Team vs Scotland

[p/d]

Come on, Banquo, were you shouting at the TV, "Take Smith off, 'cause he's not playing well"?

That's the point about hindsight, not what Ford did or did not do (f-all, frankly, but irrelevant).

With you on this Dors. A bollox of a substitution. All the talk of Smith not playing well and/or was knackered is fuelling credibility to the ‘master of the losing again interviewee’

Smith at 10 opposed to big boot Ford was not the problem that needed fixing

its about the least troubling call that EJ made, and not worth such a knicker twist from Eddies 'fan club'

What, during the game, were more troubling calls Jones made? Telling Ford to excuse Slade of touch finder duties

[Spiffy]

The Smith substitution seems to be fixated on as things turned after he went off but the substitution had no actual impact in the implosion that followed.

That's not the point, IMO. It's about whether Jones's judgement is right or wrong. As regards Ford for Smith he was fundamentally wrong. His credibility in camp has to be rocky, at the very least. The players aren't in some sort of vacuum. They feel the hurt and the incompetence.

It does not matter what they feel. Jones makes it clear he is the boss, and he is a little dictator. I may be wrong, but I really doubt that any player has the balls to say exactly what he thinks to Jones, or is encouraged to do so. That would be suicide. They will all remain schtum and compliant for fear of being booted off the squad, losing their careers and fat fees. It's understandable.

[Banquo]

With you on this Dors. A bollox of a substitution. All the talk of Smith not playing well and/or was knackered is fuelling credibility to the ‘master of the losing again interviewee’

Smith at 10 opposed to big boot Ford was not the problem that needed fixing

its about the least troubling call that EJ made, and not worth such a knicker twist from Eddies 'fan club'

What, during the game, were more troubling calls Jones made? Telling Ford to excuse Slade of touch finder duties

I was referring to his initial back selection, the defensive system, kicking strategy before and during game. Onfield, not making a full sub and putting George on, when Cowan-dickheaded, not yanking Youngs. The Smith-who wasnt very good- sub was minor and even logical at the time. Better to aim for legit gripes when moaning bout EJ.

[p/d]

its about the least troubling call that EJ made, and not worth such a knicker twist from Eddies 'fan club'

What, during the game, were more troubling calls Jones made? Telling Ford to excuse Slade of touch finder duties

I was referring to his initial back selection, the defensive system, kicking strategy before and during game. Onfield, not making a full sub and putting George on, when Cowan-dickheaded, not yanking Youngs. The Smith-who wasnt very good- sub was minor and even logical at the time. Better to aim for legit gripes when moaning bout EJ.

I agree with all the troubling calls Jones made before kick off.
You keep telling us he wasn’t very good, when I see it as he wasn’t at his best. With quick ball being choked by Youngs, a rudderless midfield and wing issues it is Smith who gets yanked. So I think we will have to agree to disagree whether it is a legit gripe.

[Banquo]

What, during the game, were more troubling calls Jones made? Telling Ford to excuse Slade of touch finder duties

I was referring to his initial back selection, the defensive system, kicking strategy before and during game. Onfield, not making a full sub and putting George on, when Cowan-dickheaded, not yanking Youngs. The Smith-who wasnt very good- sub was minor and even logical at the time. Better to aim for legit gripes when moaning bout EJ.

I agree with all the troubling calls Jones made before kick off.
You keep telling us he wasn’t very good, when I see it as he wasn’t at his best. With quick ball being choked by Youngs, a rudderless midfield and wing issues it is Smith who gets yanked. So I think we will have to agree to disagree whether it is a legit gripe.

tomato tomato on not v good v not at best, and in the scenario you describe, Ford was a decent bet to do better. (10 is pretty key to giving erm good midfield rudder, nicht wahr). Smith sub is a red herring - real problems elsewhere.

[Puja]

Also a take on Russell Vs Smith and yes the substitution gets mentioned.

Squidge is always an educational watch. The analysis of Smith's play gave actual reasoning and examples to what I'd felt instinctively from watching it live. Hopefully he's learned a fair bit from the game and will come out of it a better player.

I was pretty sure that Scotland's lineout for the first try wasn't legal and watching it again there made it feel even more wrong, but I've just gone and had a look at the laws and they are playing it absolutely to the letter. There's no requirement for the attacking team to wait until the opposition have matched numbers or wait until the ref and touch judge are ready. All of the restrictions and requirements in the laws about numbers are based around the non-throwing team - all that's required of the throwing team is that the lineout be formed, which is at least two players from each team and then play can continue as long as the ball is thrown in straight and over 5m. Very adroit from Scotland.

Puja

[Danno]

Chucking it from behind the Touch Judge at least feels against the spirit of the laws, if not the letter. Splitting pointless hairs that I no longer have at this point, though.

Also, agreed, I know Squidge is marmite as .... well, marmite, but his analysis is solid, always. Dude watches Chilean women's third team for insight, hard to argue with that level of dedication

[Danno]

[p/d]

I was referring to his initial back selection, the defensive system, kicking strategy before and during game. Onfield, not making a full sub and putting George on, when Cowan-dickheaded, not yanking Youngs. The Smith-who wasnt very good- sub was minor and even logical at the time. Better to aim for legit gripes when moaning bout EJ.

I agree with all the troubling calls Jones made before kick off.
You keep telling us he wasn’t very good, when I see it as he wasn’t at his best. With quick ball being choked by Youngs, a rudderless midfield and wing issues it is Smith who gets yanked. So I think we will have to agree to disagree whether it is a legit gripe.

tomato tomato on not v good v not at best, and in the scenario you describe, Ford was a decent bet to do better. (10 is pretty key to giving erm good midfield rudder, nicht wahr). Smith sub is a red herring - real problems elsewhere.

………. Oh my

[kk67]

Well this has been an entertaining read this morning.

I think I need to watch it back before I can really comment.

That’s not how the internet works. You make a snap decision based on little evidence and then you stick to it without fail.

Fair enough. You’ve got me there. Initial thoughts-

- Itoje hung Isiekwe out to dry
- There was little Marchant could do once Graham was through (with a lethal step/pace and men on both sides) - - Smith wasn’t incredible but given the comments about 9 and the balance outside that doesn’t seem like it should be that shocking really. This is just what Youngs is like, I don’t know why everyone is so shocked to be honest
- Dombrandt having to fight his way in if or a starting shirt is a good thing, though it’s a shame we can’t get him running off Smith and swapped them out at the same moment
- I’m not sure if Simmonds is only there push Dombrandt rather than Jones really finding a good use for him?
- Jones still never seems to get his subs right, agree that was a game for Nowell, what is the point of Randall? Will we have any scrumhalf with more than 3 caps when Youngs breaks his leg a week before the World Cup?
- does Genge ever make the impact that his rep would suggest,
- Ken O’Beefe maybe tried to be strict/pedantic for the good of the game but I did not enjoy his performance and neither team could be accurate disciplined enough to get much continuity out of it
- talking about LCD throwing it or one mistake blowing the game is just fucking lame, and if Scotland had fixed one of their crucial errors or had something else go their way too?
- Rugby as a game is just a confusing mess with too many rules simultaneously being applied, controversial decisions can’t really be avoided unless one team is 10+ points better than the other

After a few months away it's nice to see some wisdom of rugby and the internet still prevails.

[kk67]

The Smith substitution seems to be fixated on as things turned after he went off but the substitution had no actual impact in the implosion that followed.

That's not the point, IMO. It's about whether Jones's judgement is right or wrong. As regards Ford for Smith he was fundamentally wrong. His credibility in camp has to be rocky, at the very least. The players aren't in some sort of vacuum. They feel the hurt and the incompetence.

It does not matter what they feel. Jones makes it clear he is the boss, and he is a little dictator. I may be wrong, but I really doubt that any player has the balls to say exactly what he thinks to Jones, or is encouraged to do so. That would be suicide. They will all remain schtum and compliant for fear of being booted off the squad, losing their careers and fat fees. It's understandable.

Well, Joe Launchbury's back this weekend. We'll see.

[Puja]

That's not the point, IMO. It's about whether Jones's judgement is right or wrong. As regards Ford for Smith he was fundamentally wrong. His credibility in camp has to be rocky, at the very least. The players aren't in some sort of vacuum. They feel the hurt and the incompetence.

It does not matter what they feel. Jones makes it clear he is the boss, and he is a little dictator. I may be wrong, but I really doubt that any player has the balls to say exactly what he thinks to Jones, or is encouraged to do so. That would be suicide. They will all remain schtum and compliant for fear of being booted off the squad, losing their careers and fat fees. It's understandable.

Well, Joe Launchbury's back this weekend. We'll see.

Um... Launchbury was released from the squad yesterday to play for Wasps.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I was referring to his initial back selection, the defensive system, kicking strategy before and during game. Onfield, not making a full sub and putting George on, when Cowan-dickheaded, not yanking Youngs. The Smith-who wasnt very good- sub was minor and even logical at the time. Better to aim for legit gripes when moaning bout EJ.

I agree with all the troubling calls Jones made before kick off.
You keep telling us he wasn’t very good, when I see it as he wasn’t at his best. With quick ball being choked by Youngs, a rudderless midfield and wing issues it is Smith who gets yanked. So I think we will have to agree to disagree whether it is a legit gripe.

tomato tomato on not v good v not at best, and in the scenario you describe, Ford was a decent bet to do better. (10 is pretty key to giving erm good midfield rudder, nicht wahr). Smith sub is a red herring - real problems elsewhere.

Banquo, is your love of Ford on a similar plane to my hatred of Jones? Don't forget, Jones dumped Ford and then recalled him (was more or less forced to by injuries etc.). Somewhere in the process of drop/recall/substitution there is warped judgement at the very least. Once dear Owen is fit again who will Jones then leave out?

In my humble opinion (nowhere close to your knowledgeable one), Jones is NOT developing Smith in the best possible way - arguably his most important management task in the months ahead. That is the sad bit - characterised by yanking him when he did.

You refer to other areas of the team that need sorting. That got me thinking again. Is there one player, apart from Curry possibly, who Jones has introduced (or retained) and kept on a steady path of development all the way to settled, regular, best-possible performances? Even Itoje has dropped back a bit, arguably.

[kk67]

Um... Launchbury was released from the squad yesterday to play for Wasps.

Puja

Feck. Bringer of bad news. You big feck.
Well it's obvious Eddie is a massive cunt. Only a cunt would drop Launch'.

[kk67]

not that I give a toss.

[kk67]

All these tragic morons complaining about the English Fly half. Silly fecks.

[p/d]

not that I give a toss.

Now now KK67, deep down you have a soft spot for us arrogant yet well heeled English folk

[Banquo]

I agree with all the troubling calls Jones made before kick off.
You keep telling us he wasn’t very good, when I see it as he wasn’t at his best. With quick ball being choked by Youngs, a rudderless midfield and wing issues it is Smith who gets yanked. So I think we will have to agree to disagree whether it is a legit gripe.

tomato tomato on not v good v not at best, and in the scenario you describe, Ford was a decent bet to do better. (10 is pretty key to giving erm good midfield rudder, nicht wahr). Smith sub is a red herring - real problems elsewhere.

………. Oh my

well yes

[Banquo]

I agree with all the troubling calls Jones made before kick off.
You keep telling us he wasn’t very good, when I see it as he wasn’t at his best. With quick ball being choked by Youngs, a rudderless midfield and wing issues it is Smith who gets yanked. So I think we will have to agree to disagree whether it is a legit gripe.

tomato tomato on not v good v not at best, and in the scenario you describe, Ford was a decent bet to do better. (10 is pretty key to giving erm good midfield rudder, nicht wahr). Smith sub is a red herring - real problems elsewhere.

Banquo, is your love of Ford on a similar plane to my hatred of Jones? Don't forget, Jones dumped Ford and then recalled him (was more or less forced to by injuries etc.). Somewhere in the process of drop/recall/substitution there is warped judgement at the very least. Once dear Owen is fit again who will Jones then leave out?

In my humble opinion (nowhere close to your knowledgeable one), Jones is NOT developing Smith in the best possible way - arguably his most important management task in the months ahead. That is the sad bit - characterised by yanking him when he did.

You refer to other areas of the team that need sorting. That got me thinking again. Is there one player, apart from Curry possibly, who Jones has introduced (or retained) and kept on a steady path of development all the way to settled, regular, best-possible performances? Even Itoje has dropped back a bit, arguably.

? what 'love of Ford'? Your 'hatred' of Jones and unearthing any scrap of evidence or over reaching to justify is a tad worrying tbh . In a disturbed way, you could describe his yanking of Smith as great for his development, as he emerges unscathed and untouched by the failure of defeat. Of course I wouldn't be so ridiculous as to claim that .
LCD, Sinckler, Genge,Underhill, Steward come to immediate mind.

[kk67]

not that I give a toss.

Now now KK67, deep down you have a soft spot for us arrogant yet well heeled English folk

I have a soft spot for the Big Teddy. The rest of you can feck off.

[Scrumhead]

tomato tomato on not v good v not at best, and in the scenario you describe, Ford was a decent bet to do better. (10 is pretty key to giving erm good midfield rudder, nicht wahr). Smith sub is a red herring - real problems elsewhere.

Banquo, is your love of Ford on a similar plane to my hatred of Jones? Don't forget, Jones dumped Ford and then recalled him (was more or less forced to by injuries etc.). Somewhere in the process of drop/recall/substitution there is warped judgement at the very least. Once dear Owen is fit again who will Jones then leave out?

In my humble opinion (nowhere close to your knowledgeable one), Jones is NOT developing Smith in the best possible way - arguably his most important management task in the months ahead. That is the sad bit - characterised by yanking him when he did.

You refer to other areas of the team that need sorting. That got me thinking again. Is there one player, apart from Curry possibly, who Jones has introduced (or retained) and kept on a steady path of development all the way to settled, regular, best-possible performances? Even Itoje has dropped back a bit, arguably.

? what 'love of Ford'? Your 'hatred' of Jones and unearthing any scrap of evidence or over reaching to justify is a tad worrying tbh . In a disturbed way, you could describe his yanking of Smith as great for his development, as he emerges unscathed and untouched by the failure of defeat. Of course I wouldn't be so ridiculous as to claim that .
LCD, Sinckler, Genge,Underhill, Steward come to immediate mind.

This. I find the intensity of it really weird.

I get categorised as an Eddie fan boy which I’m really not. I just find myself having to defend him against Oakboy’s often irrational hatred.

[Banquo]

Banquo, is your love of Ford on a similar plane to my hatred of Jones? Don't forget, Jones dumped Ford and then recalled him (was more or less forced to by injuries etc.). Somewhere in the process of drop/recall/substitution there is warped judgement at the very least. Once dear Owen is fit again who will Jones then leave out?

In my humble opinion (nowhere close to your knowledgeable one), Jones is NOT developing Smith in the best possible way - arguably his most important management task in the months ahead. That is the sad bit - characterised by yanking him when he did.

You refer to other areas of the team that need sorting. That got me thinking again. Is there one player, apart from Curry possibly, who Jones has introduced (or retained) and kept on a steady path of development all the way to settled, regular, best-possible performances? Even Itoje has dropped back a bit, arguably.

? what 'love of Ford'? Your 'hatred' of Jones and unearthing any scrap of evidence or over reaching to justify is a tad worrying tbh . In a disturbed way, you could describe his yanking of Smith as great for his development, as he emerges unscathed and untouched by the failure of defeat. Of course I wouldn't be so ridiculous as to claim that .
LCD, Sinckler, Genge,Underhill, Steward come to immediate mind.

This. I find the intensity of it really weird.

I get categorised as an Eddie fan boy which I’m really not. I just find myself having to defend him against Oakboy’s often irrational hatred.

I must confess I am now finding myself unable to justify/understand the tinkerman selection (though a fair few injuries) in the backs, and especially how they are deployed. But subbing Smith is a minor talking point, compared to the rest of it all.

[Puja]

As Squidge pointed out in the video shared earlier (which is definitely worth a watch), England only had one piece of ball in hand possession after Smith went off, in which Ford ran an attack which guided us upfield 20m and set up the scrum from which we failed to get a penalty. The rest of that time was all defence and pressure from the Scots, so unless Smith could've changed the game without the ball, his subbing made very little difference to the game.

Puja

[kk67]

not that I give a toss.

Now now KK67, deep down you have a soft spot for us arrogant yet well heeled English folk

I have a soft spot for the Big Teddy. The rest of you can feck off.

I'be always loved Launch'

[Scrumhead]

? what 'love of Ford'? Your 'hatred' of Jones and unearthing any scrap of evidence or over reaching to justify is a tad worrying tbh . In a disturbed way, you could describe his yanking of Smith as great for his development, as he emerges unscathed and untouched by the failure of defeat. Of course I wouldn't be so ridiculous as to claim that .
LCD, Sinckler, Genge,Underhill, Steward come to immediate mind.

This. I find the intensity of it really weird.

I get categorised as an Eddie fan boy which I’m really not. I just find myself having to defend him against Oakboy’s often irrational hatred.

I must confess I am now finding myself unable to justify/understand the tinkerman selection (though a fair few injuries) in the backs, and especially how they are deployed. But subbing Smith is a minor talking point, compared to the rest of it all.

Oh 100%. Me too.

To put it another way, ours is based upon disagreeing with the decision-making and feeling increasingly frustrated by it, not by a burning personal hatred of strange magnitude for someone we don’t know/have never met.