I reckon dropping Barbeary is one part him actually not being ready for internationals yet and 2 parts Jones wanting to be able to drop him and tell him that he's not good enough yet, to try and get a reaction out of him and burst his bubble.
Puja
Why do you think Barbeary is not ready? He seems to be outplaying most of his peers at league level regularly, and there are not many other criteria to go on. He is big, powerful, quick, smart, good hands etc. and has been a game changer for Wasps. What more do you want to see? Do you think Ludlam is a better back rower?
Jones may not like the media talking him up, but if so why penalize Barbeary for that? They have been talking up Farrell for years with no adverse effects on his selection.
I look forward to Jones flip flopping between complaining about how much the media have hyped him up and angrily saying how he hasn’t noticed what the media say because he doesn’t pay attention to them.
I imagine Ludlam is viewed as crucial 7 cover and a lineout option. Simmonds is taking the one non-jumping spot already, and he hasn’t really had a proper look at him yet, he’s only been in form for 4/5 years now.
I reckon dropping Barbeary is one part him actually not being ready for internationals yet and 2 parts Jones wanting to be able to drop him and tell him that he's not good enough yet, to try and get a reaction out of him and burst his bubble.
Puja
Why do you think Barbeary is not ready? He seems to be outplaying most of his peers at league level regularly, and there are not many other criteria to go on. He is big, powerful, quick, smart, good hands etc. and has been a game changer for Wasps. What more do you want to see? Do you think Ludlam is a better back rower?
Jones may not like the media talking him up, but if so why penalize Barbeary for that? They have been talking up Farrell for years with no adverse effects on his selection.
I look forward to Jones flip flopping between complaining about how much the media have hyped him up and angrily saying how he hasn’t noticed what the media say because he doesn’t pay attention to them.
I imagine Ludlam is viewed as crucial 7 cover and a lineout option. Simmonds is taking the one non-jumping spot already, and he hasn’t really had a proper look at him yet, he’s only been in form for 4/5 years now.
Out of interest can Simmonds jump in the lineout (he’s only 1 inch shorter than Underhill and Curry after all )? Appreciating none are exactly built like the Harlem Globetrotters
Last edited by jngf on Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Why does this 'conversation' with jngf keep happening? I don't see what any of the participants get out of it. There's no discussion, just restatement of the same points over and over.
Mr Mwenda wrote:Why does this 'conversation' with jngf keep happening? I don't see what any of the participants get out of it. There's no discussion, just restatement of the same points over and over.
I reckon dropping Barbeary is one part him actually not being ready for internationals yet and 2 parts Jones wanting to be able to drop him and tell him that he's not good enough yet, to try and get a reaction out of him and burst his bubble.
Puja
Why do you think Barbeary is not ready? He seems to be outplaying most of his peers at league level regularly, and there are not many other criteria to go on. He is big, powerful, quick, smart, good hands etc. and has been a game changer for Wasps. What more do you want to see? Do you think Ludlam is a better back rower?
Jones may not like the media talking him up, but if so why penalize Barbeary for that? They have been talking up Farrell for years with no adverse effects on his selection.
He's not providing a full 80 minute performance yet - he has bursts of 20 minutes where he's excellent, but for the rest of it struggles to impose himself on the game. Plus, his recent eye-catching bursts have all come when TWillis has gone off and he's been allowed to play 8 and be the primary carrier - he might be international quality if we let him do that, but we've already got Simmonds and Dombrandt as pure 8s and he's definitely not international quality as a 6. Right now, Ludlam *is* a much better flanker than him.
The difference between the media talking Farrell up and Barbeary is that Farrell is old enough and experienced enough not to be particularly affected by it, whereas Barbeary hasn't yet played 30 games for Wasps. I trust Uncle Eddie to be looking to get the best out of him longer term and motivate him through saying, "You're not at the level that you ought to be - go away and work harder because I know you can do better."
16. Genge
17. George
18. Stuart
19. Isiekwe
20. Simmonds
21. Randall
22. Ford
23. Daly
I think Genge probably starts and can see him going with Isiekwe or Chessum at 6 to keep the frontline lineout option in the back row available. Daly possibly gets in on the left wing to add some experience. Also, especially if it turns out to be as swampy as forecast, I reckon the 6-2 split comes back in - Chessum/Isiekwe as the lock option and two of Dombrandt/Ludlam/Simmonds, with Malins dropping into the 23 shirt. Can't see Ford making it into the 23 unless he starts, and if it's going to be blowing a hooley I can actually see Eddie doubling down on Smith's attacking game and keeping it in hand rather than putting it into the air. In the circumstances I quite like that team though, and think it might surprise a few.
Stom wrote:I don’t think it’s that bad. Sure, the lock situation is bad, but outside of that were mainly missing Farrell and Tuilagi (and Underhill).
I’d say that’s a good thing. We need to look at midfield alternatives and we’ll be a better team without the iceman.
Agreed. I just hope that Smith is not ordered to kick everything just to concentrate on opposition mistakes. We could come off second best with that plan.
16. Genge
17. George
18. Stuart
19. Isiekwe
20. Simmonds
21. Randall
22. Ford
23. Daly
I think Genge probably starts and can see him going with Isiekwe or Chessum at 6 to keep the frontline lineout option in the back row available. Daly possibly gets in on the left wing to add some experience. Also, especially if it turns out to be as swampy as forecast, I reckon the 6-2 split comes back in - Chessum/Isiekwe as the lock option and two of Dombrandt/Ludlam/Simmonds, with Malins dropping into the 23 shirt. Can't see Ford making it into the 23 unless he starts, and if it's going to be blowing a hooley I can actually see Eddie doubling down on Smith's attacking game and keeping it in hand rather than putting it into the air. In the circumstances I quite like that team though, and think it might surprise a few.
I think I'd agree with Eddie if he went down that route. Ford's only utility on the bench is if Smith gets injured and, if the weather is dire, we may as well leverage our strength in the forwards with a lock on the flank and a 6:2 bench.
I do hope Marchant is fit to play though. Him and Slade as a 12-13 is something that I was really looking forward to seeing again and it'd be a true test of the partnership to see if they were viable in a rainy day in Scotland.
fivepointer wrote:Captain? Talk of Curry or LCD, but oddly no mention of Itoje.
I heard Curry or Genge mentioned. I think I'd prefer Curry (well, ideally, I'd prefer Itoje, but that doesn't seem to be on the menu) because he's a guaranteed starter in anyone sane's team whereas Genge is fighting it out with Marler for the 1 shirt, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Genge. Eddie loves a "growing up in adversity" story and I think Genge would fit the same horrible bastard niche that Hartley gave him.
fivepointer wrote:Captain? Talk of Curry or LCD, but oddly no mention of Itoje.
I heard Curry or Genge mentioned. I think I'd prefer Curry (well, ideally, I'd prefer Itoje, but that doesn't seem to be on the menu) because he's a guaranteed starter in anyone sane's team whereas Genge is fighting it out with Marler for the 1 shirt, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Genge. Eddie loves a "growing up in adversity" story and I think Genge would fit the same horrible bastard niche that Hartley gave him.
Puja
With Lawes possibly back for the next game and Genge likely so start this one with Marler missing a week of training it shouldn't matter too much. Agree that Genge as the captain for the tournament as a whole might not be in our best interests but for the weekend quite possibly. It's going to be a spiky game as I fully expect Scotland to have Ritchie at 6 leading the charge for the aggressive and niggly Scottish side.
fivepointer wrote:Captain? Talk of Curry or LCD, but oddly no mention of Itoje.
I heard Curry or Genge mentioned. I think I'd prefer Curry (well, ideally, I'd prefer Itoje, but that doesn't seem to be on the menu) because he's a guaranteed starter in anyone sane's team whereas Genge is fighting it out with Marler for the 1 shirt, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Genge. Eddie loves a "growing up in adversity" story and I think Genge would fit the same horrible bastard niche that Hartley gave him.
Puja
With Lawes possibly back for the next game and Genge likely so start this one with Marler missing a week of training it shouldn't matter too much. Agree that Genge as the captain for the tournament as a whole might not be in our best interests but for the weekend quite possibly. It's going to be a spiky game as I fully expect Scotland to have Ritchie at 6 leading the charge for the aggressive and niggly Scottish side.
Head injuries are funny things though - Lawes will have been out with this one for 3 weeks by Saturday and there's no guarantee that he'll be fit for Italy. Then, if an interim captain has led England to two victories, would it be sensible to bring Lawes back in over his head (notwithstanding that there might be a 6 who's been involved in consecutive victories and might keep him out of the lineup) based just on him captaining once against South Africa?
fivepointer wrote:Captain? Talk of Curry or LCD, but oddly no mention of Itoje.
I heard Curry or Genge mentioned. I think I'd prefer Curry (well, ideally, I'd prefer Itoje, but that doesn't seem to be on the menu) because he's a guaranteed starter in anyone sane's team whereas Genge is fighting it out with Marler for the 1 shirt, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Genge. Eddie loves a "growing up in adversity" story and I think Genge would fit the same horrible bastard niche that Hartley gave him.
Puja
Ideally you want your captain on the field for 80 mins. Curry more likely than Genge or LCD in that respect
fivepointer wrote:Captain? Talk of Curry or LCD, but oddly no mention of Itoje.
I heard Curry or Genge mentioned. I think I'd prefer Curry (well, ideally, I'd prefer Itoje, but that doesn't seem to be on the menu) because he's a guaranteed starter in anyone sane's team whereas Genge is fighting it out with Marler for the 1 shirt, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Genge. Eddie loves a "growing up in adversity" story and I think Genge would fit the same horrible bastard niche that Hartley gave him.
Puja
Ideally you want your captain on the field for 80 mins. Curry more likely than Genge or LCD in that respect
I'm fine either way. I'm not sure that England have someone who is naturally good at getting in the refs ear though so splitting the captaincy with the ref over the 80 minutes might not be a bad idea. Be that Genge/Curry or Curry/Ludlam or whoever else.
I’m not sure I’m sold on the idea of Curry as captain, but that may just be the one atrocious post-match press conference he did a while back that is stuck in my mind. He’s previously taken over on-field when Lawes has gone off, so I’d assume it’s him.
Last edited by Mikey Brown on Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Puja wrote:
I reckon dropping Barbeary is one part him actually not being ready for internationals yet and 2 parts Jones wanting to be able to drop him and tell him that he's not good enough yet, to try and get a reaction out of him and burst his bubble.
Puja
Any update on which cheap 1990’s hatchback Jones has compared him to?
Amazingly, after all the clamour in the press for Smith to start most of the writers for the Telegraph have chickened out and picked Ford for Saturday.
SDHoneymonster wrote:Amazingly, after all the clamour in the press for Smith to start most of the writers for the Telegraph have chickened out and picked Ford for Saturday.
They are a very conservative lot as a species and only just publically cottoning on to the fact that Farrell may have been a tad overrated....
fivepointer wrote:Captain? Talk of Curry or LCD, but oddly no mention of Itoje.
I heard Curry or Genge mentioned. I think I'd prefer Curry (well, ideally, I'd prefer Itoje, but that doesn't seem to be on the menu) because he's a guaranteed starter in anyone sane's team whereas Genge is fighting it out with Marler for the 1 shirt, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Genge. Eddie loves a "growing up in adversity" story and I think Genge would fit the same horrible bastard niche that Hartley gave him.
Puja
Ideally you want your captain on the field for 80 mins. Curry more likely than Genge or LCD in that respect
Fair point, although I don't know how much that matters nowadays with the distributed leadership thing that Eddie's doing right now. Have Genge be the big speech and motivational captain to get them through the tough bits and then hand over to Curry as the cool head and natural deputy.
Puja wrote:
I do hope Marchant is fit to play though. Him and Slade as a 12-13 is something that I was really looking forward to seeing again and it'd be a true test of the partnership to see if they were viable in a rainy day in Scotland.
Puja
I can only think Marchant has been retained with the idea that if he gets out of isolation by Thursday he’ll be starting. Can’t see why you’d keep in the squad otherwise.
Puja wrote:
I do hope Marchant is fit to play though. Him and Slade as a 12-13 is something that I was really looking forward to seeing again and it'd be a true test of the partnership to see if they were viable in a rainy day in Scotland.
Puja
I can only think Marchant has been retained with the idea that if he gets out of isolation by Thursday he’ll be starting. Can’t see why you’d keep in the squad otherwise.
Yeah, we'll need a winger if Nowell's gonna be playing 13...
