Team vs Scotland

[Banquo]

As Squidge pointed out in the video shared earlier (which is definitely worth a watch), England only had one piece of ball in hand possession after Smith went off, in which Ford ran an attack which guided us upfield 20m and set up the scrum from which we failed to get a penalty. The rest of that time was all defence and pressure from the Scots, so unless Smith could've changed the game without the ball, his subbing made very little difference to the game.

Puja

Burn the witch.

[p/d]

As Squidge pointed out in the video shared earlier (which is definitely worth a watch), England only had one piece of ball in hand possession after Smith went off, in which Ford ran an attack which guided us upfield 20m and set up the scrum from which we failed to get a penalty. The rest of that time was all defence and pressure from the Scots, so unless Smith could've changed the game without the ball, his subbing made very little difference to the game.

Puja

Well he might have let Slade kick long for touch to force Scotland to defend rather than attack our line out. Mind you he could also have just chipped it into touch himself.

[Stom]

As Squidge pointed out in the video shared earlier (which is definitely worth a watch), England only had one piece of ball in hand possession after Smith went off, in which Ford ran an attack which guided us upfield 20m and set up the scrum from which we failed to get a penalty. The rest of that time was all defence and pressure from the Scots, so unless Smith could've changed the game without the ball, his subbing made very little difference to the game.

Puja

I made a similar point to EP about the subs lack of impact being probably because they hardly had the ball to work with and also hardly had any tackles to make, thanks to the way Scotland were controlling how we played by then.

Partly that’s on how good a job Scotland and Russell in particular managed the game, and partly on how terrible we had played to get it to that point, where we could just be squeezed out.

Jones talks a good game, seems to take us to 1 really good performance a cycle and otherwise gives us such utterly under par performances that it feels like he might actually just be Robinson in disguise.

That would explain the backrow selections, too…

[Banquo]

As Squidge pointed out in the video shared earlier (which is definitely worth a watch), England only had one piece of ball in hand possession after Smith went off, in which Ford ran an attack which guided us upfield 20m and set up the scrum from which we failed to get a penalty. The rest of that time was all defence and pressure from the Scots, so unless Smith could've changed the game without the ball, his subbing made very little difference to the game.

Puja

I made a similar point to EP about the subs lack of impact being probably because they hardly had the ball to work with and also hardly had any tackles to make, thanks to the way Scotland were controlling how we played by then.

Partly that’s on how good a job Scotland and Russell in particular managed the game, and partly on how terrible we had played to get it to that point, where we could just be squeezed out.

Jones talks a good game, seems to take us to 1 really good performance a cycle and otherwise gives us such utterly under par performances that it feels like he might actually just be Robinson in disguise.

That would explain the backrow selections, too…

Did we play 'terribly'?

[badback]

I was pretty disappointed by some of the brainlessness of the game v Scotland. On the other hand, Scotland are now a good team and they played well.

I also wonder whether we are over estimating the standard of this current group of players. I know it’s not comparing like with like, but how many of them would look like they fit in 2002-3 team? Very few I think. Itoje? Yes. Tuilagi? Yes if he wasn’t broken. Who else?

[Oakboy]

I was pretty disappointed by some of the brainlessness of the game v Scotland. On the other hand, Scotland are now a good team and they played well.

I also wonder whether we are over estimating the standard of this current group of players. I know it’s not comparing like with like, but how many of them would look like they fit in 2002-3 team? Very few I think. Itoje? Yes. Tuilagi? Yes if he wasn’t broken. Who else?

Reasonable thought but, maybe, if you were to ask how many of Robinson's or Johnson's team would get into the current squad you'd get a bit of balance. Nobody believes this squad is loaded with 6 or 7 World XV standard players (as SCW's team probably was) but I'd still argue this is the best bunch of players since 2003. Whether the team's performances reflect that is the important debate. I'd suggest not.

[Banquo]

I was pretty disappointed by some of the brainlessness of the game v Scotland. On the other hand, Scotland are now a good team and they played well.

I also wonder whether we are over estimating the standard of this current group of players. I know it’s not comparing like with like, but how many of them would look like they fit in 2002-3 team? Very few I think. Itoje? Yes. Tuilagi? Yes if he wasn’t broken. Who else?

Reasonable thought but, maybe, if you were to ask how many of Robinson's or Johnson's team would get into the current squad you'd get a bit of balance. Nobody believes this squad is loaded with 6 or 7 World XV standard players (as SCW's team probably was) but I'd still argue this is the best bunch of players since 2003. Whether the team's performances reflect that is the important debate. I'd suggest not.

Think we had this debate a couple of weeks ago. We have one or two excellent players, three or four very good and the rest ok by intl standards- irrespective of being greater than the sum of their parts (and frankly most coaches since SCW, have failed to this- EJ has done it from time to time, but inconsistently) we still do not churn out enough 'excellent intls' from our club rugby, and likely will struggle to do so whilst current structures are in place. SCW had a once in lifetime - not even once in a generation- pool it looks like . Some do consistently overrate our players, to the OP.

[Puja]

I was pretty disappointed by some of the brainlessness of the game v Scotland. On the other hand, Scotland are now a good team and they played well.

I also wonder whether we are over estimating the standard of this current group of players. I know it’s not comparing like with like, but how many of them would look like they fit in 2002-3 team? Very few I think. Itoje? Yes. Tuilagi? Yes if he wasn’t broken. Who else?

Reasonable thought but, maybe, if you were to ask how many of Robinson's or Johnson's team would get into the current squad you'd get a bit of balance. Nobody believes this squad is loaded with 6 or 7 World XV standard players (as SCW's team probably was) but I'd still argue this is the best bunch of players since 2003. Whether the team's performances reflect that is the important debate. I'd suggest not.

Excellent point. If we look at our team in 2011:
Foden, Ashton, Tuilagi, Flood, Cueto, Wilkinson, Youngs, Stevens, Thompson, Cole, Deacon, Palmer, Croft, Moody, Easter

I'd say, of those, the only ones that would go straight into a fully-fit* starting XV would be 2011!Cole and Tom Croft (I mean, we'd have 2011!Tuilagi as well, but that's as much about him not being injured as often as him necessarily being better than 2022!Tuilagi).

If we go to 2007, that's a bit trickier:
Robinson; Sackey, Tait, Catt, Cueto; Wilkinson, Gomarsall, Sheridan, Regan, Vickery, Shaw, Kay, Corry, Moody, Easter

Obviously Robinson at any age, definitely Vickery and Catt (although that's more of a condemnation of our current 12s), probably 2007!Wilkinson, 2007!Cueto, Sheridan, and one of Shaw or Kay.

Puja

*Or at least a starting XV that's not missing May and Watson on the wings. I'd have 2011!Ashton or Cueto over Marchant or Malins, but May and Watson would be above them both.

[Timbo]

Are we talking about our best group of players when all available, or the team we had out against Scotland?

At the moment we’re short a lot of established, top tier internationals. Most/all of whom would definitely be capable of challenging for a place in any historical England team.

[Puja]

Just as a note, looking back on that 2007 side, how happy would we be if 2007!Danny Hipkiss was suddenly to be available for this current England team. He'd sail straight into this England team and start doing a very good job as the battering ram that we need.

Not exactly the best 12 England have ever developed, but he would be just the roundest of round pegs to fit into the hole in this England team.

Puja

[morepork]

You don't need a coach, you need a time machine.


Step back into the light you miserable bastards.

[badback]

Just as a note, looking back on that 2007 side, how happy would we be if 2007!Danny Hipkiss was suddenly to be available for this current England team. He'd sail straight into this England team and start doing a very good job as the battering ram that we need.

Not exactly the best 12 England have ever developed, but he would be just the roundest of round pegs to fit into the hole in this England team.

Puja

For some reason I have no recollection of Hipkiss at all. More about # of concussions I got than anything probably.

[Oakboy]

Of course, this is all about my irrational condemnation of Jones (according to Scrumhead) but I contend (always) that head coaches, Jones included, have to be judged on results and performances. Since RWC SF 2019, I'd argue (as rationally as I can in my befuddled state of senility) that neither results nor performances have been good enough. Most recently, our best available 23, and even Jones's selected 23, should have beaten that Scottish side comfortably. That's the crunch.

[Timbo]

I think a 2022 version of Danny Hipkiss would have to be around 20 pounds heavier to have much of an impact at international level.

[fivepointer]

Hipkiss won 13 caps. I thought it would have been more. At his best, he was a strong player.

[Puja]

Just as a note, looking back on that 2007 side, how happy would we be if 2007!Danny Hipkiss was suddenly to be available for this current England team. He'd sail straight into this England team and start doing a very good job as the battering ram that we need.

Not exactly the best 12 England have ever developed, but he would be just the roundest of round pegs to fit into the hole in this England team.

Puja

For some reason I have no recollection of Hipkiss at all. More about # of concussions I got than anything probably.

Basically, a barrel of bricks that a fairy godmother turned into a real boy. Didn't have great vision, but ask him to pick a line and he'd run it hard and direct and offload out the tackle.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Of course, this is all about my irrational condemnation of Jones (according to Scrumhead) but I contend (always) that head coaches, Jones included, have to be judged on results and performances. Since RWC SF 2019, I'd argue (as rationally as I can in my befuddled state of senility) that neither results nor performances have been good enough. Most recently, our best available 23, and even Jones's selected 23, should have beaten that Scottish side comfortably. That's the crunch.

I'd agree with you that since 2019 our results and performances have, in the main, been sub standard.

I dont think we've moved on from the WC final and other teams have definitely gone past us.

I'm not sure that any team we could currently put out would beat Scotland comfortably. Its been a few years since we've managed that.

[Puja]

I think a 2022 version of Danny Hipkiss would have to be around 20 pounds heavier to have much of an impact at international level.

A google tells me he was only 14 stone, which is frankly jaw-dropping. To compare, Slade is 15st 6. Admittedly, part of what Hipkiss had was his attitude and his speed into contact, neither of which are part of Slade's game, but it's astonishing how the game has changed in only just 11 years. We're not talking about going back to the good ol' days of amateurism - Hipkiss came through a professional academy and played Prem rugby till 2013. He's only a year older than Jimmy Gopperth.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Why do we keep doing this? I think I’d rather talk about Simmonds playing openside again. Jesus.

[Oakboy]

Of course, this is all about my irrational condemnation of Jones (according to Scrumhead) but I contend (always) that head coaches, Jones included, have to be judged on results and performances. Since RWC SF 2019, I'd argue (as rationally as I can in my befuddled state of senility) that neither results nor performances have been good enough. Most recently, our best available 23, and even Jones's selected 23, should have beaten that Scottish side comfortably. That's the crunch.

I'd agree with you that since 2019 our results and performances have, in the main, been sub standard.

I dont think we've moved on from the WC final and other teams have definitely gone past us.

I'm not sure that any team we could currently put out would beat Scotland comfortably. Its been a few years since we've managed that.

Fair enough. I'll back-track on the 'comfortably'. However, if you offered Andy Farrell, say, the English 23 or the Scottish 23, I reckon he'd take the English squad and reckon to beat the Scottish one at least 7 times out of 10. It's all hypothetical bollix, of course but we simply aren't playing up to par by some margin, IMO. Match on match, we are not improving and I think we are entitled to expect that.

[Spiffy]

Just as a note, looking back on that 2007 side, how happy would we be if 2007!Danny Hipkiss was suddenly to be available for this current England team. He'd sail straight into this England team and start doing a very good job as the battering ram that we need.

Not exactly the best 12 England have ever developed, but he would be just the roundest of round pegs to fit into the hole in this England team.

Puja

For some reason I have no recollection of Hipkiss at all. More about # of concussions I got than anything probably.

Basically, a barrel of bricks that a fairy godmother turned into a real boy. Didn't have great vision, but ask him to pick a line and he'd run it hard and direct and offload out the tackle.

Puja

England has its current barrel of bricks in Sam Simmonds. Bigger, stronger and faster than Hipkiss. Time to bite the bullet and give him a game end cameo at 12 once Italy are all stitched up.

[Danno]

Why do we keep doing this? I think I’d rather talk about Simmonds playing openside again. Jesus.

[Danno]

Why do we keep doing this? I think I’d rather talk about Simmonds playing openside again. Jesus.

For the record, I'm agreeing. But this is a forum, which is another way of saying a very cruel knacker's yard

[Danno]

Oh cool, I managed to quote myself, delete the quote post and then do the same thing anyway.

I'm off to Dignitas

[Mikey Brown]

More posts like that, please.