Italy vs England - Sunday 3pm

[Banquo]

Btw, is every unit in the team pretty much brand new. Second row, back row, back three for sure; centres played v SA for 78 I suppose…. Have Randall and Smith played together much? front row haven’t started together as far as I know?

Randall and Smith played the two summer tests together.

Puja

Cool, asleep at the wheel, me. So one unit, then…

[Which Tyler]

I don't understand Eddie - I THINK I can see some reason in the madness, but I'm really not confident in it.


His target is to win the RWC - to do that, you need to beat both NZ and SA - and there's basically no gameplan that is well suited to one, whilst not playing into the hands of the other. Which means you need variety of game styles - which he learned to his cost in 2019 (though I still say that 60 minutes of Sinckler and it's a completely different game).
Last cycle, he was working on confidence, then physical and mental toughness - and was brutal about it; with a gameplan to beat NZ and hope it'd be good enough against SA. It wasn't (not that we had a chance to execute it).

This cycle, it seems to be that he's doing a lot of experimenting - new players all over the place (often feeling too many, and not letting an individual get used to international rugby, and with the sad exception of Youngs and Farrell, and understandable exceptions of Sinckler, Itoje and Curry) and the game plan - as much as we viewers can tell, is changed for each window.
Now I give Eddie more credit than most - I think he's got a brain that never stops working, that he's always got a cunning plan, and that he plays the long game with his eyes firmly on the RWC. Others thing he's a rambling idiot barely (if at all) short of drooling on his shirt collar and would be better off selecting teams by throwing darts at a board.
I think he's shown glimpses of what he wants the team to do in flashes here and there - in defence and attack; but wants the team as a whole to be comfortable with many different options - so he flits about, he hides his hand; and IMO he's got a plan for NZ and a plan for SA, and I think he believes we can beat anyone else without really needing a plan. The plans may not work, I don't claim enough knowledge to put my finger on what they are, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we come a cropper by taking our eyes off a team he believes we can beat without showing our hand.
I also think he's flitting too much, I think that individuals risk ending up under-cooked by the time we land in France, I think it's a high-risk stategy.
Of course, there's also his hard-on for players who can play multiple positions to an international standard - which is entirely sensible if you're thinking of a RWC squad when you can't pick from outside of it. Again, I think he goes way too far with it; but it's not because he's an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing, or is blinded by his ego.

But I also think that anyone claiming that Eddie doesn't know what he's doing, is behind the times, or doesn't have a plan - is being blinded by dislike.

[Danno]

Does no one remember when Itoje wore the 6 shirt with Lawes at 5? And then packed down at lock anyway…

Pretty sure that’s what Eddie will go for again.

Other than that, team is good.

Can't wait to see how Ewels goes at 6

[Spiffy]

What's the spell that Ewels has on Eddie? What qualities does he have that a lot of us don't seem to be aware of?

On a positive note, the selection of Randall is encouraging and, lo and behold, centres who regularly play centre.
Good to see Nowell there too - a winger who should really hav had a loads more caps than he has.

Nowell generally is injured tbh. He’s also a tad slow for a winger, good club player, ok internationally.

Nowell is not a traditional flier and he won't be scoring many length-of the-field tries. I'd say he makes up for it by footwork, power, and sheer bloody mindedness. He's a tough nut who very often beats the first man, generally makes hard meters and can be handy at ruck time. Given the ball about 15 meters out I'd probably back him as more likely to get over the line than any other Englnd threequarter.

[francoisfou]

What's the spell that Ewels has on Eddie? What qualities does he have that a lot of us don't seem to be aware of?

On a positive note, the selection of Randall is encouraging and, lo and behold, centres who regularly play centre.
Good to see Nowell there too - a winger who should really hav had a loads more caps than he has.

Nowell generally is injured tbh. He’s also a tad slow for a winger, good club player, ok internationally.

Nowell is not a traditional flier and he won't be scoring many length-of the-field tries. I'd say he makes up for it by footwork, power, and sheer bloody mindedness. He's a tough nut who very often beats the first man, generally makes hard meters and can be handy at ruck time. Given the ball about 15 meters out I'd probably back him as more likely to get over the line than any other Englnd threequarter.

Good summary of Nowell’s strengths

[Galfon]

..
Good to see Nowell there too - a winger who should really hav had a loads more caps than he has.

Nowell generally is injured tbh. He’s also a tad slow for a winger, good club player, ok internationally.

..Given the ball about 15 meters out I'd probably back him as more likely to get over the line than any other Englnd threequarter.

Mikey thinks so too..
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/jac ... 96243.html
Maybe at his pomp a few years back, pre-injuries & slimline version.Always been smart position-wise & decision making.

[Danno]

He's just never, ever struck me as an actual winger. Jones' comments about trying him on the flank made more sense to me, but I think centre is where any other side (i.e. witbout Chiefs weirdarse systems) would play him. Too late for that now

[Banquo]

Nowell generally is injured tbh. He’s also a tad slow for a winger, good club player, ok internationally.

Nowell is not a traditional flier and he won't be scoring many length-of the-field tries. I'd say he makes up for it by footwork, power, and sheer bloody mindedness. He's a tough nut who very often beats the first man, generally makes hard meters and can be handy at ruck time. Given the ball about 15 meters out I'd probably back him as more likely to get over the line than any other Englnd threequarter.

Good summary of Nowell’s strengths

yes....but perennially injured, and not a top class wing, but an ok intl.

[Banquo]

I don't understand Eddie - I THINK I can see some reason in the madness, but I'm really not confident in it.


His target is to win the RWC - to do that, you need to beat both NZ and SA - and there's basically no gameplan that is well suited to one, whilst not playing into the hands of the other. Which means you need variety of game styles - which he learned to his cost in 2019 (though I still say that 60 minutes of Sinckler and it's a completely different game).
Last cycle, he was working on confidence, then physical and mental toughness - and was brutal about it; with a gameplan to beat NZ and hope it'd be good enough against SA. It wasn't (not that we had a chance to execute it).

This cycle, it seems to be that he's doing a lot of experimenting - new players all over the place (often feeling too many, and not letting an individual get used to international rugby, and with the sad exception of Youngs and Farrell, and understandable exceptions of Sinckler, Itoje and Curry) and the game plan - as much as we viewers can tell, is changed for each window.
Now I give Eddie more credit than most - I think he's got a brain that never stops working, that he's always got a cunning plan, and that he plays the long game with his eyes firmly on the RWC. Others thing he's a rambling idiot barely (if at all) short of drooling on his shirt collar and would be better off selecting teams by throwing darts at a board.
I think he's shown glimpses of what he wants the team to do in flashes here and there - in defence and attack; but wants the team as a whole to be comfortable with many different options - so he flits about, he hides his hand; and IMO he's got a plan for NZ and a plan for SA, and I think he believes we can beat anyone else without really needing a plan. The plans may not work, I don't claim enough knowledge to put my finger on what they are, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we come a cropper by taking our eyes off a team he believes we can beat without showing our hand.
I also think he's flitting too much, I think that individuals risk ending up under-cooked by the time we land in France, I think it's a high-risk stategy.
Of course, there's also his hard-on for players who can play multiple positions to an international standard - which is entirely sensible if you're thinking of a RWC squad when you can't pick from outside of it. Again, I think he goes way too far with it; but it's not because he's an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing, or is blinded by his ego.

But I also think that anyone claiming that Eddie doesn't know what he's doing, is behind the times, or doesn't have a plan - is being blinded by dislike.

I suspect he overthinks, if anything.

[Which Tyler]

I suspect he overthinks, if anything.

Agreed, far, far more likely.
Most likely though, is that he's an overthinker who knows that he overthinks, and picks assistants to haul him back

[Banquo]

I suspect he overthinks, if anything.

Agreed, far, far more likely.
Most likely though, is that he's an overthinker who knows that he overthinks, and picks assistants to haul him back

from his book, he picks assistants who work as hard as him-again maybe too hard -24/7 if needed

[Spiffy]

Nowell is not a traditional flier and he won't be scoring many length-of the-field tries. I'd say he makes up for it by footwork, power, and sheer bloody mindedness. He's a tough nut who very often beats the first man, generally makes hard meters and can be handy at ruck time. Given the ball about 15 meters out I'd probably back him as more likely to get over the line than any other Englnd threequarter.

Good summary of Nowell’s strengths

yes....but perennially injured, and not a top class wing, but an ok intl.

With May and Watson currently out of the frame who (if any) would you consider as a top class English wing?

[p/d]

I think we all over think thinking what he might be thinking with his continuous tinkering.

When it might be he isn’t as good as he thinks he is or we want him to be, and our crop of players aren’t as adaptable as he would like them to be and we don’t want them to be.

[Banquo]

Good summary of Nowell’s strengths

yes....but perennially injured, and not a top class wing, but an ok intl.

With May and Watson currently out of the frame who (if any) would you consider as a top class English wing?

none really, bar 2017 Daly. But that wasnt my point- FF was saying Nowell should have had more caps, and I was suggesting reasons why he hasnt. No problem with him being picked as 3rd or 4th in line, as he is ok, as above.

[Banquo]

I think we all over think thinking what he might be thinking with his continuous tinkering.

When it might be he isn’t as good as he thinks he is or we want him to be, and our crop of players aren’t as adaptable as he would like them to be and we don’t want them to be.

I`d certainly agree about our players not being adaptable, especially in games when things arent working. I dont think our players are as good as we think they are/would like them to be.

[p/d]

Good summary of Nowell’s strengths

yes....but perennially injured, and not a top class wing, but an ok intl.

With May and Watson currently out of the frame who (if any) would you consider as a top class English wing?

Spiffy, Nowell a cracker. I’d have him over May and Watson, not for being a better winger but for having greater influence on a game

[Banquo]

yes....but perennially injured, and not a top class wing, but an ok intl.

With May and Watson currently out of the frame who (if any) would you consider as a top class English wing?

Spiffy, Nowell a cracker. I’d have him over May and Watson, not for being a better winger but for having greater influence on a game

? cant really think of one for England. Plenty for Exeter. Then again, my memory isnt that good that I can think back that far.

[Cameo]

I don't understand Eddie - I THINK I can see some reason in the madness, but I'm really not confident in it.


His target is to win the RWC - to do that, you need to beat both NZ and SA - and there's basically no gameplan that is well suited to one, whilst not playing into the hands of the other. Which means you need variety of game styles - which he learned to his cost in 2019 (though I still say that 60 minutes of Sinckler and it's a completely different game).
Last cycle, he was working on confidence, then physical and mental toughness - and was brutal about it; with a gameplan to beat NZ and hope it'd be good enough against SA. It wasn't (not that we had a chance to execute it).

This cycle, it seems to be that he's doing a lot of experimenting - new players all over the place (often feeling too many, and not letting an individual get used to international rugby, and with the sad exception of Youngs and Farrell, and understandable exceptions of Sinckler, Itoje and Curry) and the game plan - as much as we viewers can tell, is changed for each window.
Now I give Eddie more credit than most - I think he's got a brain that never stops working, that he's always got a cunning plan, and that he plays the long game with his eyes firmly on the RWC. Others thing he's a rambling idiot barely (if at all) short of drooling on his shirt collar and would be better off selecting teams by throwing darts at a board.
I think he's shown glimpses of what he wants the team to do in flashes here and there - in defence and attack; but wants the team as a whole to be comfortable with many different options - so he flits about, he hides his hand; and IMO he's got a plan for NZ and a plan for SA, and I think he believes we can beat anyone else without really needing a plan. The plans may not work, I don't claim enough knowledge to put my finger on what they are, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we come a cropper by taking our eyes off a team he believes we can beat without showing our hand.
I also think he's flitting too much, I think that individuals risk ending up under-cooked by the time we land in France, I think it's a high-risk stategy.
Of course, there's also his hard-on for players who can play multiple positions to an international standard - which is entirely sensible if you're thinking of a RWC squad when you can't pick from outside of it. Again, I think he goes way too far with it; but it's not because he's an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing, or is blinded by his ego.

But I also think that anyone claiming that Eddie doesn't know what he's doing, is behind the times, or doesn't have a plan - is being blinded by dislike.

But, at risk of repeating myself from the other thread, re you happy with him viewing everything as a glorified training run for the next RWC?

I appreciate that might be more about the targets he has been set from above, but it seems ridiculous to me to bang on about the 6N being the best annual tournament on the world while not viewing as important enough to tell your coach to focus on - not sole focus, but at least focus.

[Spiffy]

yes....but perennially injured, and not a top class wing, but an ok intl.

With May and Watson currently out of the frame who (if any) would you consider as a top class English wing?

none really, bar 2017 Daly. But that wasnt my point- FF was saying Nowell should have had more caps, and I was suggesting reasons why he hasnt. No problem with him being picked as 3rd or 4th in line, as he is ok, as above.

Fair enough - you are basically saying that England's third or fourth choice wing is not top class but merely OK. That is a bit of a sad indictment of English rugby, with the world's biggest player base. I am not pushing Nowell as top class, simply pointing out his strengths, while realizing his limitations (including real gas.) But I'd still rate him as better than OK - say, pretty good. He brings an abrasive edge that most other wings lack.
At present, I think there are several young English wings who have a lot of talent, not top class, but with the potential to get there, and with genuine speed (Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Lynagh, Roebuck, Sleightholme, Loader and probably a few others I have forgotten.) I would really like to see what some can do at top level, not just be called up to training camp then routinely sent back home and have an out-of-position centre selected instead. The current and recent England threequarters look a fairly bland bunch.

[Which Tyler]

But, at risk of repeating myself from the other thread, re you happy with him viewing everything as a glorified training run for the next RWC?

No.

But then there's quite a bit in there I'm not happy about.

[Banquo]

With May and Watson currently out of the frame who (if any) would you consider as a top class English wing?

none really, bar 2017 Daly. But that wasnt my point- FF was saying Nowell should have had more caps, and I was suggesting reasons why he hasnt. No problem with him being picked as 3rd or 4th in line, as he is ok, as above.

Fair enough - you are basically saying that England's third or fourth choice wing is not top class but merely OK. That is a bit of a sad indictment of English rugby, with the world's biggest player base. I am not pushing Nowell as top class, simply pointing out his strengths, while realizing his limitations (including real gas.) But I'd still rate him as better than OK - say, pretty good. He brings an abrasive edge that most other wings lack.
At present, I think there are several young English wings who have a lot of talent, not top class, but with the potential to get there, and with genuine speed (Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Lynagh, Roebuck, Sleightholme, Loader and probably a few others I have forgotten.) I would really like to see what some can do at top level, not just be called up to training camp then routinely sent back home and have an out-of-position centre selected instead. The current and recent England threequarters look a fairly bland bunch.

I said Ok for an international, and that's what I'd expect from a 3rd or 4th choice for any country tbh (though I'd think May and Watson have in their own ways now have past their best days as well); I think we develop plenty of ok to good players, because that is what our as-is system will always do. I've consistently said, and been disappointed by, our inability to develop the sort of talent you mention into top class international players....its immensely frustrating, but won't change until we change our system with the aim of developing top intl players. The current bunch of 3/4 is pretty much what the board has been asking for! and whatever we say about EJ, he doesn't have a problem looking at young players.......the problem is what happens when he gets them into camp, and they often fall short of whatever mark he sets.

[fivepointer]

I don't understand Eddie - I THINK I can see some reason in the madness, but I'm really not confident in it.


His target is to win the RWC - to do that, you need to beat both NZ and SA - and there's basically no gameplan that is well suited to one, whilst not playing into the hands of the other. Which means you need variety of game styles - which he learned to his cost in 2019 (though I still say that 60 minutes of Sinckler and it's a completely different game).
Last cycle, he was working on confidence, then physical and mental toughness - and was brutal about it; with a gameplan to beat NZ and hope it'd be good enough against SA. It wasn't (not that we had a chance to execute it).

This cycle, it seems to be that he's doing a lot of experimenting - new players all over the place (often feeling too many, and not letting an individual get used to international rugby, and with the sad exception of Youngs and Farrell, and understandable exceptions of Sinckler, Itoje and Curry) and the game plan - as much as we viewers can tell, is changed for each window.
Now I give Eddie more credit than most - I think he's got a brain that never stops working, that he's always got a cunning plan, and that he plays the long game with his eyes firmly on the RWC. Others thing he's a rambling idiot barely (if at all) short of drooling on his shirt collar and would be better off selecting teams by throwing darts at a board.
I think he's shown glimpses of what he wants the team to do in flashes here and there - in defence and attack; but wants the team as a whole to be comfortable with many different options - so he flits about, he hides his hand; and IMO he's got a plan for NZ and a plan for SA, and I think he believes we can beat anyone else without really needing a plan. The plans may not work, I don't claim enough knowledge to put my finger on what they are, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we come a cropper by taking our eyes off a team he believes we can beat without showing our hand.
I also think he's flitting too much, I think that individuals risk ending up under-cooked by the time we land in France, I think it's a high-risk stategy.
Of course, there's also his hard-on for players who can play multiple positions to an international standard - which is entirely sensible if you're thinking of a RWC squad when you can't pick from outside of it. Again, I think he goes way too far with it; but it's not because he's an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing, or is blinded by his ego.

But I also think that anyone claiming that Eddie doesn't know what he's doing, is behind the times, or doesn't have a plan - is being blinded by dislike.

I suspect he overthinks, if anything.

Amen to that.

Pick your best players, play them in their best position and stick with them.

Dont over complicate things by worrying about NZ or SA down the line. Let them worry about you as your team develops and naturally evolves to be able to change tactics when required.

[Banquo]

none really, bar 2017 Daly. But that wasnt my point- FF was saying Nowell should have had more caps, and I was suggesting reasons why he hasnt. No problem with him being picked as 3rd or 4th in line, as he is ok, as above.

Fair enough - you are basically saying that England's third or fourth choice wing is not top class but merely OK. That is a bit of a sad indictment of English rugby, with the world's biggest player base. I am not pushing Nowell as top class, simply pointing out his strengths, while realizing his limitations (including real gas.) But I'd still rate him as better than OK - say, pretty good. He brings an abrasive edge that most other wings lack.
At present, I think there are several young English wings who have a lot of talent, not top class, but with the potential to get there, and with genuine speed (Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Lynagh, Roebuck, Sleightholme, Loader and probably a few others I have forgotten.) I would really like to see what some can do at top level, not just be called up to training camp then routinely sent back home and have an out-of-position centre selected instead. The current and recent England threequarters look a fairly bland bunch.

I said Ok for an international, and that's what I'd expect from a 3rd or 4th choice for any country tbh (though I'd think May and Watson have in their own ways now have past their best days as well); I think we develop plenty of ok to good players, because that is what our as-is system will always do. I've consistently said, and been disappointed by, our inability to develop the sort of talent you mention into top class international players....its immensely frustrating, but won't change until we change our system with the aim of developing top intl players. The current bunch of 3/4 is pretty much what the board has been asking for! and whatever we say about EJ, he doesn't have a problem looking at young players.......the problem is what happens when he gets them into camp, and they often fall short of whatever mark he sets.

TBH I think he has always looked to win the next game, which I agree with- he is a judge me on results fella, rather than look how well we are developing etc. I do agree with that tbh, but the problem comes when you are neither winning nor improving/developing the next in line players.

[Oakboy]

I think we all over think thinking what he might be thinking with his continuous tinkering.

When it might be he isn’t as good as he thinks he is or we want him to be, and our crop of players aren’t as adaptable as he would like them to be and we don’t want them to be.

Back in my management training days one snippet, oft used but still relevant today in every field of management, was 'Kiss'. Keep, It, Simple, Stupid.

Messages need to be understood. Do the easy things well and then build on solid foundations.

Jones's management style appears somewhat at odds with that, judging by results, performances and absence of consistency.

[Galfon]

Also, the SCW skill for a winning mentality 'tcup' (thinking correctly under pressure) appeared to go awol in the critical closing 10 mins.
I don't think LCD had time to think of the consequences - (certain 7 conceded rather than probable 5, followed by likely further 5-7 with a binning) but like tripping someone up or deliberate knock-on in the red zone, surely these actions can be coached out at the highest level.
Worse was the confusion and f*ck up with the Marler throw in, and the failure to really go for it, with the last attacking line out.
To their credit Eng didn't appear to be under much pressure up until near the end, I think Ita will be less cagey than Sco.