Stade de France Saturday 19th March

[Doorzetbornandbred]

Firstly, France are bloody marvellous to watch. Have ability to change gear and step up at key points. Very much the signs of a WC winning side. Class.

Us, well, we play exactly like a side trying too hard to try and compete. Where France have cohesion and control we have frantic and poor execution. We complicate when we need simplicity, we stick to a plan when we should be playing what is in front of us.

The pack lacks that ‘something’, be it simply Curry working with the outstanding Underhill or a nasty lock, whatever it is we made it easy for France. 9 & 10 became more a problem than a problem solver and as good as Steward was we still sacrificed an out and out flier in an attempt to try and stop France winning rather than to play to win

Players take some stick but wtf is Gleeson trying to get them to do!!

Interesting you should bring him up, currently in the process of doing my ERACA (Used to be the Level 3 Coaching Award). We were given a video of Gleeson to watch around attack etc. Whatsapp chat group Im in made up of 25 or so doing the ERACA all said it was utter rubbish. Stuff he was talking of was low level things that we already knew. Scott Wisemantel on the other hand has produced videos around attack during the pandemic that were absolutely mind blowing, page after page of notes and screenshots. I dont know why Wisey left but the attacks gone downhill rapidly since.

[Mellsblue]

Firstly, France are bloody marvellous to watch. Have ability to change gear and step up at key points. Very much the signs of a WC winning side. Class.

Us, well, we play exactly like a side trying too hard to try and compete. Where France have cohesion and control we have frantic and poor execution. We complicate when we need simplicity, we stick to a plan when we should be playing what is in front of us.

The pack lacks that ‘something’, be it simply Curry working with the outstanding Underhill or a nasty lock, whatever it is we made it easy for France. 9 & 10 became more a problem than a problem solver and as good as Steward was we still sacrificed an out and out flier in an attempt to try and stop France winning rather than to play to win

Players take some stick but wtf is Gleeson trying to get them to do!!

Interesting you should bring him up, currently in the process of doing my ERACA (Used to be the Level 3 Coaching Award). We were given a video of Gleeson to watch around attack etc. Whatsapp chat group Im in made up of 25 or so doing the ERACA all said it was utter rubbish. Stuff he was talking of was low level things that we already knew. Scott Wisemantel on the other hand has produced videos around attack during the pandemic that were absolutely mind blowing, page after page of notes and screenshots. I dont know why Wisey left but the attacks gone downhill rapidly since.

He wanted to return back to Oz to be with family. He was also getting annoyed at being called Wisey.

[Banquo]

Here is where I disagree heartily - it is the time to have *more* structure. Sides with great speed or great power can afford be more unstructured, because they can outrun or overpower issues and can get themselves out of trouble with individual prowess. Sides like us cannot afford to have no structure, because otherwise you get situations like last night, where players got tackled on the gainline because they weren't powerful or fast enough to make a dent and no-one was in support (or quick enough to get there or powerful enough to shift a set jackaller) so you had an instant turnover Mediocrity requires structure to be good.

Puja

Happy to disagree, and note I said a little less structure (and indeed said I didn't think what he was doing was right), not the overly structured pre-programmed approach he had before. And as said repeatedly, they are doing it badly. He thinks if we play with structure, we will fail in attack, as defences line us up too easily, as we have no power or pace; he's trying something that doesn't look like it works, and I think he's trying to see what Smith makes of it all- and its a bit unfair.
I assume you didn't mean tackled at the gainline, because that's not so bad (did you mean behind the tackle line?), and actually we did make some better dents than other games, but as you say in the 1st half let down by support and support decision making; but that's more getting used to the way we played, as shown second half. He's trying to make a limited set of players do more, and I think we both agree that they aren't up to it. So you can settle for being limited and eke out results, or be ambitious and struggle. I think he has it wrong- for the 5th time- but understand the rationale.

How about the quality players question?

I think, while we have some significant weak spots, we're not lacking quality players. We've got Lions test front row players, Itoje, Curry, Underhill, May and Watson can all be world class in the right side, you're aware of my opinion of Ford, and there's a lot of potential in Quirke, Mitchell, Smith, Marchant and Steward. We're not short on talent - we bemoan the lack of quality in our centres, but Chris Harris was about our 10th choice centre when he was poached and Scotland have made something out of him. We're not especially devoid of talent; we're just failing to make good use out of what we do have.

Puja

I think we disagree on what (top) quality looks like then, and even then about a third of the side is missing...in fairness, I should have said top quality. We do have a lot of good to very good players, and I've never disagreed that we don't usually make the most of them.

[Banquo]

It would be fascinating to have a new head coach and see who he retained, dumped or promoted.

Would anybody but Jones rate Ewels for example? Would Slade remain in favour?

What of Youngs, Randall, Smith, Marchant, Daly, Farrell or Ford? There are alternatives to all of them.

What about Lawes at 6?

Just how many are Jones favourites but would not be his successor's?

We say that there is nobody better but in terms of the starting XV there could be quite a few changes - even 10, say.

There would be quite a few changes if all were fit anyway, but frankly it all looks a bit interchangeable with not much change in quality, esp in the backs.

Jonesy is on your page though

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60810339
And then I look at my sheet here - 11 players that we haven't been able to use that are all highly qualified and senior international players - about five or six of them are Lions players.

[Spiffy]

Good discussion thread re. England's current problems with plenty of informed content.
The fans clearly see what's what, but does the coach?
Despite his coaching record, may Jones just lack real, deep rugby intelligence?
Has he problems in recognizing the bleedin obvious, never mind the subtle stuff? (Let alone doing something about it.)
He has tinkered about with selection and tactics in the way of a bloke just blundering about and hoping to hit on something that might work.
Meantime the RFU just keeps on giving him votes of approval.

[Oakboy]

It would be fascinating to have a new head coach and see who he retained, dumped or promoted.

Would anybody but Jones rate Ewels for example? Would Slade remain in favour?

What of Youngs, Randall, Smith, Marchant, Daly, Farrell or Ford? There are alternatives to all of them.

What about Lawes at 6?

Just how many are Jones favourites but would not be his successor's?

We say that there is nobody better but in terms of the starting XV there could be quite a few changes - even 10, say.

There would be quite a few changes if all were fit anyway, but frankly it all looks a bit interchangeable with not much change in quality, esp in the backs.

Jonesy is on your page though

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60810339
And then I look at my sheet here - 11 players that we haven't been able to use that are all highly qualified and senior international players - about five or six of them are Lions players.

Frankly, the RFU must be in cloud-cuckoo-land to give Jones a ringing endorsement. I'd love to hear what the signs of progress within 'a clear strategy' are.

Can you get to 11 players missing? Farrell, Watson, LCD, Hill, Tuilagi, May, Curry . . . Who are the other 4? The likes of Coka can't count, surely. Launchbury, Willis and Barbeary have been in camp and not selected. Underhill came back in. LCD was in the squad, as was Tuilagi (broken in camp).

Injuries are just part of the game.

In any case, were all the missing ones first choice?

[Banquo]

It would be fascinating to have a new head coach and see who he retained, dumped or promoted.

Would anybody but Jones rate Ewels for example? Would Slade remain in favour?

What of Youngs, Randall, Smith, Marchant, Daly, Farrell or Ford? There are alternatives to all of them.

What about Lawes at 6?

Just how many are Jones favourites but would not be his successor's?

We say that there is nobody better but in terms of the starting XV there could be quite a few changes - even 10, say.

There would be quite a few changes if all were fit anyway, but frankly it all looks a bit interchangeable with not much change in quality, esp in the backs.

Jonesy is on your page though

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60810339
And then I look at my sheet here - 11 players that we haven't been able to use that are all highly qualified and senior international players - about five or six of them are Lions players.

Frankly, the RFU must be in cloud-cuckoo-land to give Jones a ringing endorsement. I'd love to hear what the signs of progress within 'a clear strategy' are.

Can you get to 11 players missing? Farrell, Watson, LCD, Hill, Tuilagi, May, Curry . . . Who are the other 4? The likes of Coka can't count, surely. Launchbury, Willis and Barbeary have been in camp and not selected. Underhill came back in. LCD was in the squad, as was Tuilagi (broken in camp).

Injuries are just part of the game.

In any case, were all the missing ones first choice?

I was struggling with 11 tbh got to 8 myself inc Manu. Kenningham?

I'd think most of us would go....who be I missing? Chessum, T Willis, erm...must be someone obvious. Kenningham maybe. I wonder if Mako and Billy might come back into contention.
Marler/Genge
LCD/George
Sinckler/Stuart
Itoje/Isiekwe
Hill/Launchbury
Lawes/Curry/Barbeary
Underhill/Willis J
Simmonds/Dombrandt
?/?
Ford/Smith
May/Daly/Nowell
Manu/...aaaaarghhh
Marchant/Slade
Watson/Someone-OHC, Radwan, Lynagh
Steward/Malins

[morepork]

I can't believe that this is essentially the team that gave us such an emphatic reaming in a world cup semi two and a half years ago.

It’s clearly not though. From that semi 3 starters in the pack and 1 in the back line started tonight.

Same coach, with the same mandate. Same environment.

[morepork]

Firstly, France are bloody marvellous to watch. Have ability to change gear and step up at key points. Very much the signs of a WC winning side. Class.

Us, well, we play exactly like a side trying too hard to try and compete. Where France have cohesion and control we have frantic and poor execution. We complicate when we need simplicity, we stick to a plan when we should be playing what is in front of us.

The pack lacks that ‘something’, be it simply Curry working with the outstanding Underhill or a nasty lock, whatever it is we made it easy for France. 9 & 10 became more a problem than a problem solver and as good as Steward was we still sacrificed an out and out flier in an attempt to try and stop France winning rather than to play to win

Players take some stick but wtf is Gleeson trying to get them to do!!

Interesting you should bring him up, currently in the process of doing my ERACA (Used to be the Level 3 Coaching Award). We were given a video of Gleeson to watch around attack etc. Whatsapp chat group Im in made up of 25 or so doing the ERACA all said it was utter rubbish. Stuff he was talking of was low level things that we already knew. Scott Wisemantel on the other hand has produced videos around attack during the pandemic that were absolutely mind blowing, page after page of notes and screenshots. I dont know why Wisey left but the attacks gone downhill rapidly since.

He seems....unsophisticated:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... -world-cup

Gleeson can also offer some useful perspective if and when tough times materialise, having had to build a coaching career in the wake of several off-field issues including a suspension for breaking betting rules in 2004 and a doping ban while he was a Hull FC player in 2011. Gleeson and others tested positive for a banned stimulant in an energy supplement they believed had been checked and approved for use by the club.

Almost all of England's attacking plays yesterday looked like a hail Mary "kick on the 5th tackle" league action.

[Freddo]

There would be quite a few changes if all were fit anyway, but frankly it all looks a bit interchangeable with not much change in quality, esp in the backs.

Jonesy is on your page though

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60810339
And then I look at my sheet here - 11 players that we haven't been able to use that are all highly qualified and senior international players - about five or six of them are Lions players.

Frankly, the RFU must be in cloud-cuckoo-land to give Jones a ringing endorsement. I'd love to hear what the signs of progress within 'a clear strategy' are.

Can you get to 11 players missing? Farrell, Watson, LCD, Hill, Tuilagi, May, Curry . . . Who are the other 4? The likes of Coka can't count, surely. Launchbury, Willis and Barbeary have been in camp and not selected. Underhill came back in. LCD was in the squad, as was Tuilagi (broken in camp).

Injuries are just part of the game.

In any case, were all the missing ones first choice?

Maybe the 11 is a combination of players who have not been available for all the games? I doubt he is including them but Lawrence, Obano, Odogwu have all been unavailable as well and have been in previous squads.

I suppose if you look at the backs then our first choice 11, 12, 13 and 14 were unavailable in May, Farrell, Manu and Watson.

[FKAS]

I can't believe that this is essentially the team that gave us such an emphatic reaming in a world cup semi two and a half years ago.

It’s clearly not though. From that semi 3 starters in the pack and 1 in the back line started tonight.

Same coach, with the same mandate. Same environment.

The assistant coaches have all changed, it might be a different environment now. Eddie isn't going to be able to oversee every little thing the assistant coaches are going to be helping to set the environment and how things are working as well.

[Banquo]

Frankly, the RFU must be in cloud-cuckoo-land to give Jones a ringing endorsement. I'd love to hear what the signs of progress within 'a clear strategy' are.

Can you get to 11 players missing? Farrell, Watson, LCD, Hill, Tuilagi, May, Curry . . . Who are the other 4? The likes of Coka can't count, surely. Launchbury, Willis and Barbeary have been in camp and not selected. Underhill came back in. LCD was in the squad, as was Tuilagi (broken in camp).

Injuries are just part of the game.

In any case, were all the missing ones first choice?

Maybe the 11 is a combination of players who have not been available for all the games? I doubt he is including them but Lawrence, Obano, Odogwu have all been unavailable as well and have been in previous squads.

I suppose if you look at the backs then our first choice 11, 12, 13 and 14 were unavailable in May, Farrell, Manu and Watson.

Lawrence and Obano maybe so. And yes on the backs.

[Puja]

Firstly, France are bloody marvellous to watch. Have ability to change gear and step up at key points. Very much the signs of a WC winning side. Class.

Us, well, we play exactly like a side trying too hard to try and compete. Where France have cohesion and control we have frantic and poor execution. We complicate when we need simplicity, we stick to a plan when we should be playing what is in front of us.

The pack lacks that ‘something’, be it simply Curry working with the outstanding Underhill or a nasty lock, whatever it is we made it easy for France. 9 & 10 became more a problem than a problem solver and as good as Steward was we still sacrificed an out and out flier in an attempt to try and stop France winning rather than to play to win

Players take some stick but wtf is Gleeson trying to get them to do!!

Interesting you should bring him up, currently in the process of doing my ERACA (Used to be the Level 3 Coaching Award). We were given a video of Gleeson to watch around attack etc. Whatsapp chat group Im in made up of 25 or so doing the ERACA all said it was utter rubbish. Stuff he was talking of was low level things that we already knew. Scott Wisemantel on the other hand has produced videos around attack during the pandemic that were absolutely mind blowing, page after page of notes and screenshots. I dont know why Wisey left but the attacks gone downhill rapidly since.

He seems....unsophisticated:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... -world-cup

Gleeson can also offer some useful perspective if and when tough times materialise, having had to build a coaching career in the wake of several off-field issues including a suspension for breaking betting rules in 2004 and a doping ban while he was a Hull FC player in 2011. Gleeson and others tested positive for a banned stimulant in an energy supplement they believed had been checked and approved for use by the club.

Almost all of England's attacking plays yesterday looked like a hail Mary "kick on the 5th tackle" league action.

That would explain why, every time we made a break, nobody ever resourced the next ruck. Presumably we were waiting for the tackled player to hump the ground and then play the ball.

Puja

[I R Geech]

Good discussion thread re. England's current problems with plenty of informed content.
The fans clearly see what's what, but does the coach?
Despite his coaching record, may Jones just lack real, deep rugby intelligence?
Has he problems in recognizing the bleedin obvious, never mind the subtle stuff? (Let alone doing something about it.)
He has tinkered about with selection and tactics in the way of a bloke just blundering about and hoping to hit on something that might work.
Meantime the RFU just keeps on giving him votes of approval.

At this point I think that it’s more to do with deep flaws in his personality than in his knowledge.

[fivepointer]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson has lost faith in Jones and i'm sure there are others in the media who would agree.

I think he's safe for now. The RFU arent going for the nuclear option just yet but what happens if we get badly beaten by Australia in the summer?

[twitchy]

Brian Moore in the tele:




There was little doubt in most people’s minds that France would beat England on Saturday. As it turned out, everybody got it right. England never really came close to upsetting the tournament’s form team.

It was surprising England stayed in touch in the first half and briefly looked like they might turn the momentum. The truth was that had France not been profligate, they could have scored another three tries in the first 40 minutes.

It was only a matter of time before they corrected their wastefulness and the talismanic Antoine Dupont put his mark in the history books. He scurried through a gap near the breakdown and, with that, France were home and free.

This is no more than they deserve. Their steady and methodical progress under Fabien Galthie and Raphael Ibanez has been a revelation. Add the blunt discipline instilled by Shaun Edwards and you have a potent brew. This process started with the brilliance of several under-20 teams and the systematic exploitation of that talent.

Yet how is it that a country as large and economically powerful as France has had to wait for over a decade to claim this prize?

Every major international team have a “golden generation” where a critical mass of talent is born and, if their system spots, selects and develops it, they have a serious chance of carrying off rugby’s major prize. You have a better chance of this happening if you are a country with more players, but that alone does not guarantee success.

In this cycle, England just do not have the same talent as other teams do. When you look at the current crop of available England players, can you honestly say you can select a different starting squad of sufficiently talented, experienced, in-form and fit players who would be the equal of the French and potential world-beaters?

Leaving aside Eddie Jones’s bewildering selection of players out of their usual positions; accounting for unavailability through injury or stupidity; ignoring a club v country conundrum – can you?

No, you cannot.

Jones is one of the most successful England coaches in history. I believe that in the last World Cup England’s stars aligned, as far as they ever do, and they fell at the last fence.

I cannot see where a winning squad could have come from and apportioning blame is difficult. You can look at the academy system, which leaves a raft of players not playing more than a handful of games per season. You can ask whether Premiership clubs rely too heavily on imported talent. But the raw material is just not there.

Where Jones the coach is responsible is that he has not made the necessary tough calls. No country have won a World Cup with fewer than around 700 caps in their starting XV. Whatever team Jones picks he cannot fulfil that basic requirement. It was his job to choose between highly-capped players and nascent talent and now, with just 14 games until the World Cup, it is clear he has erred.

However glittering his pomp, Ben Youngs does not now provide the tempo supplied by Harry Randall. The same can be said of other players – and this is damning. Whatever players have not been available, it cannot excuse the failure to identify preferred units and stick with preferred players, allowing them at least familiarity.

Jones’s avowed claim that he wants players who can play without regard to the number on their back is ill-conceived. You want players to be able to do what is required and when, but that is different from choosing players in any old position and thinking they can perform as if they were in settled units. You cannot point to any historically successful side where it has been so. England will go into 2023 with limited hope.

[Oakboy]

The simple conclusion remains, accepting that we do not have droves of world-beaters: Jones is not even close to maximising the resources that he does have.

One obvious question still needs answering. If our players are of limited ability in terms of top international standards why consider fancy, complicated set-ups before mastering the basics?

In terms of the RFU sticking with him, where are the clear signs of improvement that nobody else can see? What grounds are there for trusting him to get it right in the dozen or so games remaining to the RWC if he's just lost 60% of his competitive matches two years running.

[Mellsblue]

In this cycle, England just do not have the same talent as other teams do. When you look at the current crop of available England players, can you honestly say you can select a different starting squad of sufficiently talented, experienced, in-form and fit players who would be the equal of the French and potential world-beaters?

A) Has anyone ever seen Moore and Banquo in the same room?
B) Moore is spot on with that entire piece, I’d suggest.

[Mikey Brown]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson has lost faith in Jones and i'm sure there are others in the media who would agree.

I think he's safe for now. The RFU arent going for the nuclear option just yet but what happens if we get badly beaten by Australia in the summer?

Jesus, that guy is in to his cringey word play isn’t he?

Even Australia might think they can beat us? Wow. Didn’t they beat SA and NZ last year?

[Oakboy]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson has lost faith in Jones and i'm sure there are others in the media who would agree.

I think he's safe for now. The RFU arent going for the nuclear option just yet but what happens if we get badly beaten by Australia in the summer?

I seem to recall Jones spouting off about it being a test if we looked at the three matches remaining in KO terms. He barely scraped through the QF and lost in the SF to fail dismally in the challenge that HE set for HIS team. Maybe, the blazers are still drunk on the waves of emotion at Twickenham with the crowd getting behind the heroic 14.

[Oakboy]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson has lost faith in Jones and i'm sure there are others in the media who would agree.

I think he's safe for now. The RFU arent going for the nuclear option just yet but what happens if we get badly beaten by Australia in the summer?

Jesus, that guy is in to his cringey word play isn’t he?

Even Australia might think they can beat us? Wow. Didn’t they beat SA and NZ last year?

Even we beat SA! Shame about Scotland, Ireland and France. What do you think would be a reasonable return from three matches against Australia? Just asking.

[32nd Man]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson has lost faith in Jones and i'm sure there are others in the media who would agree.

I think he's safe for now. The RFU arent going for the nuclear option just yet but what happens if we get badly beaten by Australia in the summer?

Jesus, that guy is in to his cringey word play isn’t he?

Even Australia might think they can beat us? Wow. Didn’t they beat SA and NZ last year?

Even we beat SA! Shame about Scotland, Ireland and France. What do you think would be a reasonable return from three matches against Australia? Just asking.

This kind of depends on what sort of squad he can pick from.

If we took our strongest squad, without injuries, you'd be wanting 2 or 3 wins still, as, though they're improving they still struggle with our strengths.

However there is a strong argument that the guys who toured with the Lions should probably get the summer off, and there will be plenty of players missing through fatigue injuries following the playoffs and final. So he may well end up with a majority 2nd and 3rd choice squad and, posturing on here about only grand slams / clean sweeps possibly bring acceptable aside, that sort of depleted touring party will do well to keep it close in all 3 and maybe sneak one.

[Oakboy]

Jesus, that guy is in to his cringey word play isn’t he?

Even Australia might think they can beat us? Wow. Didn’t they beat SA and NZ last year?

Even we beat SA! Shame about Scotland, Ireland and France. What do you think would be a reasonable return from three matches against Australia? Just asking.

This kind of depends on what sort of squad he can pick from.

If we took our strongest squad, without injuries, you'd be wanting 2 or 3 wins still, as, though they're improving they still struggle with our strengths.

However there is a strong argument that the guys who toured with the Lions should probably get the summer off, and there will be plenty of players missing through fatigue injuries following the playoffs and final. So he may well end up with a majority 2nd and 3rd choice squad and, posturing on here about only grand slams / clean sweeps possibly bring acceptable aside, that sort of depleted touring party will do well to keep it close in all 3 and maybe sneak one.

That assumes that Australia will be at full strength??

[Banquo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson has lost faith in Jones and i'm sure there are others in the media who would agree.

I think he's safe for now. The RFU arent going for the nuclear option just yet but what happens if we get badly beaten by Australia in the summer?

I seem to recall Jones spouting off about it being a test if we looked at the three matches remaining in KO terms. He barely scraped through the QF and lost in the SF to fail dismally in the challenge that HE set for HIS team. Maybe, the blazers are still drunk on the waves of emotion at Twickenham with the crowd getting behind the heroic 14.

Out of interest, why do you keep calling the leaders at Twickenham 'blazers'- they are the polar opposite of the folks who used to run the RFU pre pro era.

[p/d]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson has lost faith in Jones and i'm sure there are others in the media who would agree.

I think he's safe for now. The RFU arent going for the nuclear option just yet but what happens if we get badly beaten by Australia in the summer?

I seem to recall Jones spouting off about it being a test if we looked at the three matches remaining in KO terms. He barely scraped through the QF and lost in the SF to fail dismally in the challenge that HE set for HIS team. Maybe, the blazers are still drunk on the waves of emotion at Twickenham with the crowd getting behind the heroic 14.

Out of interest, why do you keep calling the leaders at Twickenham 'blazers'- they are the polar opposite of the folks who used to run the RFU pre pro era.

Squash, racketball, pipe smoker, thick cord - smart & casual - Dors is a man of discerning taste. Not one to deem trackies a suitable modern day alternative to an Austin Reed ensemble