Blairites staging a coup...

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Sandydragon
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Sandydragon »

Donny osmond wrote:And now Hollande is being quoted on twitter as saying there'll be no separate discussions with Scotland.

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Spain are opposed to it as well. So Scotland would have to become independent, then apply. Which would take time one assumes (probably not as much as for some given previous integration) and they would need to adopt the Euro, whilst running some temporary solution after leave the UK.

I wonder how tempted the Scottish unlicensed will be once everyone calms down?


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Banquo
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Banquo »

Sandydragon wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:And now Hollande is being quoted on twitter as saying there'll be no separate discussions with Scotland.

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Spain are opposed to it as well. So Scotland would have to become independent, then apply. Which would take time one assumes (probably not as much as for some given previous integration) and they would need to adopt the Euro, whilst running some temporary solution after leave the UK.

I wonder how tempted the Scottish unlicensed will be once everyone calms down?


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just tippex UK out and insert Scotland seems to be Nicola's plan. There would need to be an actual Bank of Scotland I assume.
Digby
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Digby »

Banquo wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:And now Hollande is being quoted on twitter as saying there'll be no separate discussions with Scotland.

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Spain are opposed to it as well. So Scotland would have to become independent, then apply. Which would take time one assumes (probably not as much as for some given previous integration) and they would need to adopt the Euro, whilst running some temporary solution after leave the UK.

I wonder how tempted the Scottish unlicensed will be once everyone calms down?


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just tippex UK out and insert Scotland seems to be Nicola's plan. There would need to be an actual Bank of Scotland I assume.
It's all window dressing until they can sort out the debt issues. And like you I've no interest in wanting to pay for their independence. And the EU isn't going to rush to roll out the red carpet, unlike some countries Scotland isn't likely to fall under the yoke of Mother Russia, and unlike the UK would be a net recipient not contributor. I suppose oil prices might climb to the point that they can claim they can cover the debt, but I wouldn't like being hostage to one commodity price, I'm all for taking a risk in a game of rugby but not so much with a national economy.

They would have to adopt the Euro, though supposing they could join the EU I don't see insurmountable issues if they had to use Sterling as an interim currency whilst outside any influence on Sterling, whereas it would be daft as a longer term option.
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Donny osmond
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Donny osmond »

Image

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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Donny osmond
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Re: RE: Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Donny osmond »

Digby wrote:
Banquo wrote:
Sandydragon wrote: Spain are opposed to it as well. So Scotland would have to become independent, then apply. Which would take time one assumes (probably not as much as for some given previous integration) and they would need to adopt the Euro, whilst running some temporary solution after leave the UK.

I wonder how tempted the Scottish unlicensed will be once everyone calms down?


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just tippex UK out and insert Scotland seems to be Nicola's plan. There would need to be an actual Bank of Scotland I assume.
It's all window dressing until they can sort out the debt issues. And like you I've no interest in wanting to pay for their independence. And the EU isn't going to rush to roll out the red carpet, unlike some countries Scotland isn't likely to fall under the yoke of Mother Russia, and unlike the UK would be a net recipient not contributor. I suppose oil prices might climb to the point that they can claim they can cover the debt, but I wouldn't like being hostage to one commodity price, I'm all for taking a risk in a game of rugby but not so much with a national economy.

They would have to adopt the Euro, though supposing they could join the EU I don't see insurmountable issues if they had to use Sterling as an interim currency whilst outside any influence on Sterling, whereas it would be daft as a longer term option.
With our economics being what they are, we'd need a lender of last resort, so sterlingisation wouldn't be an option. Either as you say, join the euro and have the ecb baking us, or do what JPMorgan predict and launch a Scottish currency...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/jp-morgan- ... -1-4164909

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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Donny osmond
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Donny osmond »

"Ecb baking us..." Ha! That's a great typo, I'm leaving it in

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Digby
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Re: RE: Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Digby »

Donny osmond wrote: With our economics being what they are, we'd need a lender of last resort, so sterlingisation wouldn't be an option. Either as you say, join the euro and have the ecb baking us, or do what JPMorgan predict and launch a Scottish currency...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/jp-morgan- ... -1-4164909

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I think there's wriggle room to use sterling on a (very) interim basis providing everyone was confident the move to the Euro was assured. It'd be a non starter in the event of an unclear or drawn out process
Digby
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Digby »

Donny osmond wrote:Image

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It's one of the oddities. Many Brexiters being in favour of keeping the UK union, many Scottish nationalists wanting independence but also to keep the European union. Both agreeing there needs to be more indpendence and a retention of union, and both disagreeing so vehemently about it at the same time.
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Donny osmond
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Re: RE: Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Donny osmond »

Digby wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:Image

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It's one of the oddities. Many Brexiters being in favour of keeping the UK union, many Scottish nationalists wanting independence but also to keep the European union. Both agreeing there needs to be more indpendence and a retention of union, and both disagreeing so vehemently about it at the same time.
Yeah... I couldn't really wrap my head around seeing passionate Indy supporters becoming passionate union supporters. There are explanations out there, but they go down some dark paths that I don't really want to (re)visit.

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
UGagain
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by UGagain »

The media drivel has been well absorbed I see.

Scary debt situation!!!!!!

Laughable.
As for the maths. There are mathematic 'theories' on both sides, they are not the same as mathematical facts. I asked for maths.

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UGagain
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by UGagain »

Killing Corbyn

The 'Brexit' referendum vote, split 52% to 48% in favour of leaving the European Union, has been exploited by the 'mainstream' media to launch yet another assault on Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. 'Impartial' BBC News, directed by former Murdoch editor James Harding, has been one of the worst culprits.

Consider the wave of resignations of Labour shadow ministers which was heavily promoted in advance on the front page of the BBC News website: ' "Half" of Labour top team set to resign...the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg understands'. When the Labour resignations started to roll in, Kuenssberg could be heard virtually gloating over Corbyn's predicament:

'A bad day at the office. A very bad day.' (BBC Weekend News, BBC1, June 26, 2016)

She wrote on the BBC website:

'There have been concerns about Jeremy Corbyn's performance for months and months. But it was his role, or lack of role, in the campaign to keep the UK in the EU, and his sacking of Hilary Benn in the middle of the night, that has given members of the shadow cabinet the final reasons to quit.'

The laughably biased reference to 'months and months' and 'final reasons to quit' were intended to portray Labour MPs as exasperated and understandably at the end of their tether. Clearly reaching for some kind of 'smoking gun' to finish Corbyn, Kuenssberg added:

'documents passed to the BBC suggest Jeremy Corbyn's office sought to delay and water down the Labour Remain campaign. Sources suggest that they are evidence of "deliberate sabotage".'

But, as Carlyn Harvey wrote on The Canary website, the 'evidence' – a sparse selection of leaked emails that the BBC deigned not to show to the public - was bogus:

'The emails themselves are not sent from Corbyn's office and are not published in the BBC article. The broadcaster merely handpicks a few select quotes from them, and allows Kuenssberg to let rip in her analysis of the cache.'

Harvey summarised: 'Is this the level of analysis we should tolerate from the BBC?'

Kuenssberg concluded her attempted hit piece by observing that Corbyn 'has had persuasive and vehement backing from the party's members':

'But as the Labour Party reels from Thursday's result, it is not clear that support will be as solid as it was. MPs report that some of their members are contacting them to say they've changed their minds about Mr Corbyn. We'll see. It's possible that within days, both of our two main political parties will be looking for a new leader.'

These anonymous 'MPs' were the same Blairite coup plotters, of course. No balance was included in the original article, no response to the damning allegations, no recognition that these were indeed cynical Blairite plotters seeking any excuse to be rid of Corbyn. Indeed the word 'Blairite' does not appear in Kuenssberg's piece, just as it didn't in a supposedly impartial Observer analysis. Honest commentators, of course, understand that the word 'Blairite' is crucial for anyone trying to make sense of the relentless attacks on Corbyn. Thus, former Guardian journalist Jonathan Cook:

'Corbyn and his supporters want to revive Labour as a party of social justice... This is nothing more than a class war to pave the way for a return of the Blairites to lead Labour.'

The BBC later added balancing comments, after receiving complaints.

The following morning, BBC News misinformed the public that Tom Watson, deputy leader of the Labour Party, had told Corbyn that he must resign. This was false. BBC News quietly retracted the claim without admitting their error. Indeed, as captured by a Labour activist, BBC News had three significantly different headlines in just twenty minutes.

'Labour's Watson tells Corbyn to quit'

became:

'Tom Watson tells Jeremy Corbyn to consider his position'

which became:

'Tom Watson tells Jeremy Corbyn he faces leadership challenge'

It looked as though the BBC's desire to be rid of Corbyn had raced ahead of the facts.

A couple of days earlier, in common with other corporate news media, the BBC pushed a manufactured story about Corbyn being heckled at Gay Pride. The staged incident was also given significant coverage on ITN and Sky News, and even front-page treatment in the Guardian. In fact, as Craig Murray observed, the 'heckler' turned out to be Tom Mauchline who works for the public relations firm Portland Communications. Mauchline had also previously worked on the Liz Kendall campaign for the Labour leadership. Portland's 'strategic counsel' is the notorious Alastair Campbell, Blair's former media chief who helped to sell the illegal invasion-occupation of Iraq. None of this was spelled out in the Guardian report by Heather Stewart, the paper's political editor. Instead, there was a single cryptic line that concealed more than it delivered:

'Allies of the Labour leader said the confrontation at Pride had been staged by anti-Corbyn activists who were attempting to undermine the leader's position'.

There was no further explanation or context. When challenged on Twitter, Stewart responded:

'Story makes clear it was regarded as staged by Corbyn backers; but if part of plot to destabilise him it's news.'

This was a facile reply. Craig Murray himself then asked her:

'1) why does it not make clear that Mauchline is a PR man for Portland Comms? 2) How did you become aware of the story?'

As far as we can see, the Guardian's political editor simply ignored the awkward questions.

Meanwhile, BBC News ran a live feed on their home page with the headline, 'Corbyn crisis and Brexit'. Brexit was almost an afterthought; it certainly seemed to be playing second fiddle to the 'Corbyn crisis'. Anyone seeing this could be forgiven for asking about the BBC News editorial agenda and its setting of priorities. It was as though we were to forget that Prime Minister David Cameron had announced his resignation three days earlier; and that Cameron and the Tory party had led the country into a referendum that had resulted in the FTSE 100 index falling more than 8%, and the pound falling against the dollar by 10%; and that a number of Tories were scrambling to become the new leader, including the warmongering, climate-denying Boris Johnson. But, true to form, BBC News was happy to hammer on about the 'Corbyn crisis'; this despite the fact that 'Labour persuaded two-thirds of its supporters to vote remain'.

It was actually surreal to read a post-Brexit BBC article on June 28, 'Conservative leader: Who might succeed David Cameron?', reminding readers of Johnson's 'unique brand of charisma making him a household name... he is regarded as being an electoral asset', while Michael Gove was 'reforming, if controversial' and 'is still respected on both the Remain and Leave wings of the party'. No serious criticism of either politician was included, despite their deep responsibility for the Brexit crisis. By contrast, as we saw above, the BBC was only too happy to include damning judgements of Corbyn.

Perhaps the worst example of an anti-Corbyn attack, post-Brexit, was in the Mail on Sunday. A piece by Dan Hodges was illustrated by a Photoshopped image of a malevolent vampiric Corbyn in a coffin with the despicable headline, 'Labour MUST kill vampire Jezza'. That this should appear just ten days after Labour MP Jo Cox was brutally murdered is almost beyond belief.

When challenged by readers, Hodges responded with the standard cop-out:

'Sorry, but I don't write the headlines.'

It is true that sub-editors write newspaper headlines. But Hodges could still have indicated that he recognised the callousness and irresponsibility of the headline and photo.

One reader fired off this rational follow-up challenge:

'But are you condoning the headline? Do you agree with it? Or is just no comment from you?'

Hodges did not reply; understandably enough. In March, a tragi-comic announcement was issued: 'Britain's best political columnist DAN HODGES joins the Mail on Sunday.' A lucrative contract for Hodges, to be sure, and one he would be reluctant to jeopardise by criticising his paymasters. 'It's hard to make the sums add up when you are kicking the people who write the cheques', as the BBC's Andrew Marr once observed. (Andrew Marr, 'My Trade - A Short History Of British Journalism', Macmillan, 2004, p.112)

In a blog piece, Craig Murray rightly noted:

'The demonstrable public contempt of the public for the political class has been mirrored these last few days by the demonstrable contempt of the political class for the public. This has been obvious in the response to the Brexit vote, and in the Labour parliamentary party's move against Corbyn. Both are evidence that the political class feel that they should not be directed by a wider public.'

This explains why the corporate media have avoided mentioning that Corbyn won last year's leadership election by a 'landslide', winning 60% of the vote, more than all the rest of the candidates combined. Despite noting that Angela Eagle is the likely leadership contender, the media have also ignored a February YouGov poll that found that 60% of Labour members would vote for Corbyn in a new leadership race, with 15% supporting Hilary Benn and just 6% supporting Angela Eagle.

Murray continued:

'Everybody knows that the Labour parliamentary party is well to the right of both the membership and the trade unions, and has been itching to get rid of Corbyn from day one. For those who have constantly stabbed him in the back for a year to criticise his effectiveness in fighting their opponents is ridiculous.'

Investigative journalist Nafeez Ahmed points out that:

'The latest coup attempt against Jeremy Corbyn within the Labour Party is being led by an elitist Blairite network who have always seen his sudden rise to leadership as a threat to their waning control of the party.'

Attempts to unseat Corbyn have been supported by Left Foot Forward Ltd, a company set up by Will Straw, which runs the country's 'No. 1 left-wing blog' of the same name. Straw is the son of Jack Straw who served as Home Secretary and Foreign Secretary under Tony Blair. Ahmed notes that Will Straw is:

'among a network of longtime Blairite stalwarts trying to "re-found" the Labour Party – a project demolished by Jeremy Corbyn's landslide victory in the Labour leadership elections in September 2015.'

The independent journalist Steve Topple highlights the links between coordinated attacks on Corbyn and a network of Labour figures with direct links to the PR company, Portland Communications (mentioned above). The PR firm was set up in 2001 by a former adviser to Blair. Its clients include the World Economic Forum, the EU, the UK government, Barclays Bank and large companies, including Morrisons and Nestle.

Two weeks ago, the Daily Telegraph reported that:

'Labour rebels hope to topple Jeremy Corbyn in 24-hour blitz after EU referendum'.

The article continued:

'By fanning the flames with front bench resignations and public criticism they think the signatures needed to trigger a leadership race can be gathered within a day.'

BBC News - in particular, its political editor Laura Kuenssberg - continues to play a disreputable role in fanning these flames. In a BBC News article on Tuesday, Kuenssberg pointed to two more Labour figures who have called on Corbyn to resign as 'signs that his backing away from Parliament could be starting to fray.' Extrapolating wildly, she concluded:

'The wave of enthusiasm he built outside Parliament may be starting to recede.'

This is all part of a bigger picture of how the BBC has put 'its full weight behind the Corbyn coup', as Carlyn Harvey notes. Readers may recall that Kuenssberg helped to orchestrate the on-air resignation of a shadow Labour minister earlier this year: another attempt to undermine Corbyn's leadership.

The 'Guardian view' is that the 'Corbyn experiment is effectively over at Westminster'. This casual dismissal comes from the 'liberal' paper which opposed Corbyn from the start, and which makes no mention of the relentless media wrecking campaign against him, including its own ugly role. The 'Corbyn experiment' is an experiment in real democracy; something which the Guardian has sought to destroy. A responsible newspaper would relentlessly expose the truth about society; namely, that 'politics is the shadow cast on society by big business', as the American philosopher John Dewey said.

Nobody should be surprised at the shameful performance of the corporate media, especially BBC News. Any threat to the 'natural order' of power brings the schism between private interests and public interests into sharp focus. The heightened, almost farcical, attacks on Corbyn are thus entirely predictable. Rather than feeling anguished at this state of affairs, we can regard it is a sign of how nervous and vulnerable the establishment is when an awakened public challenges elite power.

DC and DE

http://medialens.org/index.php?option=c ... Itemid=248
As for the maths. There are mathematic 'theories' on both sides, they are not the same as mathematical facts. I asked for maths.

Mellsblue.
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Eugene Wrayburn
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Eugene Wrayburn »

jared_7 wrote:
gthedog wrote:My take is Labour still don't get it and they are going to be smashed at the next election with UKIP making massive further gains in Labour heartlands
The party will be people like Hammy who were right on in their day and a bunch of shouty lefty yoofs who are also right on but don't understand what democracy is
I met such a yoof the other month in the boozer. He was delusional in the machinations of how the world and democracy work but ultimately he was boring. Boring in his capacity to understand and boring in his wish to be governed by crazies
The youth are disenfranchised because they feel their lives are screwed, in many ways by generations who like to call them "yoofs" and "delusional about how democracy works" and how they need to just "get a job" and "work hard, like my generation did".

They may not go about it the right way, but they have a right to be aggrieved at housing prices over 10x the average income, student debt and costs of education at levels never seen before, food banks bursting at the seems and on top of that, oh yeah the environment's screwed. All at a time when they get told we are richer than we have ever been.

The problem is they don't feel they have a voice. Jeremy Corbyn was that voice, but all they now see is him being ousted by a bunch of MPs who want more of the status quo they feel is hurting them.

This is not me offering an answer, I don't know what it is. But just as the oldies have copped an unfair amount of criticism over Brexit, the "Yoof" cop a lot of unfair flak for simply wanting change.
They disenfranchise themselves because THEY CAN'T BE FUCKING ARSED TO VOTE. I'm still fucking furious that the youth of this country can't be assed to turn up and vote in a referendum that affects them much more than anyone else. If you want to have a voice THEN VOTE. If you don't want to be ignored THEN VOTE. If you don't vote then why the fuck would anyone listen to a word you say.
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

NS. Gone but not forgotten.
Banquo
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Banquo »

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
jared_7 wrote:
gthedog wrote:My take is Labour still don't get it and they are going to be smashed at the next election with UKIP making massive further gains in Labour heartlands
The party will be people like Hammy who were right on in their day and a bunch of shouty lefty yoofs who are also right on but don't understand what democracy is
I met such a yoof the other month in the boozer. He was delusional in the machinations of how the world and democracy work but ultimately he was boring. Boring in his capacity to understand and boring in his wish to be governed by crazies
The youth are disenfranchised because they feel their lives are screwed, in many ways by generations who like to call them "yoofs" and "delusional about how democracy works" and how they need to just "get a job" and "work hard, like my generation did".

They may not go about it the right way, but they have a right to be aggrieved at housing prices over 10x the average income, student debt and costs of education at levels never seen before, food banks bursting at the seems and on top of that, oh yeah the environment's screwed. All at a time when they get told we are richer than we have ever been.

The problem is they don't feel they have a voice. Jeremy Corbyn was that voice, but all they now see is him being ousted by a bunch of MPs who want more of the status quo they feel is hurting them.

This is not me offering an answer, I don't know what it is. But just as the oldies have copped an unfair amount of criticism over Brexit, the "Yoof" cop a lot of unfair flak for simply wanting change.
They disenfranchise themselves because THEY CAN'T BE FUCKING ARSED TO VOTE. I'm still fucking furious that the youth of this country can't be assed to turn up and vote in a referendum that affects them much more than anyone else. If you want to have a voice THEN VOTE. If you don't want to be ignored THEN VOTE. If you don't vote then why the fuck would anyone listen to a word you say.
quite
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Donny osmond
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Re: RE: Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Donny osmond »

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
jared_7 wrote:
gthedog wrote:My take is Labour still don't get it and they are going to be smashed at the next election with UKIP making massive further gains in Labour heartlands
The party will be people like Hammy who were right on in their day and a bunch of shouty lefty yoofs who are also right on but don't understand what democracy is
I met such a yoof the other month in the boozer. He was delusional in the machinations of how the world and democracy work but ultimately he was boring. Boring in his capacity to understand and boring in his wish to be governed by crazies
The youth are disenfranchised because they feel their lives are screwed, in many ways by generations who like to call them "yoofs" and "delusional about how democracy works" and how they need to just "get a job" and "work hard, like my generation did".

They may not go about it the right way, but they have a right to be aggrieved at housing prices over 10x the average income, student debt and costs of education at levels never seen before, food banks bursting at the seems and on top of that, oh yeah the environment's screwed. All at a time when they get told we are richer than we have ever been.

The problem is they don't feel they have a voice. Jeremy Corbyn was that voice, but all they now see is him being ousted by a bunch of MPs who want more of the status quo they feel is hurting them.

This is not me offering an answer, I don't know what it is. But just as the oldies have copped an unfair amount of criticism over Brexit, the "Yoof" cop a lot of unfair flak for simply wanting change.
They disenfranchise themselves because THEY CAN'T BE FUCKING ARSED TO VOTE. I'm still fucking furious that the youth of this country can't be assed to turn up and vote in a referendum that affects them much more than anyone else. If you want to have a voice THEN VOTE. If you don't want to be ignored THEN VOTE. If you don't vote then why the fuck would anyone listen to a word you say.
It's a fair and reasonable point

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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Mellsblue
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Mellsblue »

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
jared_7 wrote:
gthedog wrote:My take is Labour still don't get it and they are going to be smashed at the next election with UKIP making massive further gains in Labour heartlands
The party will be people like Hammy who were right on in their day and a bunch of shouty lefty yoofs who are also right on but don't understand what democracy is
I met such a yoof the other month in the boozer. He was delusional in the machinations of how the world and democracy work but ultimately he was boring. Boring in his capacity to understand and boring in his wish to be governed by crazies
The youth are disenfranchised because they feel their lives are screwed, in many ways by generations who like to call them "yoofs" and "delusional about how democracy works" and how they need to just "get a job" and "work hard, like my generation did".

They may not go about it the right way, but they have a right to be aggrieved at housing prices over 10x the average income, student debt and costs of education at levels never seen before, food banks bursting at the seems and on top of that, oh yeah the environment's screwed. All at a time when they get told we are richer than we have ever been.

The problem is they don't feel they have a voice. Jeremy Corbyn was that voice, but all they now see is him being ousted by a bunch of MPs who want more of the status quo they feel is hurting them.

This is not me offering an answer, I don't know what it is. But just as the oldies have copped an unfair amount of criticism over Brexit, the "Yoof" cop a lot of unfair flak for simply wanting change.
They disenfranchise themselves because THEY CAN'T BE FUCKING ARSED TO VOTE. I'm still fucking furious that the youth of this country can't be assed to turn up and vote in a referendum that affects them much more than anyone else. If you want to have a voice THEN VOTE. If you don't want to be ignored THEN VOTE. If you don't vote then why the fuck would anyone listen to a word you say.
Yep. My mother had felt quite guilty at the thought that her generation had overruled the wishes of the younger generation. When I showed her the turnout based on age bands that guilt diminished a fair bit.
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Edinburgh in Exile
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Re: RE: Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Edinburgh in Exile »

Donny osmond wrote:
Digby wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:Image

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It's one of the oddities. Many Brexiters being in favour of keeping the UK union, many Scottish nationalists wanting independence but also to keep the European union. Both agreeing there needs to be more indpendence and a retention of union, and both disagreeing so vehemently about it at the same time.
Yeah... I couldn't really wrap my head around seeing passionate Indy supporters becoming passionate union supporters. There are explanations out there, but they go down some dark paths that I don't really want to (re)visit.

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We may need a Scotland indy fred. Although there are only about 6 cats in here, so might be an idea to just hash it out here.

On your point above Donny. I'm one of them. Although, Id argue I'd always been a supporter of the EU, instead of becoming one. I see The United Kingdom and the European Union as two entirely different beasts.

There is a huge amount of grey area in my politics, I don't see it as a binary choice, it isn't "Dislike this Union, dislike all unions".

I am the direct opposition to the Brexiter who wants Scotland to remain in the UK. These are, after all, the cats that voted out of the European Union because (amongst many other reasons) they didn't like the idea of an bunch of people they didn't vote for or elect having a say in their countries affairs. I'd argue that when 74% of my town, and 62% of my country voting to remain, I have the same grievance in a more tangible way.

As flippantly as I can put it, I think it's a crying shame that Britain is on the brink of pulling out of Europe because the ruling party... that holds a staggering total of one Scottish seat in Westminster wanted to settle an internal shitfight, and subsequently made an arse of it.

Ah fuck it, I'm all over the place with this argument, and I'm not going near the economics of it, thats for far smarter minds than my simple one. I'm also willing to accept that Scotland simply may not be able afford independence, or the EU might just tell us to get fucked.
BigAl
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by BigAl »

Donny osmond wrote:Scotland's economy is well fucked, deficit to debt ratio far worse than Greece's ever was. To get the EU to agree to take us in would eclipse all the tasks of Hercules.

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It's really really not. It's only "well fucked" if you ignore revenue that HMRC don't currently class as being Scottish but rather as national assets. Primarily Oil and Whisky, but also natural energy sources which are growing. Scotland would benefit from immigration, but most economies do.

The Spanish PM is himself suffering a bit of a problem right now with a separatist movement and his own voters so I'd tend to discount anything he says.
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Donny osmond
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Donny osmond »

Edinburgh in Exile wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:
Digby wrote:

It's one of the oddities. Many Brexiters being in favour of keeping the UK union, many Scottish nationalists wanting independence but also to keep the European union. Both agreeing there needs to be more indpendence and a retention of union, and both disagreeing so vehemently about it at the same time.
Yeah... I couldn't really wrap my head around seeing passionate Indy supporters becoming passionate union supporters. There are explanations out there, but they go down some dark paths that I don't really want to (re)visit.

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We may need a Scotland indy fred. Although there are only about 6 cats in here, so might be an idea to just hash it out here.

On your point above Donny. I'm one of them. Although, Id argue I'd always been a supporter of the EU, instead of becoming one. I see The United Kingdom and the European Union as two entirely different beasts.

There is a huge amount of grey area in my politics, I don't see it as a binary choice, it isn't "Dislike this Union, dislike all unions".

I am the direct opposition to the Brexiter who wants Scotland to remain in the UK. These are, after all, the cats that voted out of the European Union because (amongst many other reasons) they didn't like the idea of an bunch of people they didn't vote for or elect having a say in their countries affairs. I'd argue that when 74% of my town, and 62% of my country voting to remain, I have the same grievance in a more tangible way.

As flippantly as I can put it, I think it's a crying shame that Britain is on the brink of pulling out of Europe because the ruling party... that holds a staggering total of one Scottish seat in Westminster wanted to settle an internal shitfight, and subsequently made an arse of it.

Ah fuck it, I'm all over the place with this argument, and I'm not going near the economics of it, thats for far smarter minds than my simple one. I'm also willing to accept that Scotland simply may not be able afford independence, or the EU might just tell us to get fucked.
Don't do yourself down, I totally get your argument, its a powerful one and its floating around my head too. There's no denying the EU and UK are obviously different beasts, but that doesn't mean the reasons for being involved in those unions are necessarily different.

I agree its a crying shame Britain is coming out of a union that has on balance been good for Britain despite some problems. I don't see how that doesn't apply to Scotland coming out of the UK also, but hey ho.

And if e.g. Orkney or Edinburgh vote against independence next time, is Sturgeon going to find it "democratically unacceptable" to inflict something on them they didn't vote for? Are you going to? Why not?

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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Donny osmond
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Re: RE: Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Donny osmond »

BigAl wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:Scotland's economy is well fucked, deficit to debt ratio far worse than Greece's ever was. To get the EU to agree to take us in would eclipse all the tasks of Hercules.

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It's really really not. It's only "well fucked" if you ignore revenue that HMRC don't currently class as being Scottish but rather as national assets. Primarily Oil and Whisky, but also natural energy sources which are growing. Scotland would benefit from immigration, but most economies do.

The Spanish PM is himself suffering a bit of a problem right now with a separatist movement and his own voters so I'd tend to discount anything he says.
It really really is, at least according to the GERS figures that the Scottish govt (not HMRC) produces, and that the SNP used as the foundation of their White Paper.

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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Sandydragon
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Sandydragon »

Banquo wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:And now Hollande is being quoted on twitter as saying there'll be no separate discussions with Scotland.

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Spain are opposed to it as well. So Scotland would have to become independent, then apply. Which would take time one assumes (probably not as much as for some given previous integration) and they would need to adopt the Euro, whilst running some temporary solution after leave the UK.

I wonder how tempted the Scottish unlicensed will be once everyone calms down?


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just tippex UK out and insert Scotland seems to be Nicola's plan. There would need to be an actual Bank of Scotland I assume.
Unless they use Sterling for a while like Panama (I think) uses the dollar.
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Sandydragon
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Sandydragon »

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
jared_7 wrote:
gthedog wrote:My take is Labour still don't get it and they are going to be smashed at the next election with UKIP making massive further gains in Labour heartlands
The party will be people like Hammy who were right on in their day and a bunch of shouty lefty yoofs who are also right on but don't understand what democracy is
I met such a yoof the other month in the boozer. He was delusional in the machinations of how the world and democracy work but ultimately he was boring. Boring in his capacity to understand and boring in his wish to be governed by crazies
The youth are disenfranchised because they feel their lives are screwed, in many ways by generations who like to call them "yoofs" and "delusional about how democracy works" and how they need to just "get a job" and "work hard, like my generation did".

They may not go about it the right way, but they have a right to be aggrieved at housing prices over 10x the average income, student debt and costs of education at levels never seen before, food banks bursting at the seems and on top of that, oh yeah the environment's screwed. All at a time when they get told we are richer than we have ever been.

The problem is they don't feel they have a voice. Jeremy Corbyn was that voice, but all they now see is him being ousted by a bunch of MPs who want more of the status quo they feel is hurting them.

This is not me offering an answer, I don't know what it is. But just as the oldies have copped an unfair amount of criticism over Brexit, the "Yoof" cop a lot of unfair flak for simply wanting change.
They disenfranchise themselves because THEY CAN'T BE FUCKING ARSED TO VOTE. I'm still fucking furious that the youth of this country can't be assed to turn up and vote in a referendum that affects them much more than anyone else. If you want to have a voice THEN VOTE. If you don't want to be ignored THEN VOTE. If you don't vote then why the fuck would anyone listen to a word you say.
After days of reading whinging on Facebook over how the old people screwed them over, I find out the, u surprising, fact that younger voters didn't show up. Are they stupid enough to think a like on Facebook counts instead? Pathetic.
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Lizard
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Lizard »

Scotland, London and NI just need to figure out a way to eject the rest of England and Wales from the UK, and then carry on as an EU member together. Simple.
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UGagain
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by UGagain »

Donny osmond wrote:Scotland's economy is well fucked, deficit to debt ratio far worse than Greece's ever was. To get the EU to agree to take us in would eclipse all the tasks of Hercules.

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Sounds serious.

What does it mean?

:lol:
As for the maths. There are mathematic 'theories' on both sides, they are not the same as mathematical facts. I asked for maths.

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Banquo
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Banquo »

Lizard wrote:Scotland, London and NI just need to figure out a way to eject the rest of England and Wales from the UK, and then carry on as an EU member together. Simple.
and South Cambridgeshire #justsaying
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Stones of granite
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Re: Blairites staging a coup...

Post by Stones of granite »

I was quite interested in this paragraph from a Guardian article this morning.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ittle-hope

Nicola Sturgeon’s hopes of gaining support for her bid to keep Scotland in the European Union despite the UK’s vote to leave have been dealt a blow after the Spanish prime minister warned: “If the United Kingdom leaves … Scotland leaves.”

It seems that the Spanish Prime Minister is willing to pay to pay of the price his fishermen being excluded from British fishing waters - most of which lie inside what would be Scottish fishing waters - in order to wave a matter of principle at his Catalonian opponents.
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