FKAS wrote:Quirke really only emerged last season and has had very few games for Sale. I don't think he could have come through earlier.
Robson is not international quality and was persisted with for to long though there weren't many obvious candidates until recently.
Randall is likely to go the same way as Robson unless he learns how to kick and control a game.
There's me thinking that Randall is the type of scrum half England have needed for a long time, but now he apparently needs to learn the basics of being a scrum half by learning to kick and control a game?
At least 60* of Ben Youngs' caps have featured passing skills that an U15s player would be embarrassed about and about 20 hours of him staring at the ball at the base of rucks. It's not the greatest highlight reel tbh.
I thought Randall was a breath of fresh air considering it was his first 6N start and away too. No idea why Eddie replaced him tbh. That's two consecutive weeks he has taken the wrong half back off.
p/d wrote:Player selection - chances/lack of etc - aside I really struggle to support the ascertain Jones had been a great coach. Unless great in modern days means ok
Yep. Given the resources and the ambition to be the best in the world, we have been ok...just about.
There has been a whiff of mid to late 90s England cricket to Eddie's approach to new caps. If there isn't an immediate game winning performance then there does tend to be a move back to the old guard sooner rather than later, once that option becomes available, and if it doesn't its the next newbie to fill the spot until it is.
Banquo wrote:Who and what positions? Genuinely don't know who has been 'overlooked'? He seems to have had almost everyone good in the camp, and discarded a fair few, so interested to know what's been missed?
I'm not referring to the current squad as such, although I've no idea why Radwan hasn't made an appearance as yet. I'm on about over his tenure as a whole. Both Simmonds and Dombrandt could have been blooded earlier. Could Curry have more caps by now too? Same with Smith, Randall, Quirke. How the fuck has Ben Youngs managed to get over 100 caps and is still likely to feature in the world cup when he has had Robson, Randall and Quirke available for much of the last few seasons? Same could be asked about quite a few other players Jones has persisted with.
Did SCW persist with truly awful players for so long?
I'm not suggesting the current generation are better players man for man than the ones leading up to and including the RWC, but I do think Eddie has missed quite a few chances to generate real competition for places. He has had so many options.
Simmonds was blooded in 2017 and came up short; Dombrandt has only this season become a more consistent player. Curry was only 20 when Eddoe first picked him. Smith is only 22, and has been round the squad for a while- I think his timing is about right. Quirke is similarly young, and has only recently been featuring much for Sale and playing well. Robson has been found wanting. Randall maybe has a case, as he's been playing well for a while, but tbh the perception has that he's a tad small.
I don't agree in short- we are not awash with top players. TBH you've only managed to pick a hole- and a small one- at 9.
FKAS wrote:
Brad Barritt was in his prime at that point. Not a player for the games but of you wanted a 12 to get the job done he was it. The 12 channel was closed for business with him defending it and he'd carry and tackle all day for the team. Ant Allen and Twelvetrees also in their prime. Don't think he was stuck for options.
Lancaster is the type of DOR you want if you've got someone like Cockers as head coach. Burt was all about the ethos and leadership meetings if you listen to pros at the time. Sounded like he needed a bit more fire in that set up.
Eddie transformed the England side. He's been a great coach but post the last world cup it's not been great. He's immeasurably better than Lancaster.
quite ( always a fan of Allen, bit less of hit and miss Billy at 12) and quite and quite; though I do have a big issue with the backs under Eddie.
Depends which era of the Eddie regime we're talking about. I know none of us particularly enjoy Farrell at 12 and there's always a moan about Youngs irrelevant of how he plays but we did go on a very good unbeaten run with Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Joseph all combining.
Post World Cup we've not seen the growth we've wanted. I think that's what's generating the real annoyance. When young guys do come into the backline they look good ala Smith, Quirke, Radwan, Steward etc but some seem to drop out quickly and the crowbarring of Daly in at 13 or Farrell's untouchable position in the side do cause unease when we aren't winning.
Eddie's succession planning is looking ropey at the moment. I know he probably isn't looking past the next world cup but we seem increasingly moving towards needing a backline revamp so he may have to just rip the plaster off rather than keeping trying to drip feed players in with experience around them.
Pretty much since the world cup, and even before then, imo we'd have been better sans Farrell. At the moment the backs are lacking a clear direction, even if its just consistency of selection. I may have mentioned before that I'm fed up of the over experimentation in the backs. Even before, when we were doing well, I didn't feel the backs were optimised....and a lot of that was Faz, and all the natural instincts being coached out of Youngs.
Banquo wrote:Who and what positions? Genuinely don't know who has been 'overlooked'? He seems to have had almost everyone good in the camp, and discarded a fair few, so interested to know what's been missed?
I'm not referring to the current squad as such, although I've no idea why Radwan hasn't made an appearance as yet. I'm on about over his tenure as a whole. Both Simmonds and Dombrandt could have been blooded earlier. Could Curry have more caps by now too? Same with Smith, Randall, Quirke. How the fuck has Ben Youngs managed to get over 100 caps and is still likely to feature in the world cup when he has had Robson, Randall and Quirke available for much of the last few seasons? Same could be asked about quite a few other players Jones has persisted with.
Did SCW persist with truly awful players for so long?
I'm not suggesting the current generation are better players man for man than the ones leading up to and including the RWC, but I do think Eddie has missed quite a few chances to generate real competition for places. He has had so many options.
Quirke really only emerged last season and has had very few games for Sale. I don't think he could have come through earlier.
Robson is not international quality and was persisted with for to long though there weren't many obvious candidates until recently.
Randall is likely to go the same way as Robson unless he learns how to kick and control a game.
Hardly persisted with. Called into a squad in 2016, he wasn't capped until 2019. He would have gone to the World Cup when he was in blistering form but had a blood clots on his lungs and couldn't play. He then played in the Autumn Nations Cup nearly two years later.
There are definitely blind spots to Jones' selection policy. Think we can all agree on 9, but also not looking at 8s like Simmonds sooner, or Dombrandt, or even Tom Willis, but lurching wildly between 6/locks who then get dropped quickly after a couple caps.
p/d wrote:Player selection - chances/lack of etc - aside I really struggle to support the ascertain Jones had been a great coach. Unless great in modern days means ok
I'd go for great immediately after the Burt disaster (which followed the Johnson disaster) then very good up to and including the RWC. Since then, I think he's tried to move in a few different directions, and not got them right; the players have also self destructed a few times, esp the last 6N, though he is responsible for that too.
WaspInWales wrote:
I'm not referring to the current squad as such, although I've no idea why Radwan hasn't made an appearance as yet. I'm on about over his tenure as a whole. Both Simmonds and Dombrandt could have been blooded earlier. Could Curry have more caps by now too? Same with Smith, Randall, Quirke. How the fuck has Ben Youngs managed to get over 100 caps and is still likely to feature in the world cup when he has had Robson, Randall and Quirke available for much of the last few seasons? Same could be asked about quite a few other players Jones has persisted with.
Did SCW persist with truly awful players for so long?
I'm not suggesting the current generation are better players man for man than the ones leading up to and including the RWC, but I do think Eddie has missed quite a few chances to generate real competition for places. He has had so many options.
Quirke really only emerged last season and has had very few games for Sale. I don't think he could have come through earlier.
Robson is not international quality and was persisted with for to long though there weren't many obvious candidates until recently.
Randall is likely to go the same way as Robson unless he learns how to kick and control a game.
Hardly persisted with. Called into a squad in 2016, he wasn't capped until 2019. He would have gone to the World Cup when he was in blistering form but had a blood clots on his lungs and couldn't play. He then played in the Autumn Nations Cup nearly two years later.
There are definitely blind spots to Jones' selection policy. Think we can all agree on 9, but also not looking at 8s like Simmonds sooner, or Dombrandt, or even Tom Willis, but lurching wildly between 6/locks who then get dropped quickly after a couple caps.
He looked at Simmonds in 2017, and didn't like what he saw; I'm not sure Dombrandt was merited until this season- tho he got a go last summer. Who are these 6/lock lurches?
Last edited by Banquo on Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Very harsh to say Robson wasn’t up to it as he didn’t really get a fair crack of the whip. He deserved a run in the side to prove whether he was up to the job. I’m not convinced he would’ve been but to say he definitively was is to blindly trust Jones’s judgement and/or judge him on bit parts in matches. I say this without even taking into account Youngs has had numerous spells/runs of form when he hasn’t looked up to it yet has been given more whips to crack than you could find in p/d’s S&M dungeon.
Mellsblue wrote:Very harsh to say Robson wasn’t up to it as he didn’t really get a fair crack of the whip. He deserved a run in the side to prove whether he was up to the job. I’m not convinced he would’ve been but to say he definitively was is to blindly trust Jones’s judgement and/or judge him on bit parts in matches. I say this without even taking into account Youngs has had numerous spells/runs of form when he hasn’t looked up to it yet has been given more whips to crack than you could find in p/d’s S&M dungeon.
Mebbe on Robson, but he is an inconsistent player even at club level- and I'm a fan. But he's not stated a compelling enough case, through a variety of circumstances; Spencer was similarly offered up iirc.
Think its clear that Eddie sets a lot of store by what he sees in training- that said, I don't know how many camps Robson has been in.
Mellsblue wrote:Very harsh to say Robson wasn’t up to it as he didn’t really get a fair crack of the whip. He deserved a run in the side to prove whether he was up to the job. I’m not convinced he would’ve been but to say he definitively was is to blindly trust Jones’s judgement and/or judge him on bit parts in matches. I say this without even taking into account Youngs has had numerous spells/runs of form when he hasn’t looked up to it yet has been given more whips to crack than you could find in p/d’s S&M dungeon.
Mebbe on Robson, but he is an inconsistent player even at club level- and I'm a fan. But he's not stated a compelling enough case, through a variety of circumstances; Spencer was similarly offered up iirc.
Think its clear that Eddie sets a lot of store by what he sees in training- that said, I don't know how many camps Robson has been in.
Yep, not sure he was the answer but it would’ve been nice to have found out for sure. Jones does put a lot weight on in camp performance but even he…. sorry…. only he must believe he’s correct 100% of the time and it’s clear and obvious to even those who rate him as a coach that he has blind spots and is blind to the form of his favourites. I hate to bang on about it, but the only real criteria was whether Robson’s case was more compelling than the incumbent’s and, I’d guess, that to most there have been periods where that is the case. Even if you disagree on that, we’ve spent years praying that Youngs doesn’t cop for a serious injury which is no way to run a successful team.
Robson has never started an international. His 14 caps are all from the bench. Difficult to make much of a case if you never start. In any event, he was overlooked when playing really well and then got injured. he wasnt capped until 2019. He was the form SH in England 3/4 years earlier.
Spencer similarly has never started a game (4 sub apps). His good club form has largely been ignored.
Maunder had all of 2 minutes off the bench and then discarded in 2017.
The list isnt exhaustive but players cant really make a case of they dont get the opportunities.
fivepointer wrote:Robson has never started an international. His 14 caps are all from the bench. Difficult to make much of a case if you never start. In any event, he was overlooked when playing really well and then got injured. he wasnt capped until 2019. He was the form SH in England 3/4 years earlier.
Spencer similarly has never started a game (4 sub apps). His good club form has largely been ignored.
Maunder had all of 2 minutes off the bench and then discarded in 2017.
The list isnt exhaustive but players cant really make a case of they dont get the opportunities.
I agree, but Jones viewed that what he saw in camp, club games or in brief appearances didn't float his boat.
Extrapolating this to him overlooking many players seems a big leap, which was the original assertion and source of debate. The reality is that all the names mentioned aren't really top players, including Youngs
Mellsblue wrote:Very harsh to say Robson wasn’t up to it as he didn’t really get a fair crack of the whip. He deserved a run in the side to prove whether he was up to the job. I’m not convinced he would’ve been but to say he definitively was is to blindly trust Jones’s judgement and/or judge him on bit parts in matches. I say this without even taking into account Youngs has had numerous spells/runs of form when he hasn’t looked up to it yet has been given more whips to crack than you could find in p/d’s S&M dungeon.
Mebbe on Robson, but he is an inconsistent player even at club level- and I'm a fan. But he's not stated a compelling enough case, through a variety of circumstances; Spencer was similarly offered up iirc.
Think its clear that Eddie sets a lot of store by what he sees in training- that said, I don't know how many camps Robson has been in.
Yep, not sure he was the answer but it would’ve been nice to have found out for sure. Jones does put a lot weight on in camp performance but even he…. sorry…. only he must believe he’s correct 100% of the time and it’s clear and obvious to even those who rate him as a coach that he has blind spots and is blind to the form of his favourites. I hate to bang on about it, but the only real criteria was whether Robson’s case was more compelling than the incumbent’s and, I’d guess, that to most there have been periods where that is the case. Even if you disagree on that, we’ve spent years praying that Youngs doesn’t cop for a serious injury which is no way to run a successful team.
True, but him resorting to Heinz says something or other . We should be excoriating him for not getting Care to conform or whatever
Anyhoo, as I said above, there is a hole in Jones' selection armoury around 9, but extrapolating that to saying he doesn't give players chances, or chances early enough doesn't really stand up.
(as long as no one mentions Farrell, I won't get cross )
Banquo wrote:
quite ( always a fan of Allen, bit less of hit and miss Billy at 12) and quite and quite; though I do have a big issue with the backs under Eddie.
Depends which era of the Eddie regime we're talking about. I know none of us particularly enjoy Farrell at 12 and there's always a moan about Youngs irrelevant of how he plays but we did go on a very good unbeaten run with Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Joseph all combining.
Post World Cup we've not seen the growth we've wanted. I think that's what's generating the real annoyance. When young guys do come into the backline they look good ala Smith, Quirke, Radwan, Steward etc but some seem to drop out quickly and the crowbarring of Daly in at 13 or Farrell's untouchable position in the side do cause unease when we aren't winning.
Eddie's succession planning is looking ropey at the moment. I know he probably isn't looking past the next world cup but we seem increasingly moving towards needing a backline revamp so he may have to just rip the plaster off rather than keeping trying to drip feed players in with experience around them.
Pretty much since the world cup, and even before then, imo we'd have been better sans Farrell. At the moment the backs are lacking a clear direction, even if its just consistency of selection. I may have mentioned before that I'm fed up of the over experimentation in the backs. Even before, when we were doing well, I didn't feel the backs were optimised....and a lot of that was Faz, and all the natural instincts being coached out of Youngs.
Re the English backs, I honstly think that Slade and Marchant are quite overrated. They had a good game against SA in the autumn, and that's about it. Slade has been around for some time now, generally plays quite well, but is rarely brilliant, lights up a game or puts his stamp on the proceedings (to be fair switching between 12/13 is not ideal). Marchant is likewise reliable and solid but lacks some spark you'd like to see in an international midfielder (and I don't think he's a wing option.)
I'm aware that England chronically lack top quality centres, of either the heavy-duty carrying type, or the smart, nippy footballer, so Jones' hands are tied to a significant extent in selection. If any other centres are to come into contention for the RWC (e.g. Ojomo) then they have to be given a run sooner than later to stake the claim. Otherwise we will continue to see the status quo, and even worse - a return of Faz at 12.
Banquo wrote:
Mebbe on Robson, but he is an inconsistent player even at club level- and I'm a fan. But he's not stated a compelling enough case, through a variety of circumstances; Spencer was similarly offered up iirc.
Think its clear that Eddie sets a lot of store by what he sees in training- that said, I don't know how many camps Robson has been in.
Yep, not sure he was the answer but it would’ve been nice to have found out for sure. Jones does put a lot weight on in camp performance but even he…. sorry…. only he must believe he’s correct 100% of the time and it’s clear and obvious to even those who rate him as a coach that he has blind spots and is blind to the form of his favourites. I hate to bang on about it, but the only real criteria was whether Robson’s case was more compelling than the incumbent’s and, I’d guess, that to most there have been periods where that is the case. Even if you disagree on that, we’ve spent years praying that Youngs doesn’t cop for a serious injury which is no way to run a successful team.
True, but him resorting to Heinz says something or other . We should be excoriating him for not getting Care to conform or whatever
Anyhoo, as I said above, there is a hole in Jones' selection armoury around 9, but extrapolating that to saying he doesn't give players chances, or chances early enough doesn't really stand up.
(as long as no one mentions Farrell, I won't get cross )
I'll give you 2 back rowers, Armand and Wilson.
Armand was the outstanding back row forward in England for a good 2/3 season. Never started a game for England and his time off the bench was minimal. I think he had about 5 minutes against Ireland.
Wilson (who has just announced his retirement) should have been capped before he did get a chance and then was left out of squads for the next year. He should have had more caps.
Jones cant play everyone, but certain players have been given little or no opportunity while in good form, while others have been indulged after a series of mediocre performances.
FKAS wrote:
Depends which era of the Eddie regime we're talking about. I know none of us particularly enjoy Farrell at 12 and there's always a moan about Youngs irrelevant of how he plays but we did go on a very good unbeaten run with Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Joseph all combining.
Post World Cup we've not seen the growth we've wanted. I think that's what's generating the real annoyance. When young guys do come into the backline they look good ala Smith, Quirke, Radwan, Steward etc but some seem to drop out quickly and the crowbarring of Daly in at 13 or Farrell's untouchable position in the side do cause unease when we aren't winning.
Eddie's succession planning is looking ropey at the moment. I know he probably isn't looking past the next world cup but we seem increasingly moving towards needing a backline revamp so he may have to just rip the plaster off rather than keeping trying to drip feed players in with experience around them.
Pretty much since the world cup, and even before then, imo we'd have been better sans Farrell. At the moment the backs are lacking a clear direction, even if its just consistency of selection. I may have mentioned before that I'm fed up of the over experimentation in the backs. Even before, when we were doing well, I didn't feel the backs were optimised....and a lot of that was Faz, and all the natural instincts being coached out of Youngs.
Re the English backs, I honstly think that Slade and Marchant are quite overrated. They had a good game against SA in the autumn, and that's about it. Slade has been around for some time now, generally plays quite well, but is rarely brilliant, lights up a game or puts his stamp on the proceedings (to be fair switching between 12/13 is not ideal). Marchant is likewise reliable and solid but lacks some spark you'd like to see in an international midfielder (and I don't think he's a wing option.)
I'm aware that England chronically lack top quality centres, of either the heavy-duty carrying type, or the smart, nippy footballer, so Jones' hands are tied to a significant extent in selection. If any other centres are to come into contention for the RWC (e.g. Ojomo) then they have to be given a run sooner than later to stake the claim. Otherwise we will continue to see the status quo, and even worse - a return of Faz at 12.
Yes. As I've said many times, we have plenty of good, ok players, but i ntl stars? Not many.
Banquo wrote:
Mebbe on Robson, but he is an inconsistent player even at club level- and I'm a fan. But he's not stated a compelling enough case, through a variety of circumstances; Spencer was similarly offered up iirc.
Think its clear that Eddie sets a lot of store by what he sees in training- that said, I don't know how many camps Robson has been in.
Yep, not sure he was the answer but it would’ve been nice to have found out for sure. Jones does put a lot weight on in camp performance but even he…. sorry…. only he must believe he’s correct 100% of the time and it’s clear and obvious to even those who rate him as a coach that he has blind spots and is blind to the form of his favourites. I hate to bang on about it, but the only real criteria was whether Robson’s case was more compelling than the incumbent’s and, I’d guess, that to most there have been periods where that is the case. Even if you disagree on that, we’ve spent years praying that Youngs doesn’t cop for a serious injury which is no way to run a successful team.
True, but him resorting to Heinz says something or other . We should be excoriating him for not getting Care to conform or whatever
Anyhoo, as I said above, there is a hole in Jones' selection armoury around 9, but extrapolating that to saying he doesn't give players chances, or chances early enough doesn't really stand up.
(as long as no one mentions Farrell, I won't get cross )
Agreed. I was arguing the specific point/player not the general selection debate.
Mellsblue wrote: I say this without even taking into account Youngs has had numerous spells/runs of form when he hasn’t looked up to it yet has been given more whips to crack than you could find in p/d’s S&M dungeon.
I feel I should be offended…… yet
I think Youngs was top drawer until Jones got hold of him. A player with that many caps should be the focus of adulation not a mix of relentless criticism and blind faith of a few devout Leicester supporters and one from Bedford.
Mellsblue wrote:
Yep, not sure he was the answer but it would’ve been nice to have found out for sure. Jones does put a lot weight on in camp performance but even he…. sorry…. only he must believe he’s correct 100% of the time and it’s clear and obvious to even those who rate him as a coach that he has blind spots and is blind to the form of his favourites. I hate to bang on about it, but the only real criteria was whether Robson’s case was more compelling than the incumbent’s and, I’d guess, that to most there have been periods where that is the case. Even if you disagree on that, we’ve spent years praying that Youngs doesn’t cop for a serious injury which is no way to run a successful team.
True, but him resorting to Heinz says something or other . We should be excoriating him for not getting Care to conform or whatever
Anyhoo, as I said above, there is a hole in Jones' selection armoury around 9, but extrapolating that to saying he doesn't give players chances, or chances early enough doesn't really stand up.
(as long as no one mentions Farrell, I won't get cross )
I'll give you 2 back rowers, Armand and Wilson.
Armand was the outstanding back row forward in England for a good 2/3 season. Never started a game for England and his time off the bench was minimal. I think he had about 5 minutes against Ireland.
Wilson (who has just announced his retirement) should have been capped before he did get a chance and then was left out of squads for the next year. He should have had more caps.
Jones cant play everyone, but certain players have been given little or no opportunity while in good form, while others have been indulged after a series of mediocre performances.
This is a classic case of looks good in the prem- Armand- in a specific role. He had a look and didn't like him in camp; I think Armand was only ever an emergency intl call up tbh. Also, he was 28/9 when he became eligible, and Eddie did seem to have a bit of a policy for a while of picking experienced intls of that sort of age or much younger non capped lads.
He made Wilson's international career in fairness (burt didn't pick him)- he picked him a year into his reign, and really rated him; I think he only disappeared due to injury first time round, and then again post RWC. 23 caps for a late starter injured a lot isn't too bad.
And its not like we are/were short of back row options in any case.
The list of 'hard done by' is frankly vanishingly small across the board; he has tried most that those proffer as being in excellent form in the prem- which means nada when it comes to intl rugby. And yes, I know its the only form guide....but EJ sets more store by what he sees close up....and its not like he doesn't watch many games...he watches tons.
Last edited by Banquo on Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mellsblue wrote: I say this without even taking into account Youngs has had numerous spells/runs of form when he hasn’t looked up to it yet has been given more whips to crack than you could find in p/d’s S&M dungeon.
I feel I should be offended…… yet
I think Youngs was top drawer until Jones got hold of him. A player with that many caps should be the focus of adulation not a mix of relentless criticism and blind faith of a few devout Leicester supporters and one from Bedford.
KInd of- I think Burt started to ruin him; he looked a fantastic instinctive running 9 when Johnson gave him his shot. Since then he's been overcoached on decision making and undercoached on passing.
Mellsblue wrote: I say this without even taking into account Youngs has had numerous spells/runs of form when he hasn’t looked up to it yet has been given more whips to crack than you could find in p/d’s S&M dungeon.
I feel I should be offended…… yet
I think Youngs was top drawer until Jones got hold of him. A player with that many caps should be the focus of adulation not a mix of relentless criticism and blind faith of a few devout Leicester supporters and one from Bedford.
KInd of- I think Burt started to ruin him; he looked a fantastic instinctive running 9 when Johnson gave him his shot. Since then he's been overcoached on decision making and undercoached on passing.
Being at Tigers under Cockerill didn’t help either. He had all the talent in the world when he broke through but the only skill in which he’s truly improved is the ol’ box kick. Given how much in match practise he got that was only be expected.
Banquo wrote:
True, but him resorting to Heinz says something or other . We should be excoriating him for not getting Care to conform or whatever
Anyhoo, as I said above, there is a hole in Jones' selection armoury around 9, but extrapolating that to saying he doesn't give players chances, or chances early enough doesn't really stand up.
(as long as no one mentions Farrell, I won't get cross )
I'll give you 2 back rowers, Armand and Wilson.
Armand was the outstanding back row forward in England for a good 2/3 season. Never started a game for England and his time off the bench was minimal. I think he had about 5 minutes against Ireland.
Wilson (who has just announced his retirement) should have been capped before he did get a chance and then was left out of squads for the next year. He should have had more caps.
Jones cant play everyone, but certain players have been given little or no opportunity while in good form, while others have been indulged after a series of mediocre performances.
This is a classic case of looks good in the prem- Armand- in a specific role. He had a look and didn't like him in camp; I think Armand was only ever an emergency intl call up tbh.
He made Wilson's international career in fairness (burt didn't pick him)- he picked him a year into his reign, and really rated him; I think he only disappeared due to injury first time round, and then again post RWC. 23 caps for a late starter injured a lot isn't too bad.
And its not like we are/were short of back row options in any case.
The list of 'hard done by' is frankly vanishingly small across the board; he has tried most that those proffer as being in excellent form in the prem- which means nada when it comes to intl rugby. And yes, I know its the only form guide....but EJ sets more store by what he sees close up....and its not like he doesn't watch many games...he watches tons.
Armand deserved a proper chance. He wasnt a one trick pony, he had a game that could have worked at international level if Jones wanted to bring him in.
Wilson was left out after Argentina and was playing for Newcastle. He only got called back in when injuries piled up.
If Prem form doesnt count for anything, why does Jones go and watch the games?
fivepointer wrote:
I'll give you 2 back rowers, Armand and Wilson.
Armand was the outstanding back row forward in England for a good 2/3 season. Never started a game for England and his time off the bench was minimal. I think he had about 5 minutes against Ireland.
Wilson (who has just announced his retirement) should have been capped before he did get a chance and then was left out of squads for the next year. He should have had more caps.
Jones cant play everyone, but certain players have been given little or no opportunity while in good form, while others have been indulged after a series of mediocre performances.
This is a classic case of looks good in the prem- Armand- in a specific role. He had a look and didn't like him in camp; I think Armand was only ever an emergency intl call up tbh.
He made Wilson's international career in fairness (burt didn't pick him)- he picked him a year into his reign, and really rated him; I think he only disappeared due to injury first time round, and then again post RWC. 23 caps for a late starter injured a lot isn't too bad.
And its not like we are/were short of back row options in any case.
The list of 'hard done by' is frankly vanishingly small across the board; he has tried most that those proffer as being in excellent form in the prem- which means nada when it comes to intl rugby. And yes, I know its the only form guide....but EJ sets more store by what he sees close up....and its not like he doesn't watch many games...he watches tons.
Armand deserved a proper chance. He wasnt a one trick pony, he had a game that could have worked at international level if Jones wanted to bring him in.
Wilson was left out after Argentina and was playing for Newcastle. He only got called back in when injuries piled up.
If Prem form doesnt count for anything, why does Jones go and watch the games?
Well the Armand thing is your opinion- I think he is a bit one dimensional as it happens.
I might grant you Wilson on trust, but Eddie gave him his international chance, and really rated him, so its a bit harsh to knock him on that- and again, plenty of options were around. He did take him to the RWC as well.
Prem form is obviously his start point; but its fairly obviously also the camp where he forms his views. And I said it counts for little in terms of translating into intl form.
The broader point is that it was being said he'd ignored far better options during his reign. And the arguments over Armand et al are (in my case) bald men fighting over a comb; these are not outstanding players being ignored, but a small number of good prem players, of which there are many.
Mellsblue wrote: I say this without even taking into account Youngs has had numerous spells/runs of form when he hasn’t looked up to it yet has been given more whips to crack than you could find in p/d’s S&M dungeon.
I feel I should be offended…… yet
I think Youngs was top drawer until Jones got hold of him. A player with that many caps should be the focus of adulation not a mix of relentless criticism and blind faith of a few devout Leicester supporters and one from Bedford.
If the ability to hang around too long whilst delivering below par performances is grounds for adulation then there are plenty of us on here that deserve it too.
. We should be excoriating him for not getting Care to conform or whatever 