Clermont Vs Tigers

[Puja]

Lee is also coming forwards. It’s a pretty harsh outcome as in no way is either player intent on contacting each other. It’s not like a hit on a dummy runner, it’s simply a collision of two players not looking at each other.

If neither is looking at each other and accidentally collide then it’s pretty harsh to say one is at fault purely because one team has the ball.

Lee is coming forwards, but he's coming at a much lower speed and is not doing anything unexpected - he's in an attacking line, looking at the pass that might be coming to him. Potter on the other hand has made the decision to leap up ahead of the Leicester defensive line. He's moving faster, but more importantly, he's the one making an active decision to do something. That makes it his fault because the collision wouldn't have happened if he'd not rushed up.

If Potter had been in the defensive line and Lee had rushed up on a hard dummy line and the same collision had happened, then I'd've said it was Lee's fault.

It does *feel* unfair and it's not like it's going to be an encouragement to better tackle technique because it was a freak collision that had nothing to do with a tackle. But I'd still say it is a correct red.

Puja

[Banquo]

Great win- fair play to Tigers and Borthwick. Chessum could be a star

[FKAS]

Is ‘running forwards while looking sideways’ on a rugby field now considered reckless or dangerous? What’s the coaching point? What behaviour are we trying prevent?

This. There’s absolutely no leeway for the fact it’s a game of millimetres played at break neck (excuse the unfortunate terminology) speed.
There’s definitely a bias towards what’s good PR rather than what’s sensible with the (application of the) new laws.
I suppose the coaching point must be play slower/passive in d and allow the attacking team an advantage.

I doubt that'll be Borthwick's takeaway. I'm sure he'll work with Sinfield and Smith on getting Porter to expand his vision of the situation. What he did was good because it shut the pass to the outside but a little more positional awareness as he does it comes with experience at this level.

Hopefully it's decided the on field red is deemed sufficient punishment as it was accidental as opposed to reckless or malicious.

Banquo, yeah Chessum came out of pre season a different player. Last season he was popular with fans because of his mobility and work rate but was seen as a handy squad player. The physicality and extra size he's brought into this season has made him a different prospect altogether. Borthwick's a fan because he's a grafter on the training ground. If he keeps developing then he should be a mainstay at lock for Tigers for a long time yet. He looked entirely comfortable against that big Clermont pack.

[Mellsblue]

Is ‘running forwards while looking sideways’ on a rugby field now considered reckless or dangerous? What’s the coaching point? What behaviour are we trying prevent?

This. There’s absolutely no leeway for the fact it’s a game of millimetres played at break neck (excuse the unfortunate terminology) speed.
There’s definitely a bias towards what’s good PR rather than what’s sensible with the (application of the) new laws.
I suppose the coaching point must be play slower/passive in d and allow the attacking team an advantage.

I doubt that'll be Borthwick's takeaway.

It was completely and utterly tongue in cheek.

[FKAS]

This. There’s absolutely no leeway for the fact it’s a game of millimetres played at break neck (excuse the unfortunate terminology) speed.
There’s definitely a bias towards what’s good PR rather than what’s sensible with the (application of the) new laws.
I suppose the coaching point must be play slower/passive in d and allow the attacking team an advantage.

I doubt that'll be Borthwick's takeaway.

It was completely and utterly tongue in cheek.

[francoisfou]

JvP had an accomplished game but doesn't appear to be on Eddie's shortlist. A few more matches like this one should see him on the plane to Australia in the summer.

[FKAS]

JvP had an accomplished game but doesn't appear to be on Eddie's shortlist. A few more matches like this one should see him on the plane to Australia in the summer.

Very much so. JVP showed the maturity we've been waiting for. The little sniping try is exactly the thing we'd have expected from him but the levels of control he showed haven't been there consistently. He looked confident and composed though, as did all the team. Hopefully he gets a crack at them at WR to show back to back performances.

[twitchy]

I felt that hit on steward.

I think the older I get the more I wince at that stuff.

[francoisfou]

JvP had an accomplished game but doesn't appear to be on Eddie's shortlist. A few more matches like this one should see him on the plane to Australia in the summer.

Very much so. JVP showed the maturity we've been waiting for. The little sniping try is exactly the thing we'd have expected from him but the levels of control he showed haven't been there consistently. He looked confident and composed though, as did all the team. Hopefully he gets a crack at them at WR to show back to back performances.

I hope so too, as I'm coming over for this game!

[Mikey Brown]

Is ‘running forwards while looking sideways’ on a rugby field now considered reckless or dangerous? What’s the coaching point? What behaviour are we trying prevent?

This. There’s absolutely no leeway for the fact it’s a game of millimetres played at break neck (excuse the unfortunate terminology) speed.
There’s definitely a bias towards what’s good PR rather than what’s sensible with the (application of the) new laws.
I suppose the coaching point must be play slower/passive in d and allow the attacking team an advantage.

Hopefully it's decided the on field red is deemed sufficient punishment as it was accidental as opposed to reckless or malicious.

Does this ever happen? That often feels like the fair outcome for those unfortunate reds (thought the same of VDM’s botched handoff during the 6N too) but it seems the impact on the game itself is disregarded when it comes to bans?

That’s just a feeling and I have no evidence to back it up, but it does seem like it makes the gulf between these sorts of incidents and the numerous headshots that have been missed in-game in the last few weeks (and don’t get cited) feel even larger.

[FKAS]

This. There’s absolutely no leeway for the fact it’s a game of millimetres played at break neck (excuse the unfortunate terminology) speed.
There’s definitely a bias towards what’s good PR rather than what’s sensible with the (application of the) new laws.
I suppose the coaching point must be play slower/passive in d and allow the attacking team an advantage.

Hopefully it's decided the on field red is deemed sufficient punishment as it was accidental as opposed to reckless or malicious.

Does this ever happen? That often feels like the fair outcome for those unfortunate reds (thought the same of VDM’s botched handoff during the 6N too) but it seems the impact on the game itself is disregarded when it comes to bans?

That’s just a feeling and I have no evidence to back it up, but it does seem like it makes the gulf between these sorts of incidents and the numerous headshots that have been missed in-game in the last few weeks (and don’t get cited) feel even larger.

Very rarely. Kalamafoni I think got one of those this season but might be wrong there.

[Banquo]

Is ‘running forwards while looking sideways’ on a rugby field now considered reckless or dangerous? What’s the coaching point? What behaviour are we trying prevent?

This. There’s absolutely no leeway for the fact it’s a game of millimetres played at break neck (excuse the unfortunate terminology) speed.
There’s definitely a bias towards what’s good PR rather than what’s sensible with the (application of the) new laws.
I suppose the coaching point must be play slower/passive in d and allow the attacking team an advantage.

Banquo, yeah Chessum came out of pre season a different player. Last season he was popular with fans because of his mobility and work rate but was seen as a handy squad player. The physicality and extra size he's brought into this season has made him a different prospect altogether. Borthwick's a fan because he's a grafter on the training ground..

...well he is only 21 in fairness.

[Banquo]

JvP had an accomplished game but doesn't appear to be on Eddie's shortlist. A few more matches like this one should see him on the plane to Australia in the summer.

He's young, and until now has been carefully managed exposure wise. To FKAS point on consistency, that's tricky when you are being rotated with such inexperience.

[Puja]

JvP had an accomplished game but doesn't appear to be on Eddie's shortlist. A few more matches like this one should see him on the plane to Australia in the summer.

Far too early for him IMO. He's a good season behind Quirke and Mitchell in his development (not a criticism, because he is very young) and is still at the stage where he turns in very varying performances. Thought his box-kicking showed massive improvement though - I was only able to watch the second half, but never once worried he'd be charged down, which hasn't been the case with some of his previous technique.

Puja

[Raggs]

Not seen the game, but have seen the Porter incident. To me it feels like when someone gets taken out in the air, and the "tackler" tries to use the reasoning that they had their eyes on the ball. That stopped being a valid excuse a fair few seasons ago. Think it was Puja who said that Porter is the one making an active decision there, so in my mind, should be the one being "aware" of his surroundings as he charges up.

EDIT - That said, I don't know if it's red/yellow/ban/no ban etc.

[FKAS]

This. There’s absolutely no leeway for the fact it’s a game of millimetres played at break neck (excuse the unfortunate terminology) speed.
There’s definitely a bias towards what’s good PR rather than what’s sensible with the (application of the) new laws.
I suppose the coaching point must be play slower/passive in d and allow the attacking team an advantage.

Banquo, yeah Chessum came out of pre season a different player. Last season he was popular with fans because of his mobility and work rate but was seen as a handy squad player. The physicality and extra size he's brought into this season has made him a different prospect altogether. Borthwick's a fan because he's a grafter on the training ground..

...well he is only 21 in fairness.

That's true he's at an age where development and physical development are generally hoped for. The change was remarkable though, credit to him because he must have worked his arse off over the summer. Reaping the benefits now. I don't think there's many Tigers fans who wouldn't select him in the starting XV every week.

I'd expect Chessum to be on the summer tour and probably Heyes as well. As Puja says JDV is still ironing out bits of his game which considering his age is perfectly fine. He's making good progress, whether the trip to Australia is to early or not depends on what happens between now and the end of the season, if he keeps playing like he did Vs Clermont then it's not to early if we see a wobbly performance next time out then maybe another full pre season might be best. England are in need of 9s to step up, Youngs shouldn't and won't travel to Australia (even if Eddie wanted him to Ben will want to be close to family) and Randall just didn't offer the spark he was meant to. Quirke looked the business in the Autumn so you'd assume he'd be back in and then it's the race to join him.

Having watched the game back, Kelly might be slightly disappointed. Tigers left a few tries out there and two were due to slight errors by Kelly. I said before the game if he wants international recognition he needs to show more than hard lines and defensive skill. Well misquing the crossfield kick to Porter and then passing to the TJ instead of either Steward or Potter meant certain tries went begging. He needs to tighten up those skills, particularly because against what looks likely to be Leinster in the next round you don't get that many chances and you certainly don't at international level. Again though he's young he's got time.

[Puja]

Having watched the game back, Kelly might be slightly disappointed. Tigers left a few tries out there and two were due to slight errors by Kelly. I said before the game if he wants international recognition he needs to show more than hard lines and defensive skill. Well misquing the crossfield kick to Porter and then passing to the TJ instead of either Steward or Potter meant certain tries went begging. He needs to tighten up those skills, particularly because against what looks likely to be Leinster in the next round you don't get that many chances and you certainly don't at international level. Again though he's young he's got time.

Just managed to watch the game back myself and I think you're being a touch harsh. The cross-field kick was pretty solidly placed - if Porter had put on the afterburners, he'd have caught it on the full, and 7 times of 10 that bouncing ball doesn't kick sideways into touch. The pass was bad, granted.

I think the general quality of his passing does need to be noted as something exceptional that he's showing. Several times he was at 10 and delivered long, swift, accurate passes (off either hand) to Ford hiding in the midfield. The Saumaki try wouldn't have been scored if not for his crisp and accurate passing.

He wasn't outstanding, but he did do a very decent job against a big step up in opponent, which is not nothing.


Chessum, on the other hand, was ridiculous. Seemed like he was everywhere - constantly being the one making cover tackles out wide or being first man in support, as well as being the main lineout man and part of a decent scrum. I don't know whether an Itoje/Chessum partnership might lack a bit of grunt in the tight carrying, but I'd certainly be interested in seeing it tried.

Puja

[FKAS]

Having watched the game back, Kelly might be slightly disappointed. Tigers left a few tries out there and two were due to slight errors by Kelly. I said before the game if he wants international recognition he needs to show more than hard lines and defensive skill. Well misquing the crossfield kick to Porter and then passing to the TJ instead of either Steward or Potter meant certain tries went begging. He needs to tighten up those skills, particularly because against what looks likely to be Leinster in the next round you don't get that many chances and you certainly don't at international level. Again though he's young he's got time.

Just managed to watch the game back myself and I think you're being a touch harsh. The cross-field kick was pretty solidly placed - if Porter had put on the afterburners, he'd have caught it on the full, and 7 times of 10 that bouncing ball doesn't kick sideways into touch. The pass was bad, granted.

I think the general quality of his passing does need to be noted as something exceptional that he's showing. Several times he was at 10 and delivered long, swift, accurate passes (off either hand) to Ford hiding in the midfield. The Saumaki try wouldn't have been scored if not for his crisp and accurate passing.

He wasn't outstanding, but he did do a very decent job against a big step up in opponent, which is not nothing.


Chessum, on the other hand, was ridiculous. Seemed like he was everywhere - constantly being the one making cover tackles out wide or being first man in support, as well as being the main lineout man and part of a decent scrum. I don't know whether an Itoje/Chessum partnership might lack a bit of grunt in the tight carrying, but I'd certainly be interested in seeing it tried.

Puja

Yeah a touch harsh but those fine tunings are what he'll need at international rugby and against the likes of Saracens and Leinster when chances are rare. He'd be my go to every week if I was selecting the team just like he's Borthwick's. If he can just make those moments stick he'll really elevate his game to that top level.

I'd like to have a look at the Chessum/Itoje partnership as well. If Eddie wants to play the more expansive play what you see game then extra mobility wouldn't be a bad thing. Playing 80 mins like Chessum did at weekend against big and experienced opposition was definitely a big tick in the I'm ready for international rugby box. I don't think he conceded a penalty and he made a lot of good decisions around when to come out the line and when to support. Kayser called it out on Comms (I hope we get more of him commentating he's very good) when Tigers were down a man and Chessum was over an hour into the game and still helping lead the kick chase. A big difference in securing the result was just the fight on show, particularly in defence. Tigers were more disciplined and had it in the tank to go longer. The advantage of Ford and Steward dropping into the back field and mopping everything up cannot be underrated either whereas Clermont struggled once Matsushima went off injured. I'm a little surprised Clermont didn't test Saumaki under the high ball.

[Mikey Brown]

Where have we landed on Itoje as a lineout leader? It’s been mixed for England hasn’t it? I assumed that was essentially the reason for Ewels consistent inclusion.

I assume Chessum is a way off of running a lineout at the top level, though I’m not sure where Hill (as I think first choice 5?) figures in that either.

Kelly does sound like a real find. Any thoughts on an ideal centre partner if he’s to get a shot in the summer? Not seen a lot of him, looks a rounded player but a bit on the slow side or is that unfair?

[FKAS]

Where have we landed on Itoje as a lineout leader? It’s been mixed for England hasn’t it? I assumed that was essentially the reason for Ewels consistent inclusion.

I assume Chessum is a way off of running a lineout at the top level, though I’m not sure where Hill (as I think first choice 5?) figures in that either.

Kelly does sound like a real find. Any thoughts on an ideal centre partner if he’s to get a shot in the summer? Not seen a lot of him, looks a rounded player but a bit on the slow side or is that unfair?

He's not rapid but I'd expect him to be comfortably quicker than Slade and Atkinson who we had as the 12 options for the 6N. He's definitely not slow, if you got back to his under 20s games he played 13 and had an outside break in the locker. At international level he won't be doing people with pace as generally backs aren't slow but he won't be left behind either.

If he plays in the summer I'd have thought one of Slade or Marchant will be at 13 so that England have some consistency in the midfield as there'll be experimentation at 9 and Smith is still fairly new to international rugby and you don't want him in Australia with an entirely new backline.

Chessum is a very good lineout jumper, probably the best at the club. How much lineout he calls I don't know because there tends to be one of Green or Snyman on the pitch and it's what they are good at. Similarly Wells is comfortable calling the lineout as well. I suspect Borthwick would want all his locks happy running the lineout so it's probably something England could experiment with if he was partnered by Itoje and had the support of Lawes and one our experienced hookers.

[Oakboy]

Was Itoje the 'lineout leader' when Lawes was captain? I can't believe Ewels ever was.

[TheNomad]

Chessum is miles ahead of Ewels - obviously the case

I like Kelly, I think he should get a go for England

[Mikey Brown]

Chessum is miles ahead of Ewels - obviously the case

I’m not sure what you thought I was suggesting there. I just assumed the lineout expertise must be the thing Ewels was offering to keep him around, particularly as Jones puts a lot of emphasis on lineouts as an attacking platform.

Being good at jumping is easier to observe as a viewer than who is good at actually running the thing. I don’t know what the current England setup is.

[fivepointer]

Chessum's development, from good looking prospect to international and not looking out of place in about a year, is quite some leap.
The guy already looks like he's got plenty of England caps in him.
He must go to Australia.

[Puja]

Chessum's development, from good looking prospect to international and not looking out of place in about a year, is quite some leap.
The guy already looks like he's got plenty of England caps in him.
He must go to Australia.

His development even in the short space since being named in the first 6N squad is a thing to behold. When he was named, there was a definite amount of, "Who?", from non-Leicester fans and even we were trepidatious about whether he was really international quality. To go from, "Sure, I guess he could fill in as a rangy lock/6 if Lawes is injured, but where's Ted Hill?" to talking him up as a potential starting lock is quite a big shift in public opinion.

Puja