jngf wrote:I can see a 6 Ludlum 7 Curry 8 Dombrandt trio doing a good job. I do have my reservations that that I’d like the 7 role to have more attacking emphasis and Curry’s strengths lie more on the defensive side imo. Dombrandt has a great game in wider attack but I expect he’ll have to focus on the close quarters hard yards carrying allowing less bandwidth for much of this wider attack work (hence my argument that openside needs to focus more on this).
Just for the hell of it, I'm going to try again.
At which point in the game, does the guy wearing the 7 shirt, have to do more attack minded stuff, than the guy wearing the 6 shirt? And why isn't generating quick ruck ball, attacking emphasis?
Puja wrote:I still think we're damning Ludlam with faint praise here. Any rational observer would acknowledge that he's not in the same class as TCurry, but not many are. He's one of the best back row in the Prem and has never let England down in any of his previous caps.
Puja
The trouble is, the discussion stared (again) because someone specifically did rate Ludlam as better than Curry. Largely based on not watching either of them play club rugby.
Dombrandt would be wasted in that role. All his best impacts come when he’s able to pick good lines and hit soft shoulders. He can make hard yards, but is no more than average as a heavy carrier. I wouldn’t say he’d be any more likely to break the gainline than Curry or Ludlam TBH.
Yep, this is the problem with perception based on shape/size.
Dombrandt and Simmonds both play more like the caricatures of the other one, if that makes sense. Dombrandt is a big old boy but if you’re not actually about wanting to hit spaces and make linebreaks then he’s maybe not the best option? I thought his lineout ability might set him apart but that seems to be less of a focus for England (understandable while they’re undecided about which way to go at 8) particularly with Lawes (or similar?) at 6.
Simmonds is absurdly good at making tight metres that he doesn’t deserve to, especially at the tryline, and it doesn’t really fit his status as a flyer. Though he does spend a lot of time in the wide channels too. Barbeary the all action ex-12 is still the most suited to just bashing it up (despite being able to do far more) if that’s the game we/Jones want to play. I do love the idea of Dombrandt running off his shoulder in attack but there’s a whole bunch of areas that would need to be balanced out in other ways.
Ludlum? Sure, yeah he’s good enough on the flank but I’m not sure if his mad-dog style is just fun to watch or it’s actually contributing a considerable amount more than other options. Curry’s energy and enthusiasm is utterly ridiculous too, but he doesn’t have floppy hair or bounce around like a Labrador. He does give away a lot of pens though in his eagerness, which I feel he often gets off too lightly with as a senior player now. I think we’d see the same thing in Ludlum at 8 as Curry, incredible passion and desire to do the job but it just not being the best use of resources.
Puja wrote:I still think we're damning Ludlam with faint praise here. Any rational observer would acknowledge that he's not in the same class as TCurry, but not many are. He's one of the best back row in the Prem and has never let England down in any of his previous caps.
Puja
Puja I’m afraid you’re simply incorrect on this (his outing at no.8 v France in 2020 springs to mind for starters). I can see his qualities but in all honesty I think you’re a bit star struck on the lad - he’s simply not nor imo ever will reach the class of Richard Hill, Winterbottom or Back
Puja wrote:I still think we're damning Ludlam with faint praise here. Any rational observer would acknowledge that he's not in the same class as TCurry, but not many are. He's one of the best back row in the Prem and has never let England down in any of his previous caps.
Puja
Puja I’m afraid you’re simply incorrect on this (his outing at no.8 v France in 2020 springs to mind for starters). I can see his qualities but in all honesty I think you’re a bit star struck on the lad - he’s simply not nor imo ever will reach the class of Richard Hill, Winterbottom or Back
For clarity, I was actually referring to Ludlam when I said "never let England down" (which he hasn't in his 10 games, mostly against lower level opposition, but still) and have edited the OP to make that clear.
Not going to touch your assessment of Curry. I think it speaks for itself.
Puja wrote:I still think we're damning Ludlam with faint praise here. Any rational observer would acknowledge that he's not in the same class as TCurry, but not many are. He's one of the best back row in the Prem and has never let England down in any of his previous caps.
Puja
Puja I’m afraid you’re simply incorrect on this (his outing at no.8 v France in 2020 springs to mind for starters). I can see his qualities but in all honesty I think you’re a bit star struck on the lad - he’s simply not nor imo ever will reach the class of Richard Hill, Winterbottom or Back
For clarity, I was actually referring to Ludlam when I said "never let England down" (which he hasn't in his 10 games, mostly against lower level opposition, but still) and have edited the OP to make that clear.
Not going to touch your assessment of Curry. I think it speaks for itself.
Puja wrote:I still think we're damning Ludlam with faint praise here. Any rational observer would acknowledge that he's not in the same class as TCurry, but not many are. He's one of the best back row in the Prem and has never let England down in any of his previous caps.
Puja
Puja I’m afraid you’re simply incorrect on this (his outing at no.8 v France in 2020 springs to mind for starters). I can see his qualities but in all honesty I think you’re a bit star struck on the lad - he’s simply not nor imo ever will reach the class of Richard Hill, Winterbottom or Back
For clarity, I was actually referring to Ludlam when I said "never let England down" (which he hasn't in his 10 games, mostly against lower level opposition, but still) and have edited the OP to make that clear.
Not going to touch your assessment of Curry. I think it speaks for itself.
Puja
Apologies Puja, I misread whom the never let England down bit was referring to.
Marchant tested positive on Friday, and with England players spending weekend at home fingers crossed he’ll only miss 2 days of training. Needs to test negative on Tuesday and Wednesday and then he can get out of isolation to train with the team on Wednesday.
What are the covid protocols in camp? It is a bit surprising that a player contracts the virus over a week into the squad gathering. Do the players go home between sessions or must Marchant have caught the bug from someone else in camp? Might there be another 5 or 6 announced shortly?
p/d wrote:Are we going to be happy finishing 3rd, behind Ireland and France?
Lose the first match and we'll end up 5th again. On the basis of needing to beat both Ireland and France to be in with a chance at the RWC, at this stage in the cycle and with the standard of our squad, I regard anything other than a GS as failure.
Mikey Brown wrote:A failure to what end? Booting Jones?
Pointless at this stage but in terms of RFU expectations relative to his employment status I simply suggest that is a reasonable assessment. 20 years on from our one success, have we ever had a better chance? If there are not three genuine top international options for every position, tried and tested, it can only be one person's fault. Jones, after losing in the final last time, must have real ambitions to win the RWC next time out with a better squad than in 2019. Would he not agree that anything but a GS was failure?
Mikey Brown wrote:A failure to what end? Booting Jones?
Pointless at this stage but in terms of RFU expectations relative to his employment status I simply suggest that is a reasonable assessment. 20 years on from our one success, have we ever had a better chance? If there are not three genuine top international options for every position, tried and tested, it can only be one person's fault. Jones, after losing in the final last time, must have real ambitions to win the RWC next time out with a better squad than in 2019. Would he not agree that anything but a GS was failure?
It would be nice to be at that point but I don’t think we are. Jones looks well behind schedule in trying to establish a bit of depth in some keys positions (beyond Vunipolas, Farrell, Youngs, Tuilagi etc.) and we appear to be doing some of that now.
I don’t disagree that’s largely down to Jones but I don’t understand what it means for a single loss in this tournament to be deemed a failure, even though we might still make huge strides forward as a squad.
p/d wrote:Are we going to be happy finishing 3rd, behind Ireland and France?
Lose the first match and we'll end up 5th again. On the basis of needing to beat both Ireland and France to be in with a chance at the RWC, at this stage in the cycle and with the standard of our squad, I regard anything other than a GS as failure.
Thats a high bar. I dont see us winning a GS. 3rd may be where we'll end up.
Lose on Saturday, which i think is eminently possible, and with demanding fixtures against Ireland and France, anything above 3rd is going to be very difficult.
