say they have moved past the rear foot of their ruck and are offside. They might be bound on, but they are clearly crabbing sideways and have moved beyond the rear foot. Further i'd say that If you're not driving in a straight line at a ruck you should be liable to penalty as you would be if joining from the side.
There's something in this. The first example in the video looks okay. The second just doesn't. He is not "rucking". I would say similar about some players in the caterpillar too though.
Two questions on the thread on Twitter:
1. What's to stop you getting four players and wrapping the whole way round?
2. Where could you clear out the crabbing player from? Is he making the ruck wider and making himself a legitimate target?
Yeah if you’re considered part of the ruck in that position then I suppose you’re a legitimate target for a Jasper Wiese or some other maniac to do a ‘clear out’ on you, which could lead to any amount of chaos.
Maybe this will be a good excuse (if the trend continues) to reassess the whole idea of being ‘bound’ in the ruck that allows caterpillars and now the crab.
The principle should be are you contesting the ball? If not, then you cant join a ruck, either to protect it with the caterpillar or defend with the crab.
Along with this principle make a genuine attempt to speed up the SH delivery. When ref says use it, you have to use it sharpish.
Oakboy wrote:What is the current law interpretation about the SH touching the ball with his hand? Is he allowed to do that and the ball not be considered 'out'?
I think he's allowed to stabilise the ball, but not to move it with his hands.
I haven't seen it, so what are people's opinions on Itoje vs McGinty? Bath fanboard are saying that it looks identical to Williams on Gopperth, and getting themselves upset over inconsistency. I'd like to know how much bias they're displaying without having to watch a match that really doesn't sound appealing, for that one incident.
Oakboy wrote:What is the current law interpretation about the SH touching the ball with his hand? Is he allowed to do that and the ball not be considered 'out'?
I think he's allowed to stabilise the ball, but not to move it with his hands.
I haven't seen it, so what are people's opinions on Itoje vs McGinty? Bath fanboard are saying that it looks identical to Williams on Gopperth, and getting themselves upset over inconsistency. I'd like to know how much bias they're displaying without having to watch a match that really doesn't sound appealing, for that one incident.
It was certainly reckless with contact direct to the head. If we are being consistent, it was definitely a card. However its Itoje and Saracens so the laws don't apply
McGuigan is a fool for reacting the way he did, but it's reasonably satisfying to see a head patter getting chucked around like a rag doll.
On the caterpiller side crab thing, if that is legal for a defensive team, what's to stop an attacking side doing the same if they're a couple of metres out from the line, and just shifting the ball onto the line? Needs a rapid clarification for the refs to get it nipped in the bud.
16th man wrote:McGuigan is a fool for reacting the way he did, but it's tm reasonably satisfying to see a head patter getting chucked around like a rag doll.
Tompkins was following the Maitland example of being a real twat wrt constantly being in the oppo face with head patting/goading/whooping etc. It is just another reason to dislike the culture at that club.
Unfortunately Mcguigan is also prone to the same antics on occasion so can't complain when it's done to him. Really wish the refs would clamp down on this sort of thing though ala RL
Seems easy enough to resolve to me: ban all acts that are described using an animal beginning with the letter ‘c’. You could take it further and ban all acts described using an animal but I like a good jackal. Ok, confession time, I just want a ban of the phrase ‘test match animal’.
Oakboy wrote:What is the current law interpretation about the SH touching the ball with his hand? Is he allowed to do that and the ball not be considered 'out'?
I think he's allowed to stabilise the ball, but not to move it with his hands.
I haven't seen it, so what are people's opinions on Itoje vs McGinty? Bath fanboard are saying that it looks identical to Williams on Gopperth, and getting themselves upset over inconsistency. I'd like to know how much bias they're displaying without having to watch a match that really doesn't sound appealing, for that one incident.
I am in a minority who think Williams was a bit hard done by, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt, but I think it was a very similar situation. Itoje sprints in from a distance and hits the ruck at speed. His arm goes over the top of McGinty's head and his chest compresses the top of his head, just like with Gopperth. The main difference is that there's no arm wrapping around the chest/neck, which I think it what got Williams, but the action that actually caused the knockout is identical. Either way, not a good or useful action by Itoje and he should know better than to take that risk.
Apart from that, he was immense in that game. Was always the player first to the loose ball and clearing up. Hadn't really noticed it until I did the minute-by-minute, but now I'm looking for it, he is *always* in the right place at the right time.
Oakboy wrote:What is the current law interpretation about the SH touching the ball with his hand? Is he allowed to do that and the ball not be considered 'out'?
I think he's allowed to stabilise the ball, but not to move it with his hands.
I haven't seen it, so what are people's opinions on Itoje vs McGinty? Bath fanboard are saying that it looks identical to Williams on Gopperth, and getting themselves upset over inconsistency. I'd like to know how much bias they're displaying without having to watch a match that really doesn't sound appealing, for that one incident.
I am in a minority who think Williams was a bit hard done by, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt, but I think it was a very similar situation. Itoje sprints in from a distance and hits the ruck at speed. His arm goes over the top of McGinty's head and his chest compresses the top of his head, just like with Gopperth. The main difference is that there's no arm wrapping around the chest/neck, which I think it what got Williams, but the action that actually caused the knockout is identical. Either way, not a good or useful action by Itoje and he should know better than to take that risk.
Apart from that, he was immense in that game. Was always the player first to the loose ball and clearing up. Hadn't really noticed it until I did the minute-by-minute, but now I'm looking for it, he is *always* in the right place at the right time.
Puja
If we're being brutally honest Williams was reckless and this led to him knocking someone out and hence the red card. Had Gopperth not been knocked out cold then he may well have got away with it.
Itoje, similarly reckless but probably not quite as dangerous (as Puja mentioned no arm on neck) gets away with it because McGinty isn't unconscious.
Oakboy wrote:What is the current law interpretation about the SH touching the ball with his hand? Is he allowed to do that and the ball not be considered 'out'?
I think he's allowed to stabilise the ball, but not to move it with his hands.
I haven't seen it, so what are people's opinions on Itoje vs McGinty? Bath fanboard are saying that it looks identical to Williams on Gopperth, and getting themselves upset over inconsistency. I'd like to know how much bias they're displaying without having to watch a match that really doesn't sound appealing, for that one incident.
I am in a minority who think Williams was a bit hard done by, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt, but I think it was a very similar situation. Itoje sprints in from a distance and hits the ruck at speed. His arm goes over the top of McGinty's head and his chest compresses the top of his head, just like with Gopperth. The main difference is that there's no arm wrapping around the chest/neck, which I think it what got Williams, but the action that actually caused the knockout is identical. Either way, not a good or useful action by Itoje and he should know better than to take that risk.
Apart from that, he was immense in that game. Was always the player first to the loose ball and clearing up. Hadn't really noticed it until I did the minute-by-minute, but now I'm looking for it, he is *always* in the right place at the right time.
Puja
quite, and has been since his debut, give or take. Phenomenal player.
Which Tyler wrote:
I think he's allowed to stabilise the ball, but not to move it with his hands.
I haven't seen it, so what are people's opinions on Itoje vs McGinty? Bath fanboard are saying that it looks identical to Williams on Gopperth, and getting themselves upset over inconsistency. I'd like to know how much bias they're displaying without having to watch a match that really doesn't sound appealing, for that one incident.
I am in a minority who think Williams was a bit hard done by, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt, but I think it was a very similar situation. Itoje sprints in from a distance and hits the ruck at speed. His arm goes over the top of McGinty's head and his chest compresses the top of his head, just like with Gopperth. The main difference is that there's no arm wrapping around the chest/neck, which I think it what got Williams, but the action that actually caused the knockout is identical. Either way, not a good or useful action by Itoje and he should know better than to take that risk.
Apart from that, he was immense in that game. Was always the player first to the loose ball and clearing up. Hadn't really noticed it until I did the minute-by-minute, but now I'm looking for it, he is *always* in the right place at the right time.
Puja
If we're being brutally honest Williams was reckless and this led to him knocking someone out and hence the red card. Had Gopperth not been knocked out cold then he may well have got away with it.
Itoje, similarly reckless but probably not quite as dangerous (as Puja mentioned no arm on neck) gets away with it because McGinty isn't unconscious.
I'd think you could find that sort of clearout many times in many games, its just a 'timing thing' as to whether it gets highlighted. They are downright dangerous and should not be allowed to happen- see endless comments on scatter rucking. Players are regularly being carded for head to heads (say) in a tackle situation, when its a split second error/bad technique in running around upright in defence...yet this clearing out is a conscious decision.
Puja wrote:
I am in a minority who think Williams was a bit hard done by, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt, but I think it was a very similar situation. Itoje sprints in from a distance and hits the ruck at speed. His arm goes over the top of McGinty's head and his chest compresses the top of his head, just like with Gopperth. The main difference is that there's no arm wrapping around the chest/neck, which I think it what got Williams, but the action that actually caused the knockout is identical. Either way, not a good or useful action by Itoje and he should know better than to take that risk.
Apart from that, he was immense in that game. Was always the player first to the loose ball and clearing up. Hadn't really noticed it until I did the minute-by-minute, but now I'm looking for it, he is *always* in the right place at the right time.
Puja
If we're being brutally honest Williams was reckless and this led to him knocking someone out and hence the red card. Had Gopperth not been knocked out cold then he may well have got away with it.
Itoje, similarly reckless but probably not quite as dangerous (as Puja mentioned no arm on neck) gets away with it because McGinty isn't unconscious.
I'd think you could find that sort of clearout many times in many games, its just a 'timing thing' as to whether it gets highlighted. They are downright dangerous and should not be allowed to happen- see endless comments on scatter rucking. Players are regularly being carded for head to heads (say) in a tackle situation, when its a split second error/bad technique in running around upright in defence...yet this clearing out is a conscious decision.
Mmm, I'd say this and the Williams one were particularly egregious, because they were static rucks which the player took a large run up to sprint into. Many games see many players flying in, but the speed was unusual here. I'd actually say there's an argument that Itoje's was worse because MacGinty wasn't even involved with a jackal and the ball wasn't being contested, so it was just a free shot at a pinned 10.
Just seen the McGuigan/Tompkins thing. I was expecting worse from Tomkins to kick that off, but Mcguigan has always been a hot head.
Quirke's reaction is pretty entertaining. Sees McGuigan acting a twat but has to wait for a Sarries player to notice, then just kind of hangs off Isiekwe as he charges in.
FKAS wrote:
If we're being brutally honest Williams was reckless and this led to him knocking someone out and hence the red card. Had Gopperth not been knocked out cold then he may well have got away with it.
Itoje, similarly reckless but probably not quite as dangerous (as Puja mentioned no arm on neck) gets away with it because McGinty isn't unconscious.
I'd think you could find that sort of clearout many times in many games, its just a 'timing thing' as to whether it gets highlighted. They are downright dangerous and should not be allowed to happen- see endless comments on scatter rucking. Players are regularly being carded for head to heads (say) in a tackle situation, when its a split second error/bad technique in running around upright in defence...yet this clearing out is a conscious decision.
Mmm, I'd say this and the Williams one were particularly egregious, because they were static rucks which the player took a large run up to sprint into. Many games see many players flying in, but the speed was unusual here. I'd actually say there's an argument that Itoje's was worse because MacGinty wasn't even involved with a jackal and the ball wasn't being contested, so it was just a free shot at a pinned 10.
Puja
Its only degrees of egregiousness then .... because its a dynamic ruck and not so noticeable (timing point- their speed looks relative high cos everyone else is static) doesn't make it acceptable, none of it is. I'm not interested in who was more wrong of Williams or Itoje tbh; these scatterrucking practices should be stopped. Tricky, cos everyone does it.
Three weeks for Mcguigan. If I threw someone around like that in the street I'd be anticipating community service and a suspended jail sentence. Ridiculous.
Danno wrote:Three weeks for Mcguigan. If I threw someone around like that in the street I'd be anticipating community service and a suspended jail sentence. Ridiculous.
agreed- apparently 'not reckless' and 'has a clean record'. Pfft
.... because its a dynamic ruck and not so noticeable (timing point- their speed looks relative high cos everyone else is static) doesn't make it acceptable, none of it is. I'm not interested in who was more wrong of Williams or Itoje tbh; these scatterrucking practices should be stopped. Tricky, cos everyone does it.