Team vs Scotland

[Scrumhead]

Of course, this is all about my irrational condemnation of Jones (according to Scrumhead) but I contend (always) that head coaches, Jones included, have to be judged on results and performances. Since RWC SF 2019, I'd argue (as rationally as I can in my befuddled state of senility) that neither results nor performances have been good enough. Most recently, our best available 23, and even Jones's selected 23, should have beaten that Scottish side comfortably. That's the crunch.

This particular post is not an ‘irrational condemnation’ though. I don’t particularly disagree with anything you’ve said.

I agree we should have beaten Scotland but like Puja, I think it’s somewhat fanciful to think we’d ‘comfortably’ beat them, particularly at Murrayfield.

The part I find odd is the extent of your ‘hatred’ (your word) of Eddie Jones. It’s so pervasive that it skews a lot of otherwise reasonable points you make and is frankly a bit weird.

At times, it literally feels like he’s done something to personally hurt you.

[Danno]

More posts like that, please.

The dead horse allegory, or my fecking myself off?

[Cameo]

I'm an outsider but isn't the real issue with Jones that wild inconsistency is built into his methods. He seems to write off about 60% of your games as preparation for future games, and constantly tinkers with certain positions as well as his coaches. Sometimes what he is building leads to a special performance, but he'll change it all up afterwards anyway. The highs might be higher (though more short-lived) than under a normal coach, but the lows will be lower. I can imagine other coaches less likely to win a grand slam or a World Cup, but I can't think of many more likely to take England to 5th or even 6th in the Six Nations.

So it depends what you want really. Someone who will have you in contention for the Six Nations every year, or someone who may be slightly more likely to win a World Cup but will write off large chunks of the time in between.

Incidentally, where has Digby gone? I always found his (?) analysis of what England were building towards to be interesting. Has he finally realised the futility of message boards?

[Puja]

Incidentally, where has Digby gone? I always found his (?) analysis of what England were building towards to be interesting. Has he finally realised the futility of message boards?

I was looking at that the other day. They haven't been on the board since posting something spectacular on the Politics board that received a near universal fuck off from all who saw it, so I don't know if they've taken the huff or what, but it's been several months since last posting.

Puja

[FKAS]

I think a 2022 version of Danny Hipkiss would have to be around 20 pounds heavier to have much of an impact at international level.

A google tells me he was only 14 stone, which is frankly jaw-dropping. To compare, Slade is 15st 6. Admittedly, part of what Hipkiss had was his attitude and his speed into contact, neither of which are part of Slade's game, but it's astonishing how the game has changed in only just 11 years. We're not talking about going back to the good ol' days of amateurism - Hipkiss came through a professional academy and played Prem rugby till 2013. He's only a year older than Jimmy Gopperth.

Puja

I suspect Google is probably wrong re the weight of Hipkiss.

His main attribute for me was his balance and low centre of gravity. He just kept motoring on through contact.

[Banquo]

I think a 2022 version of Danny Hipkiss would have to be around 20 pounds heavier to have much of an impact at international level.

A google tells me he was only 14 stone, which is frankly jaw-dropping. To compare, Slade is 15st 6. Admittedly, part of what Hipkiss had was his attitude and his speed into contact, neither of which are part of Slade's game, but it's astonishing how the game has changed in only just 11 years. We're not talking about going back to the good ol' days of amateurism - Hipkiss came through a professional academy and played Prem rugby till 2013. He's only a year older than Jimmy Gopperth.

Puja

I suspect Google is probably wrong re the weight of Hipkiss.

His main attribute for me was his balance and low centre of gravity. He just kept motoring on through contact.

He had a very good step too. But his decision making wasn't all that, and he wasn't intl standard tbh.

[Stom]

Incidentally, where has Digby gone? I always found his (?) analysis of what England were building towards to be interesting. Has he finally realised the futility of message boards?

I was looking at that the other day. They haven't been on the board since posting something spectacular on the Politics board that received a near universal fuck off from all who saw it, so I don't know if they've taken the huff or what, but it's been several months since last posting.

Puja

He was given a ban, so shrugged and left instead of seeing that it was temporary.

And the ban was for “historical” comments while he was being hounded by cashead for not sharing his exact worldview.

[FKAS]

A google tells me he was only 14 stone, which is frankly jaw-dropping. To compare, Slade is 15st 6. Admittedly, part of what Hipkiss had was his attitude and his speed into contact, neither of which are part of Slade's game, but it's astonishing how the game has changed in only just 11 years. We're not talking about going back to the good ol' days of amateurism - Hipkiss came through a professional academy and played Prem rugby till 2013. He's only a year older than Jimmy Gopperth.

Puja

I suspect Google is probably wrong re the weight of Hipkiss.

His main attribute for me was his balance and low centre of gravity. He just kept motoring on through contact.

He had a very good step too. But his decision making wasn't all that, and he wasn't intl standard tbh.

Yes, he was a stop gap at centre then and would be now as well. Smith could do with a centre giving him reliable go forward, might help him speed his play up and get more towards how he plays for Quins.

[Puja]

Incidentally, where has Digby gone? I always found his (?) analysis of what England were building towards to be interesting. Has he finally realised the futility of message boards?

I was looking at that the other day. They haven't been on the board since posting something spectacular on the Politics board that received a near universal fuck off from all who saw it, so I don't know if they've taken the huff or what, but it's been several months since last posting.

Puja

He was given a ban, so shrugged and left instead of seeing that it was temporary.

And the ban was for “historical” comments while he was being hounded by cashead for not sharing his exact worldview.

Tbf, they were pretty shitty comments. And it looks like he left waaay before the ban came in - last post was back in November.

Puja

[16th man]

I suspect Google is probably wrong re the weight of Hipkiss.

His main attribute for me was his balance and low centre of gravity. He just kept motoring on through contact.

He had a very good step too. But his decision making wasn't all that, and he wasn't intl standard tbh.

Yes, he was a stop gap at centre then and would be now as well. Smith could do with a centre giving him reliable go forward, might help him speed his play up and get more towards how he plays for Quins.

You could put a gene splicing experiment combining prime Jauzion and Nonu outside him and it wouldn't help whilst Youngs is playing like he did on Saturday.

[p/d]

As Healey points out Youngs stopped at every ruck to make a decision rather than feel a decision. He continued to say that Youngs is England’s best 9 when he is allowed to play by instinct.

Perhaps Quirke and Randall are still too excitable for Jones at the moment.
Likewise Smith

[Oakboy]

As Healey points out Youngs stopped at every ruck to make a decision rather than feel a decision. He continued to say that Youngs is England’s best 9 when he is allowed to play by instinct.

Perhaps Quirke and Randall are still too excitable for Jones at the moment.
Likewise Smith

Just pasted Healey's article on the Italy thread.

[Freddo]

Is there no IC out there that can play the battering ram role? What type of 12 is Dan Kelly or Piers O'Conor? Sam Hill anyone?

[Banquo]

I suspect Google is probably wrong re the weight of Hipkiss.

His main attribute for me was his balance and low centre of gravity. He just kept motoring on through contact.

He had a very good step too. But his decision making wasn't all that, and he wasn't intl standard tbh.

Yes, he was a stop gap at centre then and would be now as well. Smith could do with a centre giving him reliable go forward, might help him speed his play up and get more towards how he plays for Quins.

Ford could equally have said that for all the Faz years; no one is better flat to the gainline, and a running foil would have been ideal.

[Mellsblue]

IMO, O’Connor is the sort of 12 that is actually a 13 but has been pushed out of position by a world class player (and beard).

[Mellsblue]

Ford could equally have said that for all the Faz years; no one is better flat to the gaiune, and a running foil would have been ideal.

Exactement.

[Banquo]

IMO, O’Connor is the sort of 12 that is actually a 13 but has been pushed out of position by a world class player (and beard).

Interesting, and I get that, but actually he is also a good running 12 (of a different type to say Esterhuizen).

[Banquo]

Ford could equally have said that for all the Faz years; no one is better flat to the gaiune, and a running foil would have been ideal.

Exactement.

It kind of puzzles me why there seems to be a demand for a passing,distributing 12 in England; for me, its great if you can have a player who does that really well and is a running threat (either bosh, or step/pace) and great defensive reader.....but the latter two are imo a higher priority; certainly when I played 13 (and 15), having a running, hard tackling 12 was great- off first phase gave me a bit of time at 13, and created space for the 15 line outside the 13, and off second phase, much quicker ball in attack. In defence, great to have someone reliable inside you, so you could make the call on stopping a move or drifting or whatever.

That said, there are no obvious 12's like that who have kicked on (I had hopes for Devoto, O'Connor), Atkinson's time has imo gone, Dingwall may not be either physical or steppy enough. Is there anyone else knocking at that door?

[Mellsblue]

IMO, O’Connor is the sort of 12 that is actually a 13 but has been pushed out of position by a world class player (and beard).

Interesting, and I get that, but actually he is also a good running 12 (of a different type to say Esterhuizen).

He def does a job there but, for me, he’s a far better 13 and def not a test 12 which is the main crux of the matter on Team vs Scotland thread.

[Banquo]

IMO, O’Connor is the sort of 12 that is actually a 13 but has been pushed out of position by a world class player (and beard).

Interesting, and I get that, but actually he is also a good running 12 (of a different type to say Esterhuizen).

He def does a job there but, for me, he’s a far better 13 and def not a test 12 which is the main crux of the matter on Team vs Scotland thread.

TBH, I've not seen him enough at 13 to make a view, but I'd beg to differ about intl 12- runs clever lines, nice hands, good defender. We will never find out tho!

[Mellsblue]

Interesting, and I get that, but actually he is also a good running 12 (of a different type to say Esterhuizen).

He def does a job there but, for me, he’s a far better 13 and def not a test 12 which is the main crux of the matter on Team vs Scotland thread.

TBH, I've not seen him enough at 13 to make a view, but I'd beg to differ about intl 12- runs clever lines, nice hands, good defender. We will never find out tho!

Iirc, he solely played 13 before the arrival of Radradra and I thought that was his best form. My judgement may be clouded by recency bias as I think he’s looked poor at 12 this season in, perhaps crucially, a poorly performing team. As you say, I doubt we’ll get the chance to see him at 12 for England as Jones seems wedded to the 2nd 5/8th at IC to the extent he won’t actually pick a 12….. well, perhaps when he’s 31 he might get the call.

[Banquo]

He def does a job there but, for me, he’s a far better 13 and def not a test 12 which is the main crux of the matter on Team vs Scotland thread.

TBH, I've not seen him enough at 13 to make a view, but I'd beg to differ about intl 12- runs clever lines, nice hands, good defender. We will never find out tho!

Iirc, he solely played 13 before the arrival of Radradra and I thought that was his best form. My judgement may be clouded by recency bias as I think he’s looked poor at 12 this season in, perhaps crucially, a poorly performing team. As you say, I doubt we’ll get the chance to see him at 12 for England as Jones seems wedded to the 2nd 5/8th at IC to the extent he won’t actually pick a 12….. well, perhaps when he’s 31 he might get the call.

Fair enough, I just remember seeing him at 12 with Radrada and thinking, that's a scary centre partnership, and a big part of it was his clever play at 12; but having Radrada outside would always make you look better as he is such a threat- and beard.

[Mellsblue]

Dave Walder’s thoughts on the now infamous pen try:

“It was either very good coaching from Scotland, poor awareness by England, or a bit of both”
“From the initial scrum, you’d be expecting either your blind-side flanker [Alex Dombrandt] or your scrum half [Ben Youngs] to drop back and look after the side where the scrum was held. England didn’t. Youngs travelled all the way across, so the No 6 would have been better to look after that wide defence, not Cowan-Dickie. Marchant could have stayed over that side, but that would have left a gap in the middle of the backfield, and Russell will pick out those gaps all day long.”

[p/d]

Scotland looked absolutely pants today. Well done Wales

Game on!!!

[Banquo]

Scotland looked absolutely pants today. Well done Wales

Game on!!!

They were awful second half. Russell rustled