Worcester v Newcastle Sat 3pm

[fivepointer]

Worcester: Heward; Hearle, Morris, Beck, van der Merwe; Smith, Simpson; Sutherland, Annett, Judge, Batley, Kitchener, Hatherell, Hill (capt), Vailanu

Replacements: Miller, Waller, McCallum, Clegg, Forsythe, Chudley, Searle, Humphreys

Newcastle: Penny; Radwan, Wacokecoke, Burrell, Carreras; Connon, Schreuder; Brocklebank, McGuigan, Davison, Peterson, Robinson, Basham, Welch (capt), Lockwood

Replacements: Blamire, Cooper, Tampin, Fuser, Farrar, Nordli-Kelemeti, Haydon-Wood, Stevenson

Not the most glamorous of fixtures this weekend but in deciding who ends up in 13th place this could be an important game.

[Mellsblue]

Blimey. I had a Newcastle win on Superbru but not by that margin.

[fivepointer]

Quite a stuffing. Wuss had been improving and i didnt expect this result.

[FKAS]

That's quite a strong Wuss team, they won't be happy to take a stuffing like that. On the flip side Dean Richards needed a good result to quell the unrest amongst the Falcons support, this might help a little.

[Mellsblue]

On the flip side Dean Richards needed a good result to quell the unrest amongst the Falcons support, this might help a little.

Is there unrest? Hadn’t heard anything from my limited contacts.

[FKAS]

On the flip side Dean Richards needed a good result to quell the unrest amongst the Falcons support, this might help a little.

Is there unrest? Hadn’t heard anything from my limited contacts.

I've got a limited sample but they are all becoming fed up with Dean's inability to move the club forward. Small periods of success followed by months of awful results. The signings tend to be punts with journeyman a favourite at the expense of young talent. I think they see Borthwick and Skivington doing rebuilds and want in on the action.

[Mellsblue]

On the flip side Dean Richards needed a good result to quell the unrest amongst the Falcons support, this might help a little.

Is there unrest? Hadn’t heard anything from my limited contacts.

I've got a limited sample but they are all becoming fed up with Dean's inability to move the club forward. Small periods of success followed by months of awful results. The signings tend to be punts with journeyman a favourite at the expense of young talent. I think they see Borthwick and Skivington doing rebuilds and want in on the action.

It’s a strange take. There’s plenty of local talent, I count 13 in today’s 23, and a widely communicated policy for there to be so. The owner has burnt through millions in the past 5ish years and beyond him there isn’t any money to pay anyone other than journeymen.

[FKAS]

The local kids are being played or given chance mainly due to injuries though I think the anti Dean sentiment is a bit on the harsh side though if Newcastle do have ambitions now is the time to gamble what with their being little chance of relegation and most of their rivals doing likewise. The Falcons academy is certainly churning them out, the lack of budget is always likely to be a hindrance but any coach that gets them punching at least mid way up the league should be able to hold on to most of the best talent generated from the academy. A bit of clever business here and there to flesh out the squad and they could target top 8.

The game plan at Falcons is somewhat limited and the set piece mediocre, in the right hands they could perhaps achieve more though Dean Richards does provide a good level of consistency and has done for some time.

[Mellsblue]

They’re utterly skint and have a open philosophy that they want to build with local players. The idea that local players are in the team solely due to injury is not true. Not sure what else you’d want from them. When Richards had a competitive budget, massively subsidised by the owner, he had a competitive team. The owner will no longer throw money at the club so having ‘gamble’ is not going to happen.

[FKAS]

Mulipola, van de Walt, Gary Graham, Carl Fearns, Earle and Brown would have been in the team at the expense of local talent had they been fit. Nearly half a team of average players who would normally start under Dean but for injury and aren't from the academy. Not many would pick up Prem contracts if they were released and to be honest I'm unsure how van de Walt still has one.

[Mellsblue]

Mulipola is very much second choice (in a front row heavily stocked with local talent), ditto van de Walt. The club have just declined Brown’s +1 year. Graham and Fearns are above average if on the decline. Earle has been in rotation with two academy players.
Regardless, injuries are a fact of life and they’ve just fielded a XXIII with over 50% being home grown. Off the field they’re very open that they can’t afford to sign even a handful of top tier players and now have a policy of building through local talent and supplementing with vfm SH and aging players.

[FKAS]

You say they are second choice but most if not all would be in the 23 if they were fit. That's why the Falcons fans I know get annoyed. Admittedly they are a little over optimistic on what the academy lads can achieve but I suppose you'd rather lose with local lads than average players from elsewhere.

I'm not sure they'll ever push on past the steady consistency they have currently under Dean unless they change coach. Changing coach is a big risk though.

[Mellsblue]

I obviously disagree over who is first choice and a lot of those players have been brought in primarily for their experience to help along the young academy players. The Falcons fans you know probably need to realise the financial situation their club is in. This argument that their club only brings in average journey men is a red herring as that’s all they can afford unless the owner, who has lent the club circa £20m, has a change of heart. They had two seasons of reduced income - one in the Champ (well, half a season as the 19/20 season was cancelled during covid) and then the covid affected 20/21 season - and the finances are screwed.

[fivepointer]

Losing and playing dull rugby without giving young players a chance is at the root of some discontent. Newcastle have scored fewer points than anyone in the Prem, equal fewest tries (46) and TBP's (2). Some of their play can be called a bit "stodgy"
I sense that this is changing. There does seem to be more home grown and younger players getting game time and a bit more desire to play with greater tempo and ambition.
Maybe yesterday's result will be the impetus to a strong end of season.

[Banquo]

I obviously disagree over who is first choice and a lot of those players have been brought in primarily for their experience to help along the young academy players. The Falcons fans you know probably need to realise the financial situation their club is in. This argument that their club only brings in average journey men is a red herring as that’s all they can afford unless the owner, who has lent the club circa £20m, has a change of heart. They had two seasons of reduced income - one in the Champ (well, half a season as the 19/20 season was cancelled during covid) and then the covid affected 20/21 season - and the finances are screwed.

well this. How can fans expect more without cash?? All very well for these well heeled Tigers fans

[FKAS]

I obviously disagree over who is first choice and a lot of those players have been brought in primarily for their experience to help along the young academy players. The Falcons fans you know probably need to realise the financial situation their club is in. This argument that their club only brings in average journey men is a red herring as that’s all they can afford unless the owner, who has lent the club circa £20m, has a change of heart. They had two seasons of reduced income - one in the Champ (well, half a season as the 19/20 season was cancelled during covid) and then the covid affected 20/21 season - and the finances are screwed.

well this. How can fans expect more without cash?? All very well for these well heeled Tigers fans

Tigers are self generating in terms of day to day running. No wealthy owner writing cheques.

Kundi the owner at Falcons has done a good job mainly keeping the books balanced at Falcons. Relegations have hurt them cash wise and so did Covid.

Re average players being all they can afford that's simply not true. Every season other clubs go and find good quality in the Championship, the BUCS league, South Africa etc all on a budget. There's talent out there Falcons just don't seem great at finding it. You also can't blame the fans from wanting a bit more whilst the team has so much home grown talent, Diamond was in a similar spot with Sale before the buy out and he managed more.

[Banquo]

I obviously disagree over who is first choice and a lot of those players have been brought in primarily for their experience to help along the young academy players. The Falcons fans you know probably need to realise the financial situation their club is in. This argument that their club only brings in average journey men is a red herring as that’s all they can afford unless the owner, who has lent the club circa £20m, has a change of heart. They had two seasons of reduced income - one in the Champ (well, half a season as the 19/20 season was cancelled during covid) and then the covid affected 20/21 season - and the finances are screwed.

well this. How can fans expect more without cash?? All very well for these well heeled Tigers fans

Tigers are self generating in terms of day to day running. No wealthy owner writing cheques.

That's the point. Tigers are well heeled, Falcons are not- and you appear to not understand why. Mind, its only recently Tigers have bothered to look to develop players rather than import them and breach salary caps

[Mellsblue]

I obviously disagree over who is first choice and a lot of those players have been brought in primarily for their experience to help along the young academy players. The Falcons fans you know probably need to realise the financial situation their club is in. This argument that their club only brings in average journey men is a red herring as that’s all they can afford unless the owner, who has lent the club circa £20m, has a change of heart. They had two seasons of reduced income - one in the Champ (well, half a season as the 19/20 season was cancelled during covid) and then the covid affected 20/21 season - and the finances are screwed.

well this. How can fans expect more without cash?? All very well for these well heeled Tigers fans

Tigers are self generating in terms of day to day running. No wealthy owner writing cheques.

Kundi the owner at Falcons has done a good job mainly keeping the books balanced at Falcons. Relegations have hurt them cash wise and so did Covid.

Re average players being all they can afford that's simply not true. Every season other clubs go and find good quality in the Championship, the BUCS league, South Africa etc all on a budget. There's talent out there Falcons just don't seem great at finding it. You also can't blame the fans from wanting a bit more whilst the team has so much home grown talent, Diamond was in a similar spot with Sale before the buy out and he managed more.

As per my previous post, Kurdi has ‘balanced’ the books simply by ‘lending’ the club £20mil. The point about a relegation season and covid hurting was also in my previous post and contradicts your point about how they should be targeting better players, ie they are uniquely skint.
Champ and BUCS players come in to supplement a team, certainly initially, rather than be top end players, which is what you’re saying Newcastle need whilst I’m saying they can’t afford them. Who are these legions of Champ and BUCS players that have come in and been top end Prem talent?

[FKAS]

Tigers lost something like a million a month over the closed Covid period. £20m injection over 11 years with two relegations and the Covid closedown, depending on what other financing Falcons have that could actually be not that bad at all. Bristol and Bath owe significant amounts to their owner as well but don't cut their cloth like Falcons do. You won't find any rugby club that has rosy financials.

I think Falcons have some fairly top end talent generated from their academy, the issue is their inability to create a team for them to work in currently. Dombrandt, Northmore, Steward and Kelly all went from regular BUCS rugby to first team quickly. Hatherall, Dolly, Frost, Hislop amongst others were all in the Championship last season (iirc) and are now doing well in first teams. There's ability out there and Newcastle are generating their own, big signings aren't what they need.

Some savvy signings and a coach that could identify and build a strength for them to work off would make a difference. You look at Glaws under Skivington, he came in and gave them a lineout a solid foundation they have then started building the rest of the their game off but they know if the game isn't going there way the lineout and rolling maul is a go to. Same with Tigers and Borthwick though he meshed that with a safety first tactical kicking game. You look at Falcons, where's the strength? Where's the go to in their game when they are under pressure? They could do something similar the lineout could be a feature but their rolling maul game is weak. Their kicking game a bit old fashioned, defence isn't good and attack vague.

[Banquo]

You won't find any rugby club that has rosy financials.

.

Really? What a shock.

[Mellsblue]

That’s £20mil just from the owner. If you think Newcastle havent bigger financial difficulties than almost any other club then I don’t see the point in taking that one any further.
Dombrandt is an outlier and Northmore may become one but, to the best of knowledge, still wouldn’t be considered first choice at Quins. Steward has been in the Leicester academy since u18 and was on loan at Loughborough Students who play in the fourth tier of English rugby… they aren’t really BUCS. Kelly is also an outlier but played in Sale Academy and for Ireland u20s so, like Steward, isn’t particularly a product of the BUCS system.
None of Hatherall, Dolly, Frost and Hislop would really improve Newcastle.
Gloucester/Leicester and Newcastle are not comparable as clubs in any facet.
I’ll leave it now as we will not agree.