England V Wales

[Mellsblue]

It’s from an article about the 6N and I’ve posted it in a thread about a match in the 6N and the graphic clearly states it’s only 6N matches. I know we’re in an era where we don’t read beyond headlines or Twitter imposed character limits before forming an opinion but bloody hell.
Anyhoo, back to underwater table tennis.

It's tough to read beyond headlines when you only post an image, and not the article, or context of where it's from.... Just being in a 6N thread doesn't mean much, since it's just the most current international thread etc. I agree, if it's in an article that's clearly talking about 6N success, then it doesn't need the clarification (I'd still argue that placing 6N in the title would be better).

I just assumed everyone would read/look at the entirety of the graphic before using phrases such as ‘wilfully misleading’ and ‘deliberately deceptive’. It’s not exactly a 20,000 word dissertation. From here on in, I will use the Havard referencing system to avoid any confusion arising from people not reading approx 10 words in full. If it makes everyone feel better then this screenshot is of the top of the graphic.

[Banquo]

It literally says ‘Six Nations matches, 2000 to present’ on the graphic so it can’t be wilfully misleading. I could argue that Jones stated when he first started the job that the 6N are the important matches as it is tournament rugby but I treat everything he’s says with a lot of scepticism.

It puts it in small font at the bottom, after boldly proclaiming his Win Rate is worse than those two. It's deliberately deceptive. I'm sure they could have found an extra 3 characters worth of space to say 6N Win Rate.

It’s from an article about the 6N and I’ve posted it in a thread about a match in the 6N and the graphic clearly states it’s only 6N matches. I know we’re in an era where we don’t read beyond headlines or Twitter imposed character limits before forming an opinion but bloody hell.
Anyhoo, back to underwater table tennis.

yes, away with you!!

For the record, Eddie still has the highest win % against any oppos of 77.5% followed by Rowell, SCW, Geoff Cooke in the 71-72% region; Burt was at 61% and Jonno at 55%, Ashton a bit lower. Robinson was at 40%. Before the 90's it was all sub 50%, bar Mike Davis who coached Beaumonts teams.

[Banquo]

It’s from an article about the 6N and I’ve posted it in a thread about a match in the 6N and the graphic clearly states it’s only 6N matches. I know we’re in an era where we don’t read beyond headlines or Twitter imposed character limits before forming an opinion but bloody hell.
Anyhoo, back to underwater table tennis.

It's tough to read beyond headlines when you only post an image, and not the article, or context of where it's from.... Just being in a 6N thread doesn't mean much, since it's just the most current international thread etc. I agree, if it's in an article that's clearly talking about 6N success, then it doesn't need the clarification (I'd still argue that placing 6N in the title would be better).

TBH it made me have a look at the figures to check them. Its more interesting to think about why his 6M record in win/loss terms is relatively poor- some is due to successful touring, the rest AI's and success in the RWC (until the final)....and it sheds light on approach and priorities, which aren't necessarily the same as the fans.

[Raggs]

It’s from an article about the 6N and I’ve posted it in a thread about a match in the 6N and the graphic clearly states it’s only 6N matches. I know we’re in an era where we don’t read beyond headlines or Twitter imposed character limits before forming an opinion but bloody hell.
Anyhoo, back to underwater table tennis.

It's tough to read beyond headlines when you only post an image, and not the article, or context of where it's from.... Just being in a 6N thread doesn't mean much, since it's just the most current international thread etc. I agree, if it's in an article that's clearly talking about 6N success, then it doesn't need the clarification (I'd still argue that placing 6N in the title would be better).

TBH it made me have a look at the figures to check them. Its more interesting to think about why his 6M record in win/loss terms is relatively poor- some is due to successful touring, the rest AI's and success in the RWC (until the final)....and it sheds light on approach and priorities, which aren't necessarily the same as the fans.

We've seen before in the last cycle. Experimentation, then treats it like a mini world cup and tries not to bring anyone else in (since you can't do that easily in the world cup).

[Oakboy]

Funny that we were discussing salt earlier, though more than a pinch! Any hint of negativity about Jones brings out the defences. Should we just count the games that he said were important? Should we just count competitive matches?

I'd suggest two categories of interest: competitive matches since 2019 and crunch matches since his appointment.

As ever, though, it's the future that counts. If he wins every match from now on who can complain?

[Banquo]

It's tough to read beyond headlines when you only post an image, and not the article, or context of where it's from.... Just being in a 6N thread doesn't mean much, since it's just the most current international thread etc. I agree, if it's in an article that's clearly talking about 6N success, then it doesn't need the clarification (I'd still argue that placing 6N in the title would be better).

TBH it made me have a look at the figures to check them. Its more interesting to think about why his 6M record in win/loss terms is relatively poor- some is due to successful touring, the rest AI's and success in the RWC (until the final)....and it sheds light on approach and priorities, which aren't necessarily the same as the fans.

We've seen before in the last cycle. Experimentation, then treats it like a mini world cup and tries not to bring anyone else in (since you can't do that easily in the world cup).

yup. Food for thought though when outrage descends.

[Banquo]

Funny that we were discussing salt earlier, though more than a pinch! Any hint of negativity about Jones brings out the defences. Should we just count the games that he said were important? Should we just count competitive matches?

I'd suggest two categories of interest: competitive matches since 2019 and crunch matches since his appointment.

As ever, though, it's the future that counts. If he wins every match from now on who can complain?

Not really, just some perspective; as I've said many times, I don't like his flim flamming with the backs, and I'm immensely frustrated that we make the same mistakes over and over with discipline etc. BUT, whatever the methods, he still has delivered decent results in comparison with other England coaches.

[Mellsblue]

Also: he might have a worse 6N win rate than Lancaster, but he's also got three 6N titles, including one Grand Slam, under his belt when Big Stu managed a grand total of zero (somewhat unfortunately though it does have to be said - 2015 and that collapsed maul in the dying minutes against France in particular will always stick in the craw).

Yep, he’s definitely boom or bust rather than consistently just about acceptable, and his World Cup record is definitely better than Lancaster’s. We also need to take in to account that one 6N bust was at least partly due to the fact he was flogging the players in training.

[Stom]

It’s really hard to judge how much of England’s performance is under performance or just the level of the players…

When teams like Wales and Scotland can outperform us… but they rarely keep that level of performance up.

Yet we rarely have matches where you look at us and go wow. Like 1 per cycle. That’s not good enough and it surely isn’t the players considering Scotland, Wales, Australia…

[Oakboy]

It’s really hard to judge how much of England’s performance is under performance or just the level of the players…

When teams like Wales and Scotland can outperform us… but they rarely keep that level of performance up.

Yet we rarely have matches where you look at us and go wow. Like 1 per cycle. That’s not good enough and it surely isn’t the players considering Scotland, Wales, Australia…

Yes.

Could selection have produced more consistency? If so, would the average performance level rise/have risen?

If we cut some slack for 2nd row injuries, acknowledge progress/potential at 10/9 and assume that the props find top form, does it just leave the 12 and 8 shirts? Tuilagi fully fit permanently and a rejuvenated Billy V might solve the issues theoretically but I think we have to move on from both. I suppose there is time.

[Banquo]

It’s really hard to judge how much of England’s performance is under performance or just the level of the players…

When teams like Wales and Scotland can outperform us… but they rarely keep that level of performance up.

Yet we rarely have matches where you look at us and go wow. Like 1 per cycle. That’s not good enough and it surely isn’t the players considering Scotland, Wales, Australia…

Yes.

Could selection have produced more consistency? If so, would the average performance level rise/have risen?

If we cut some slack for 2nd row injuries, acknowledge progress/potential at 10/9 and assume that the props find top form, does it just leave the 12 and 8 shirts? Tuilagi fully fit permanently and a rejuvenated Billy V might solve the issues theoretically but I think we have to move on from both. I suppose there is time.

Its both individual positions and units- a lot of the units keep changing, some forced, some unforced. As well as evolving strategies and tactics. The backs selection, prep, tactics (moves) I'm finding frustrating, and I'm sure Eddie is finding the back 5 of the pack frustrating too

Personally- again- I think most positions and units (at least as starters) are up for grabs.

[SDHoneymonster]

RFU on Twitter just now:

Squad Update
Eddie Jones has retained 25 players as England continue preparations for Saturday’s Guinness Six Nations match against Wales.

Forwards

Ollie Chessum
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Alex Dombrandt
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Nick Isiekwe
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Bevan Rodd
Sam Simmonds
Kyle Sinckler
Will Stuart

Backs

Elliot Daly
George Ford
Max Malins
Jack Nowell
Harry Randall
Henry Slade
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward
Manu Tuilagi
Ben Youngs

Stuart being retained and no Launchbury are surprising. No Marchant either.

[Mellsblue]

RFU on Twitter just now:

Squad Update
Eddie Jones has retained 25 players as England continue preparations for Saturday’s Guinness Six Nations match against Wales.

Forwards

Ollie Chessum
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Alex Dombrandt
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Nick Isiekwe
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Bevan Rodd
Sam Simmonds
Kyle Sinckler
Will Stuart

Backs

Elliot Daly
George Ford
Max Malins
Jack Nowell
Harry Randall
Henry Slade
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward
Manu Tuilagi
Ben Youngs

Stuart being retained and no Launchbury are surprising. No Marchant either.

Who would you select in place of Stuart?

[SDHoneymonster]

RFU on Twitter just now:

Squad Update
Eddie Jones has retained 25 players as England continue preparations for Saturday’s Guinness Six Nations match against Wales.

Forwards

Ollie Chessum
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Alex Dombrandt
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Nick Isiekwe
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Bevan Rodd
Sam Simmonds
Kyle Sinckler
Will Stuart

Backs

Elliot Daly
George Ford
Max Malins
Jack Nowell
Harry Randall
Henry Slade
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward
Manu Tuilagi
Ben Youngs

Stuart being retained and no Launchbury are surprising. No Marchant either.

Who would you select in place of Stuart?

No one - I would've picked him myself! But his half time hooking in Rome felt a bit Burrell/Harrison/Isiekwe to me, as if Eddie had lost patience and was going to move on.

[Puja]

Put into a sensible order:

Genge
Marler
Rodd

George
LCD

Sinckler
Stuart

Itoje
Isiekwe
Ewels
Chessum

Lawes
Curry
Dombrandt
Simmonds


Youngs
Randall

Smith
Ford

Slade
Tuilagi

Daly
Nowell
Malins

Steward


15 forwards and 10 backs, so we're either ditching 2 forwards (for a 5:3 bench) or 1 forward and 1 back (for a 6:2). One of those is going to be a loosehead, so probably Rodd, and I'd imagine it's Chessum and Ford fighting out for the final spot on the bench.

Really good effort from Chessum - he must've impressed the England coaches a lot to have come from so far back at the start of the 6N to being still in with a shout of the matchday squad come Wales.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

RFU on Twitter just now:

Squad Update
Eddie Jones has retained 25 players as England continue preparations for Saturday’s Guinness Six Nations match against Wales.

Forwards

Ollie Chessum
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Alex Dombrandt
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Nick Isiekwe
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Bevan Rodd
Sam Simmonds
Kyle Sinckler
Will Stuart

Backs

Elliot Daly
George Ford
Max Malins
Jack Nowell
Harry Randall
Henry Slade
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward
Manu Tuilagi
Ben Youngs

Stuart being retained and no Launchbury are surprising. No Marchant either.

Who would you select in place of Stuart?

No one - I would've picked him myself! But his half time hooking in Rome felt a bit Burrell/Harrison/Isiekwe to me, as if Eddie had lost patience and was going to move on.

Ah, I see! I think the lack of a replacement has saved him. He hasn’t really kicked on over the last couple of seasons.

[fivepointer]

Heyes must be close to getting a chance. Stuart didnt enhance his rep last time out and his form this season has been sketchy. Cannot understand why Collier has been ignored.

Looks like the squad will cut a LHP and a back 5 forward. So Rodd and Chessum?

[Puja]

Stuart being retained and no Launchbury are surprising. No Marchant either.

Who would you select in place of Stuart?

No one - I would've picked him myself! But his half time hooking in Rome felt a bit Burrell/Harrison/Isiekwe to me, as if Eddie had lost patience and was going to move on.

Might've been a Burrell moment if only there was another realistic option to turn to! Perennial problem of English rugby - a bucket load of viable looseheads, but only ever one useful tighthead at a time, probably stretching right back to the brief period of Stevens and Cole being available together.

I think it's the right decision to stick with Stuart - Heyes is still (deservedly) behind Cole for Leicester (and that's not a mark of shame; Cole's a damned fine player, especially in this Indian summer) and he needs to keep going with his development and become a first choice club tighthead before he can have a realistic claim on an England shirt. Plus Stuart has previously shown that he can handle it for England, so I think some faith has to be shown.

Heyes must be close to getting a chance. Stuart didnt enhance his rep last time out and his form this season has been sketchy. Cannot understand why Collier has been ignored.

I don't rate Collier. For a player who doesn't offer a huge amount around the field, his scrummaging isn't really anything to write home about.

Puja

[SDHoneymonster]

Remarkable stat: England will be facing Wales sans Alun Wyn Jones for the first time since 2006! Also, I'm wondering if Rodd's retention suggests there might be a bit of a niggle for Genge or Marler?

[Danno]

No idea what Marchant has done wrong other than be less fragile than a miraculously fit again Manu. Still lacking wingers imo.

Fucking Ewels. Again.

[Puja]

No idea what Marchant has done wrong other than be less fragile than a miraculously fit again Manu. Still lacking wingers imo.

Fucking Ewels. Again.

He was a bit rubbish against Italy. Suffered from being screwed around with positionally, but he's not offered a compelling argument for his retention this 6N.

Puja

[SDHoneymonster]

No idea what Marchant has done wrong other than be less fragile than a miraculously fit again Manu. Still lacking wingers imo.

Fucking Ewels. Again.

He was a bit rubbish against Italy. Suffered from being screwed around with positionally, but he's not offered a compelling argument for his retention this 6N.

Puja

One of the major issues about England being so reliant on Tuilagi is that every other centre option we have would also ideally be playing alongside Tuilagi.

[p/d]

Only assume Launch is still off the pace. Real shame when we are left with Ewels and Isiekwe.

Gutted Barbeary isn’t retained but no problem with Marchant being left out. Got to be a 5:3 bench.

[Timbo]

Very underwhelming to see Ewels in the squad again, but Isiekwe is a good player.

Saw a stat that Launchbury has only taken one lineout since his comeback. I know he’s not always a gun lineout option, but only 1 take in 180 odd minutes suggests he might have some confidence issues around his knee still.

[Puja]

No idea what Marchant has done wrong other than be less fragile than a miraculously fit again Manu. Still lacking wingers imo.

Fucking Ewels. Again.

He was a bit rubbish against Italy. Suffered from being screwed around with positionally, but he's not offered a compelling argument for his retention this 6N.

Puja

One of the major issues about England being so reliant on Tuilagi is that every other centre option we have would also ideally be playing alongside Tuilagi.

Not unfair!

Only assume Launch is still off the pace. Real shame when we are left with Ewels and Isiekwe.

Gutted Barbeary isn’t retained but no problem with Marchant being left out. Got to be a 5:3 bench.

I'm actually quite pleased Barbeary's left out. He's got so much potential while also being so good in some areas, that I think the worst thing that could happen to him would be early success. He could be a competent international player right now, but it would be very easy for him to think he's made it and be like 2014/15 era BillyV - someone with amazing strengths and no incentive to develop the weak points in his game.

Puja