Italy vs England - Sunday 3pm

[Banquo]

I say this without even taking into account Youngs has had numerous spells/runs of form when he hasn’t looked up to it yet has been given more whips to crack than you could find in p/d’s S&M dungeon.

I feel I should be offended…… yet

I think Youngs was top drawer until Jones got hold of him. A player with that many caps should be the focus of adulation not a mix of relentless criticism and blind faith of a few devout Leicester supporters and one from Bedford.

If the ability to hang around too long whilst delivering below par performances is grounds for adulation then there are plenty of us on here that deserve it too.

Yes, only Diggers took the hint

[SDHoneymonster]

Very harsh to say Robson wasn’t up to it as he didn’t really get a fair crack of the whip. He deserved a run in the side to prove whether he was up to the job. I’m not convinced he would’ve been but to say he definitively was is to blindly trust Jones’s judgement and/or judge him on bit parts in matches. I say this without even taking into account Youngs has had numerous spells/runs of form when he hasn’t looked up to it yet has been given more whips to crack than you could find in p/d’s S&M dungeon.

Mebbe on Robson, but he is an inconsistent player even at club level- and I'm a fan. But he's not stated a compelling enough case, through a variety of circumstances; Spencer was similarly offered up iirc.
Think its clear that Eddie sets a lot of store by what he sees in training- that said, I don't know how many camps Robson has been in.

Yep, not sure he was the answer but it would’ve been nice to have found out for sure. Jones does put a lot weight on in camp performance but even he…. sorry…. only he must believe he’s correct 100% of the time and it’s clear and obvious to even those who rate him as a coach that he has blind spots and is blind to the form of his favourites. I hate to bang on about it, but the only real criteria was whether Robson’s case was more compelling than the incumbent’s and, I’d guess, that to most there have been periods where that is the case. Even if you disagree on that, we’ve spent years praying that Youngs doesn’t cop for a serious injury which is no way to run a successful team.

There is virtually no coach in the world who picks purely on form though. If international coaches did that the team would be changing constantly. And even when they do they filter in new players and don't chuck them all in at once. I agree that Eddie has been stubborn in persisting with certain players but you can go on any forum for any international side and find fans moaning about the very same thing! I think we're worse at it in England as we tend to have more options than other sides given the sheer number of professional teams - we all have our favourites from our clubs and believe they could do a job at international level and they almost certainly could, but are they genuinely a better option than the incumbent or just a change of scene? It's always a bit too easy for an England coach to chop and change in a way it isn't for most other nations save France, which is partly why you don't see too many England players racking up huge cap numbers like you do for NZ, Ireland or Wales.

[Banquo]

Mebbe on Robson, but he is an inconsistent player even at club level- and I'm a fan. But he's not stated a compelling enough case, through a variety of circumstances; Spencer was similarly offered up iirc.
Think its clear that Eddie sets a lot of store by what he sees in training- that said, I don't know how many camps Robson has been in.

Yep, not sure he was the answer but it would’ve been nice to have found out for sure. Jones does put a lot weight on in camp performance but even he…. sorry…. only he must believe he’s correct 100% of the time and it’s clear and obvious to even those who rate him as a coach that he has blind spots and is blind to the form of his favourites. I hate to bang on about it, but the only real criteria was whether Robson’s case was more compelling than the incumbent’s and, I’d guess, that to most there have been periods where that is the case. Even if you disagree on that, we’ve spent years praying that Youngs doesn’t cop for a serious injury which is no way to run a successful team.

There is virtually no coach in the world who picks purely on form though. If international coaches did that the team would be changing constantly. And even when they do they filter in new players and don't chuck them all in at once. I agree that Eddie has been stubborn in persisting with certain players but you can go on any forum for any international side and find fans moaning about the very same thing! I think we're worse at it in England as we tend to have more options than other sides given the sheer number of professional teams - we all have our favourites from our clubs and believe they could do a job at international level and they almost certainly could, but are they genuinely a better option than the incumbent or just a change of scene? It's always a bit too easy for an England coach to chop and change in a way it isn't for most other nations save France, which is partly why you don't see too many England players racking up huge cap numbers like you do for NZ, Ireland or Wales.

Yus. Well apart from Faz and Ben Youngs . I'd also bore on by saying the general standard of the Prem misleads us a bit when a players is playing well

[WaspInWales]

Simmonds was blooded in 2017 and came up short; Dombrandt has only this season become a more consistent player. Curry was only 20 when Eddoe first picked him. Smith is only 22, and has been round the squad for a while- I think his timing is about right. Quirke is similarly young, and has only recently been featuring much for Sale and playing well. Robson has been found wanting. Randall maybe has a case, as he's been playing well for a while, but tbh the perception has that he's a tad small.

I don't agree in short- we are not awash with top players. TBH you've only managed to pick a hole- and a small one- at 9.

Fair point about Simmonds, but his form since then was worth looking at again. Arguably Dombrandt could have seen a bit more action before now too, even if it was as a 'finisher' replacing a long out of form Billy.

Also fair regarding Curry, my point was could Curry have been capped more by now? It was a genuine question. I'm too lazy to research how many potential caps he could have by now, allowing for any periods when he has been injured. I'm thankful Eddie gave him the chance as he is one of our genuine world class players.

Robson has not been found wanting at all imo.

I still think Eddie doesn't give a fair chance to many. Daly is pretty much there as a long range kicking option and ability to cover a few positions (some not very well), but we have better options for centre and fb, wing too so why not give Radwan or OHC a crack against Scotland or Italy. Same with Malins. Both great players at their best, but Eddie either loves the utility tag or doesn't see the benefit of having players playing in the positions they do for their clubs. Centres on the wing again stops a winger have a chance.

Then Itoje in the backrow. Another world class player, but this time not playing in his best position and preventing someone having a shot at 6. Either start Itoje or use him as a finisher whilst developing another lock.

I just think Eddie has dropped quite a few balls regarding selection. His pigheadedness was responsible for us finishing 5th last year. Apparently, he learned his lessons and then still selected an out of form and injured Farrell as captain this year.

I'll give Eddie credit for an impressive start and some more than decent scalps here and there, but his selection policy has also resulted in some dreadful results and performances. Overall, it has been a bang average return considering the resources and time he has had.

[Mellsblue]

Mebbe on Robson, but he is an inconsistent player even at club level- and I'm a fan. But he's not stated a compelling enough case, through a variety of circumstances; Spencer was similarly offered up iirc.
Think its clear that Eddie sets a lot of store by what he sees in training- that said, I don't know how many camps Robson has been in.

Yep, not sure he was the answer but it would’ve been nice to have found out for sure. Jones does put a lot weight on in camp performance but even he…. sorry…. only he must believe he’s correct 100% of the time and it’s clear and obvious to even those who rate him as a coach that he has blind spots and is blind to the form of his favourites. I hate to bang on about it, but the only real criteria was whether Robson’s case was more compelling than the incumbent’s and, I’d guess, that to most there have been periods where that is the case. Even if you disagree on that, we’ve spent years praying that Youngs doesn’t cop for a serious injury which is no way to run a successful team.

There is virtually no coach in the world who picks purely on form though. If international coaches did that the team would be changing constantly. And even when they do they filter in new players and don't chuck them all in at once. I agree that Eddie has been stubborn in persisting with certain players but you can go on any forum for any international side and find fans moaning about the very same thing! I think we're worse at it in England as we tend to have more options than other sides given the sheer number of professional teams - we all have our favourites from our clubs and believe they could do a job at international level and they almost certainly could, but are they genuinely a better option than the incumbent or just a change of scene? It's always a bit too easy for an England coach to chop and change in a way it isn't for most other nations save France, which is partly why you don't see too many England players racking up huge cap numbers like you do for NZ, Ireland or Wales.

If that’s what you believe, and I’d argue Youngs’ issues are beyond just poor form, then my last point surely still stands - that grooming a back-up(s) is important. Whether someone believes Youngs is up to the job or not, surely that person wouldn’t argue Jones’s succession planning at 9 is anything better than poor.

[badback]

Late to the party here. This may have all been said. When I finally managed to watch this, I thought Dombrandt was impressive. He just seemed comfortable and had some well shall we say street smarts. Otherwise… Daly looked a better winger than anywhere else. Genge pass! But on the other hand how many times did he knock on or do something daft.
Italy didn’t look very good

[francoisfou]

Next up are Wales at HQ, and one would hope that with a two-week break all the creases will be ironed out and the players will be in their accustomed positions, but then again, pigheaded Ed will no doubt chuck in the expected curve ball or two and hand the opportunity to the Welsh.

[Stom]

Simmonds was blooded in 2017 and came up short; Dombrandt has only this season become a more consistent player. Curry was only 20 when Eddoe first picked him. Smith is only 22, and has been round the squad for a while- I think his timing is about right. Quirke is similarly young, and has only recently been featuring much for Sale and playing well. Robson has been found wanting. Randall maybe has a case, as he's been playing well for a while, but tbh the perception has that he's a tad small.

I don't agree in short- we are not awash with top players. TBH you've only managed to pick a hole- and a small one- at 9.

Fair point about Simmonds, but his form since then was worth looking at again. Arguably Dombrandt could have seen a bit more action before now too, even if it was as a 'finisher' replacing a long out of form Billy.

Also fair regarding Curry, my point was could Curry have been capped more by now? It was a genuine question. I'm too lazy to research how many potential caps he could have by now, allowing for any periods when he has been injured. I'm thankful Eddie gave him the chance as he is one of our genuine world class players.

Robson has not been found wanting at all imo.

I still think Eddie doesn't give a fair chance to many. Daly is pretty much there as a long range kicking option and ability to cover a few positions (some not very well), but we have better options for centre and fb, wing too so why not give Radwan or OHC a crack against Scotland or Italy. Same with Malins. Both great players at their best, but Eddie either loves the utility tag or doesn't see the benefit of having players playing in the positions they do for their clubs. Centres on the wing again stops a winger have a chance.

Then Itoje in the backrow. Another world class player, but this time not playing in his best position and preventing someone having a shot at 6. Either start Itoje or use him as a finisher whilst developing another lock.

I just think Eddie has dropped quite a few balls regarding selection. His pigheadedness was responsible for us finishing 5th last year. Apparently, he learned his lessons and then still selected an out of form and injured Farrell as captain this year.

I'll give Eddie credit for an impressive start and some more than decent scalps here and there, but his selection policy has also resulted in some dreadful results and performances. Overall, it has been a bang average return considering the resources and time he has had.

Dombrandt was bought into the squad, then sent away with work ons. He went away and improved his game in the quarters and then Eddie called him back. I’d say he’s been handled perfectly.

Curry has played pretty much every minute available.

Simmonds did not look like a good fit for the game we were playing. Now Eddie has changed things up, he’s in the squad and in the 23.

Those are 3 odd picks to beat Eddie with, as they’ve all been handled sensibly, imo.

Pretty much Eddie hasn’t had a problem with selecting players, he’s had a problem with getting rid of players with lots of caps. He values that international experience over actual skill.

[FKAS]

Name an international coach who ditches all their experienced players and floods the team with youthful inexperience. It doesn't happen for a reason.

The most experienced players on the England squad have been there for a long period of times because we haven't had an option at 9 or 12 that could come in and takeover. Quite frankly we still don't despite Youngs doing England the favour of sitting out the summer and Farrell being with the Lions.

Quirke might be able to come in and dominate but his injury issues are a concern. Inside centre options are sparse unless a youngster is developed in the summer tour, I can understand why Eddie has decided not to opt for rookies at 9, 10 and 12 for the 6N especially given the issues with the prospective youngsters.

[Mellsblue]

Name an international coach who ditches all their experienced players and floods the team with youthful inexperience. It doesn't happen for a reason.

Who suggested he should do this?

[FKAS]

Name an international coach who ditches all their experienced players and floods the team with youthful inexperience. It doesn't happen for a reason.

Who suggested he should do this?

Well Stom did go with "Pretty much Eddie hasn’t had a problem with selecting players, he’s had a problem with getting rid of players with lots of caps. He values that international experience over actual skill."

[Mellsblue]

Name an international coach who ditches all their experienced players and floods the team with youthful inexperience. It doesn't happen for a reason.

Who suggested he should do this?

Well Stom did go with "Pretty much Eddie hasn’t had a problem with selecting players, he’s had a problem with getting rid of players with lots of caps. He values that international experience over actual skill."

Which wasn’t a suggestion to ditch all the experienced players.

[FKAS]

Who suggested he should do this?

Well Stom did go with "Pretty much Eddie hasn’t had a problem with selecting players, he’s had a problem with getting rid of players with lots of caps. He values that international experience over actual skill."

Which wasn’t a suggestion to ditch all the experienced players.

Yes my first point was about the need for experience and the second point was about the biggest complaint being 9 and 12 and that there hasn't been much in the way of options before and well now really.

[Mikey Brown]

We only deal in extremes here.

That actually seems bang on. I mean look at Billy. Clearly a world class player but desperately needed some competition or a bit of a change-up, but Jones would rather continue flogging him while he’s out of form. Now he ditches him entirely and we’re frantically hoping an inexperienced guy can play catch up. Hopefully the door is still open, but everything seems unnecessarily binary with Jones.

I thought Sarries getting relegated would be a perfect excuse for Jones to look at some other options. I don’t know if he continued with them because he felt bad about ruining their Lions chances or what, was international duty a way to keep them match-fit while in the championship? I’m not sure which one is worse, but now we’re looking at the pack without the Vunipolas anyway (who now seem to actually be playing well) at the same time as testing a dozen different variations of the backline.

[Scrumhead]

This is a classic case of looks good in the prem- Armand- in a specific role. He had a look and didn't like him in camp; I think Armand was only ever an emergency intl call up tbh.

He made Wilson's international career in fairness (burt didn't pick him)- he picked him a year into his reign, and really rated him; I think he only disappeared due to injury first time round, and then again post RWC. 23 caps for a late starter injured a lot isn't too bad.

And its not like we are/were short of back row options in any case.

The list of 'hard done by' is frankly vanishingly small across the board; he has tried most that those proffer as being in excellent form in the prem- which means nada when it comes to intl rugby. And yes, I know its the only form guide....but EJ sets more store by what he sees close up....and its not like he doesn't watch many games...he watches tons.

Armand deserved a proper chance. He wasnt a one trick pony, he had a game that could have worked at international level if Jones wanted to bring him in.
Wilson was left out after Argentina and was playing for Newcastle. He only got called back in when injuries piled up.

If Prem form doesnt count for anything, why does Jones go and watch the games?

Well the Armand thing is your opinion- I think he is a bit one dimensional as it happens.
I might grant you Wilson on trust, but Eddie gave him his international chance, and really rated him, so its a bit harsh to knock him on that- and again, plenty of options were around. He did take him to the RWC as well.

Prem form is obviously his start point; but its fairly obviously also the camp where he forms his views. And I said it counts for little in terms of translating into intl form.

The broader point is that it was being said he'd ignored far better options during his reign. And the arguments over Armand et al are (in my case) bald men fighting over a comb; these are not outstanding players being ignored, but a small number of good prem players, of which there are many.

Last paragraph absolutely nails it for me.

Robson could (and probably should) have picked up more caps along the way but a combination of injury and a tendency to shit the bed whenever Eddie was playing close attention did for him.

I’d argue that Care, Lozowski and Mercer AKA ‘The Japan 3’ have IMO, been the most hard done by in Eddie’s reign. Perhaps it’s my Quins bias, but Care was too good to jettison when he was cut, particularly considering there wasn’t a real replacement for him. A fact that ultimately culminated in Willi Heinz making the World Cup squad. Lozowski might not be a truly top player, but he’s quite a lot better than Piers Francis and should probably have had that spot. I’m not sure I’d have him in the squad right now, but I wouldn’t complain if he was picked either. Up until he left for France, Mercer was easily worth more of a chance. Thankfully he’s young enough for that not to matter too much and if the media is to be believed, he’s not entirely cut adrift.

The interesting element in the case of The Japan 3 is that of all people, Eddie shouldn’t have underestimated Japan. History proved they were a far better side than anyone really gave them credit for at the time, but he probably knew that already. The fact we didn’t wipe the floor with them shouldn’t have been the indelible stain it became for those three.

[WaspInWales]

Dombrandt was bought into the squad, then sent away with work ons. He went away and improved his game in the quarters and then Eddie called him back. I’d say he’s been handled perfectly.

Curry has played pretty much every minute available.

Simmonds did not look like a good fit for the game we were playing. Now Eddie has changed things up, he’s in the squad and in the 23.

Those are 3 odd picks to beat Eddie with, as they’ve all been handled sensibly, imo.

Pretty much Eddie hasn’t had a problem with selecting players, he’s had a problem with getting rid of players with lots of caps. He values that international experience over actual skill.

Fair enough about Curry, like I mentioned it was a genuine question.

I think both Dombrandt and Simmonds should have featured in last year's 6Ns. Massive missed opportunity there. Pretty sure Randall was in the squad, but can't remember if he came off the bench.

I don't think selecting players is Eddie's problem, it the policy he uses to select them. Shed load of utility backs and the over-reliance on players who he trusts but ones that seem to constantly be forgiven for their failures.

As for whomever mentioned wholesale changes based on constantly changing form, I'm not asking for that. It just would be nice if Eddie tried fielding a team with players in their strongest/natural positions.

[p/d]

Just everything still feels very much like a work in progress. New coaching set up, players out of position, new combinations, lack of test quality strength in depth and Jones unsure whether to persevere with the cardigan or return to the safety of the half zip jumper.

[Puja]

Ellis Genge has been rightly lauded for immediately stopping playing and calling attention when Negri was knocked out, including by Negri himself, but the BBC report on his public statement about his "helping" made me laugh:

"I gave him a slap to see if he reacted," Genge said. "He just carried on choking so I didn't know if he had swallowed his tongue - that's why I tried to roll him on to his side."
"I'm not a master in medicine, but I'm pretty sure you are supposed to put them in the recovery position so I tried to do that. I was quickly ushered away by the medics so I let them just carry on," added Genge.

For reference to anyone here who's not done any first aid, the recommended first action if someone's been knocked out is not actually to "give them a slap."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60378149

Puja

[Spiffy]

Dombrandt was bought into the squad, then sent away with work ons. He went away and improved his game in the quarters and then Eddie called him back. I’d say he’s been handled perfectly.

Curry has played pretty much every minute available.

Simmonds did not look like a good fit for the game we were playing. Now Eddie has changed things up, he’s in the squad and in the 23.

Those are 3 odd picks to beat Eddie with, as they’ve all been handled sensibly, imo.

Pretty much Eddie hasn’t had a problem with selecting players, he’s had a problem with getting rid of players with lots of caps. He values that international experience over actual skill.

Fair enough about Curry, like I mentioned it was a genuine question.

I think both Dombrandt and Simmonds should have featured in last year's 6Ns. Massive missed opportunity there. Pretty sure Randall was in the squad, but can't remember if he came off the bench.

I don't think selecting players is Eddie's problem, it the policy he uses to select them. Shed load of utility backs and the over-reliance on players who he trustsbut ones that seem to constantly be forgiven for their failures.

As for whomever mentioned wholesale changes based on constantly changing form, I'm not asking for that. It just would be nice if Eddie tried fielding a team with players in their strongest/natural positions.

That seems a bit of a contradiction in terms. If Jones' selection policy is flawed then selecting players really is his problem. i.e. he picks the wrong ones for whatever reasons.

[jngf]

Thought Dombrandt was excellent (5 turnovers) and deserves to start at 8 against Wales.

I agree. Thought you’d appreciate me saying so

I most certainly do

[jngf]

We do seem to have hit the 2nd to last phase of the eternal wheel of England sports team managers / head coaches.

1) previous guy gets fired for clinging too hard to favourites / theories regardless of form, fitness or performances.
2) immediate improvement from new hire as they replace said unfit / out of form favourites with fresh blood.
3) varied levels of success with new picks sees a core group of trusted players established.
4) loyalty to "the group" tickks over from a positive to a negative as favourites emerge he will get picked regardless / theory on how to use your players regardless of results sets in.
5) results and performances drop off, to be met with a bloody minded commitment to issues emerging in 4.
6) get fired, see new guy come in and have immediate improvements through moving away from favourites / theories

Rinse and repeat.

I'd argue Eddie actually didn't bring in huge amounts of fresh blood immediately. Lancaster wasn't a great head coach but he was a good selector, and Jones recognised that England's issue wasn't a lack of quality in the squad but that it was confused and underperforming. There's a reason it was only really Itoje that properly broke through in his first year in charge, and that's because he'd been left with a pretty good squad who showed they weren't performing as well as they could by immediately going and winning a grand slam.

Lancaster was a good selector? Cough sam burgess cough...

edit- he was quite good at identifying young talent, as that was his background. But selecting a first team and head coach were a bit much for him at that point I think. He was appointed too early in his own development.

Selecting Robshaw and Wood in wrong positions and leaving out Kvesic and Armitage made me view Burt’s selections as somewhat limited

[Oakboy]

During this debate the comment about X just being club standard (or similar) has featured. How do we know if the head coach has not given him a decent chance resulting in visible failure?

There are several factors that should also be considered:

Some players adjust quickly, others don't. A few minutes off the bench rarely proves anything.
It is unreasonable (Jones especially guilty, IMO) to watch a player in top club form for a season, then pick him when he is not.
Some players play better in internationals so relying on club form can work both ways.
First caps should always be in the player's proper position.
Maybe (not sure about this?), some clubs' playing style flatters their players if significant change is not required to adjust to the international style. 'Tried him, he didn't fit' - was that the player's fault or the head coach's?

[jngf]

On a slightly different tack was struck that Chessum looks to have a similar build/bodyshape to Tom Croft (albeit a couple of inches taller and a couple of stones heavier) - does he have some of Croft’s exceptional pace? (Asked in hopeful expectation)

[Banquo]

Simmonds was blooded in 2017 and came up short; Dombrandt has only this season become a more consistent player. Curry was only 20 when Eddoe first picked him. Smith is only 22, and has been round the squad for a while- I think his timing is about right. Quirke is similarly young, and has only recently been featuring much for Sale and playing well. Robson has been found wanting. Randall maybe has a case, as he's been playing well for a while, but tbh the perception has that he's a tad small.

I don't agree in short- we are not awash with top players. TBH you've only managed to pick a hole- and a small one- at 9.

Fair point about Simmonds, but his form since then was worth looking at again. Arguably Dombrandt could have seen a bit more action before now too, even if it was as a 'finisher' replacing a long out of form Billy.

Also fair regarding Curry, my point was could Curry have been capped more by now? It was a genuine question. I'm too lazy to research how many potential caps he could have by now, allowing for any periods when he has been injured. I'm thankful Eddie gave him the chance as he is one of our genuine world class players.

Robson has not been found wanting at all imo.

I still think Eddie doesn't give a fair chance to many. Daly is pretty much there as a long range kicking option and ability to cover a few positions (some not very well), but we have better options for centre and fb, wing too so why not give Radwan or OHC a crack against Scotland or Italy. Same with Malins. Both great players at their best, but Eddie either loves the utility tag or doesn't see the benefit of having players playing in the positions they do for their clubs. Centres on the wing again stops a winger have a chance.

Then Itoje in the backrow. Another world class player, but this time not playing in his best position and preventing someone having a shot at 6. Either start Itoje or use him as a finisher whilst developing another lock.

I just think Eddie has dropped quite a few balls regarding selection. His pigheadedness was responsible for us finishing 5th last year. Apparently, he learned his lessons and then still selected an out of form and injured Farrell as captain this year.

I'll give Eddie credit for an impressive start and some more than decent scalps here and there, but his selection policy has also resulted in some dreadful results and performances. Overall, it has been a bang average return considering the resources and time he has had.

Bit confused- the start point for this chat was

---Jones has continually ignored far better alternatives that he has had available.

Woodentop had to leave out some good players at times, but under Jones, they wouldn't even get a chance as he'd much rather play a few players out of position rather than give someone else a chance to claim the shirt.---

I asked for some specifics in players and positions......and it turns out to be a tiny list of players who in fact have featured/been in several camps under Eddie, plus a few you have lumped in above (Malins spent a lot of his time at Brizzle on the wing btw; Daly is imo a world class wing, having starred there on the Lions tour of 2017). I will agree that he has made some distinctly odd calls about where players play (though we all decried Lawes at 6 in fairness- turns out he has developed into that role quite well), but I don't think many if any have been disadvantaged by that, and I'd especially dispute the 'far better alternatives' piece and the assertion you make about the talent and depth at his disposal v SCW.

I think there is a fair bit to fault Eddie on, but casting his net wide is not one of them; it may be frustrating, but it does seem that its in training camps where players are evaluated fully. I think you and I probably disagree most on the talent pool he has- I don't think we produce many 'oven ready' top players, but a lot of good club players; he gets most of them into camp/on tours (eg Armand), and for whatever reason doesn't think they can make the jump. I'll concede though, that he moves on quickly - and as someone else has pointed out, that's the upside (and imo downside) of having so many pro teams.

I'm much more troubled by the team's continual high error count, poor discipline and poor breakdown performances-- and where we are going to get some cutting edge in midfield from. Like you, I'm a bit grumpy on the way the backs are being set up, but I could well be a bit stuck with my own ideal model for setting backs up. We have some quite big problems tbh- some of it is lack of quality players, some of it is something 'cultural' in the camp, some is the inevitable return of Faz, and some is what direction are we heading in- but I don't think its ignoring top players, nor has that been the issue before to any degree worth worrying.

[TheDasher]

Simmonds was blooded in 2017 and came up short; Dombrandt has only this season become a more consistent player. Curry was only 20 when Eddoe first picked him. Smith is only 22, and has been round the squad for a while- I think his timing is about right. Quirke is similarly young, and has only recently been featuring much for Sale and playing well. Robson has been found wanting. Randall maybe has a case, as he's been playing well for a while, but tbh the perception has that he's a tad small.

I don't agree in short- we are not awash with top players. TBH you've only managed to pick a hole- and a small one- at 9.

Fair point about Simmonds, but his form since then was worth looking at again. Arguably Dombrandt could have seen a bit more action before now too, even if it was as a 'finisher' replacing a long out of form Billy.

Also fair regarding Curry, my point was could Curry have been capped more by now? It was a genuine question. I'm too lazy to research how many potential caps he could have by now, allowing for any periods when he has been injured. I'm thankful Eddie gave him the chance as he is one of our genuine world class players.

Robson has not been found wanting at all imo.

I still think Eddie doesn't give a fair chance to many. Daly is pretty much there as a long range kicking option and ability to cover a few positions (some not very well), but we have better options for centre and fb, wing too so why not give Radwan or OHC a crack against Scotland or Italy. Same with Malins. Both great players at their best, but Eddie either loves the utility tag or doesn't see the benefit of having players playing in the positions they do for their clubs. Centres on the wing again stops a winger have a chance.

Then Itoje in the backrow. Another world class player, but this time not playing in his best position and preventing someone having a shot at 6. Either start Itoje or use him as a finisher whilst developing another lock.

I just think Eddie has dropped quite a few balls regarding selection. His pigheadedness was responsible for us finishing 5th last year. Apparently, he learned his lessons and then still selected an out of form and injured Farrell as captain this year.

I'll give Eddie credit for an impressive start and some more than decent scalps here and there, but his selection policy has also resulted in some dreadful results and performances. Overall, it has been a bang average return considering the resources and time he has had.

Bit confused- the start point for this chat was

---Jones has continually ignored far better alternatives that he has had available.

Woodentop had to leave out some good players at times, but under Jones, they wouldn't even get a chance as he'd much rather play a few players out of position rather than give someone else a chance to claim the shirt.---

I asked for some specifics in players and positions......and it turns out to be a tiny list of players who in fact have featured/been in several camps under Eddie, plus a few you have lumped in above (Malins spent a lot of his time at Brizzle on the wing btw; Daly is imo a world class wing, having starred there on the Lions tour of 2017). I will agree that he has made some distinctly odd calls about where players play (though we all decried Lawes at 6 in fairness- turns out he has developed into that role quite well), but I don't think many if any have been disadvantaged by that, and I'd especially dispute the 'far better alternatives' piece and the assertion you make about the talent and depth at his disposal v SCW.

I think there is a fair bit to fault Eddie on, but casting his net wide is not one of them; it may be frustrating, but it does seem that its in training camps where players are evaluated fully. I think you and I probably disagree most on the talent pool he has- I don't think we produce many 'oven ready' top players, but a lot of good club players; he gets most of them into camp/on tours (eg Armand), and for whatever reason doesn't think they can make the jump. I'll concede though, that he moves on quickly - and as someone else has pointed out, that's the upside (and imo downside) of having so many pro teams.

I'm much more troubled by the team's continual high error count, poor discipline and poor breakdown performances-- and where we are going to get some cutting edge in midfield from. Like you, I'm a bit grumpy on the way the backs are being set up, but I could well be a bit stuck with my own ideal model for setting backs up. We have some quite big problems tbh- some of it is lack of quality players, some of it is something 'cultural' in the camp, some is the inevitable return of Faz, and some is what direction are we heading in- but I don't think its ignoring top players, nor has that been the issue before to any degree worth worrying.

Hi all, long time no post but Banquo, hear hear. I totally agree.

I don't think that this 'massive player pool' that we keep hearing about has enough talent in it. I find it unbelievable that we don't have any physically imposing/dominant centres at all, I'm not sure I see any truly special NEW wingers knocking about at this moment and we've talked about how few leaders there are many times. We need some better scrummaging props and another imposing 2nd row or two.

I'd agree that the back row is a little different.

As an aside, it's why I'd like to see Barbeary rushed onto the bench asap. When we do come across special players with a point of difference, get them in and try them out please Eddie.