Toulon v London Irish Sun 12.30

[Puja]

To be honest, I expect Arundell to be called into the England squad for the summer and then break a leg or something in the baabaas fixture or in meaningless premiership game. I'm sad to say that seems more likely than him becoming world class. Fingers crossed I am overly pessimistic.

Yeah, I'm feeling this too. He'll be called up and then break his leg in 17 places in an unremarkable collision, just because we all got excited.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I think there is something to that.

There are definitely players that we’ve missed out on - either temporarily (Mercer) or permanently (Redpath, Tompkins), but not many and generally speaking players who have trained but not played immediately have been at high points that weren’t necessarily sustained. Possibly a bit unfair on Odogwu as he was flying pre-injury, but right now Hougaard (as a winger) is rightly ahead of him in the pecking order at Wasps.

I also look at what Brad Shields is doing now and concede Eddie was actually right but capped him too soon.

[Banquo]

Wasn't Odogwu going to be 13?

It does make me think that international coaches may be onto something when they don't pick all our favourites instantly. People like maunder and Joe Simmonds got a ton of hype and have now completely dropped away.

Eddie does tend to have a look at them in camp at least.

[Beasties]

I think there is something to that.

There are definitely players that we’ve missed out on - either temporarily (Mercer) or permanently (Redpath, Tompkins), but not many and generally speaking players who have trained but not played immediately have been at high points that weren’t necessarily sustained. Possibly a bit unfair on Odogwu as he was flying pre-injury, but right now Hougaard (as a winger) is rightly ahead of him in the pecking order at Wasps.

I also look at what Brad Shields is doing now and concede Eddie was actually right but capped him too soon.

It’s a strange thing, there seems to be quite a few players whose form improves once Eddie’s finally done with them.

[Puja]

Wasn't Odogwu going to be 13?

It does make me think that international coaches may be onto something when they don't pick all our favourites instantly. People like maunder and Joe Simmonds got a ton of hype and have now completely dropped away.

Trying to make a backline of the players that pundits/some fans have at points been frothing at the mouth over Eddie not picking them who've turned out to be pretty average long-term. So far, I have:

9. Spencer
10. JSimmonds
11. Thorley
12. Atkinson
13. Odogwu

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Wasn't Odogwu going to be 13?

It does make me think that international coaches may be onto something when they don't pick all our favourites instantly. People like maunder and Joe Simmonds got a ton of hype and have now completely dropped away.

Trying to make a backline of the players that pundits/some fans have at points been frothing at the mouth over Eddie not picking them who've turned out to be pretty average long-term. So far, I have:

9. Spencer
10. JSimmonds
11. Thorley
12. Atkinson
13. Odogwu

Puja

MOD!!! MOD!!! Oh, balls…. who Mods the mod?

[Mellsblue]

Wasn't Odogwu going to be 13?

It does make me think that international coaches may be onto something when they don't pick all our favourites instantly. People like maunder and Joe Simmonds got a ton of hype and have now completely dropped away.

Trying to make a backline of the players that pundits/some fans have at points been frothing at the mouth over Eddie not picking them who've turned out to be pretty average long-term. So far, I have:

9. Spencer
10. JSimmonds
11. Thorley
12. Atkinson
13. Odogwu

Puja

15. Steward

[Scrumhead]

You could maybe add Sleightholme and de Glanville, albeit neither has had quite the same amount of ‘frothing’.

There are a fair few forwards though - Don Armand springs to mind for example.

[Puja]

Wasn't Odogwu going to be 13?

It does make me think that international coaches may be onto something when they don't pick all our favourites instantly. People like maunder and Joe Simmonds got a ton of hype and have now completely dropped away.

Trying to make a backline of the players that pundits/some fans have at points been frothing at the mouth over Eddie not picking them who've turned out to be pretty average long-term. So far, I have:

9. Spencer
10. JSimmonds
11. Thorley
12. Atkinson
13. Odogwu

Puja

MOD!!! MOD!!! Oh, balls…. who Mods the mod?

Hook line sinker.png

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Trying to make a backline of the players that pundits/some fans have at points been frothing at the mouth over Eddie not picking them who've turned out to be pretty average long-term. So far, I have:

9. Spencer
10. JSimmonds
11. Thorley
12. Atkinson
13. Odogwu

Puja

MOD!!! MOD!!! Oh, balls…. who Mods the mod?

Hook line sinker.png

Puja

[Banquo]

Wasn't Odogwu going to be 13?

It does make me think that international coaches may be onto something when they don't pick all our favourites instantly. People like maunder and Joe Simmonds got a ton of hype and have now completely dropped away.

Trying to make a backline of the players that pundits/some fans have at points been frothing at the mouth over Eddie not picking them who've turned out to be pretty average long-term. So far, I have:

9. Spencer
10. JSimmonds
11. Thorley
12. Atkinson
13. Odogwu

Puja

Eddie has picked all of them, bar Simmonds. And you are being a tad unkind to some of them- Atkinson has been a good prem player, as have Thorley and Simmonds in the round.

[Banquo]

You could maybe add Sleightholme and de Glanville, albeit neither has had quite the same amount of ‘frothing’.

There are a fair few forwards though - Don Armand springs to mind for example.

Eddie has also picked Armand. Sleightholme has never been fit for long enough.

[Puja]

Wasn't Odogwu going to be 13?

It does make me think that international coaches may be onto something when they don't pick all our favourites instantly. People like maunder and Joe Simmonds got a ton of hype and have now completely dropped away.

Trying to make a backline of the players that pundits/some fans have at points been frothing at the mouth over Eddie not picking them who've turned out to be pretty average long-term. So far, I have:

9. Spencer
10. JSimmonds
11. Thorley
12. Atkinson
13. Odogwu

Puja

Eddie has picked all of them, bar Simmonds. And you are being a tad unkind to some of them- Atkinson has been a good prem player, as have Thorley and Simmonds in the round.

*Picking them as regular starters and *average in terms of potential international. Each of those have been trumpeted as "The Answer For England" at various times, when they are in fact just good prem players as you mentioned.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Yep. That’s how I interpreted it too.

[Mr Mwenda]

It’s a strange thing, there seems to be quite a few players whose form improves once Eddie’s finally done with them.

Although how much of that is not having to play at the highest level any more?

I think the Vunipolae for example clearly needed a break for example. Presumably nobody wants to be rested for 2 years from England duty even if their body needs it so you'd think dropping them is the only way it happens.

[Banquo]

Trying to make a backline of the players that pundits/some fans have at points been frothing at the mouth over Eddie not picking them who've turned out to be pretty average long-term. So far, I have:

9. Spencer
10. JSimmonds
11. Thorley
12. Atkinson
13. Odogwu

Puja

Eddie has picked all of them, bar Simmonds. And you are being a tad unkind to some of them- Atkinson has been a good prem player, as have Thorley and Simmonds in the round.

*Picking them as regular starters and *average in terms of potential international. Each of those have been trumpeted as "The Answer For England" at various times, when they are in fact just good prem players as you mentioned.

Puja

The confusing bit was the 'turned out to be pretty average long term' in that none of them had or has yet had a 'long term' with England (which circulates back to the regular starters bit). So the only long term would really be their club form. Not sure any were trumpeted as 'the answer for England' tbh, though I mentioned Simmonds as being worth a look about 3 years ago.

Odogwu seems to have fallen away for some reason, ditto Thorley ish. Both looked to have the physical attributes, so no sure what happened. Spencer and Atkinson imo were never really likely to be regular intls. Simmonds has disappointed in the last 18 months, in tandem with his club.

[Raggs]

Odogwu at 13 didn't get much of a chance since fekitoa regained fitness at a similar time and Sam Spink has done very well there too.

[Banquo]

Odogwu at 13 didn't get much of a chance since fekitoa regained fitness at a similar time and Sam Spink has done very well there too.

Isn't he a better winger anyway?

[Raggs]

Odogwu at 13 didn't get much of a chance since fekitoa regained fitness at a similar time and Sam Spink has done very well there too.

Isn't he a better winger anyway?

He gets more ball at 13, which is what you want, even when he's trying to get on the ball from the wing, it doesn't work as well as him being at 13. He's also very good at rucks, both securing and stealing ball, so centres is more useful for that too.

[Banquo]

Odogwu at 13 didn't get much of a chance since fekitoa regained fitness at a similar time and Sam Spink has done very well there too.

Isn't he a better winger anyway?

He gets more ball at 13, which is what you want, even when he's trying to get on the ball from the wing, it doesn't work as well as him being at 13. He's also very good at rucks, both securing and stealing ball, so centres is more useful for that too.

passing, decision making, defence ?....whats the view?

[Raggs]

Isn't he a better winger anyway?

He gets more ball at 13, which is what you want, even when he's trying to get on the ball from the wing, it doesn't work as well as him being at 13. He's also very good at rucks, both securing and stealing ball, so centres is more useful for that too.

passing, decision making, defence ?....whats the view?

Don't know how his decision making is in defence, but he's not afraid to get stuck in which is nice from a winger. Passing isn't his strong suit, but he's not someone you want passing too often in the end.

[Spiffy]

He gets more ball at 13, which is what you want, even when he's trying to get on the ball from the wing, it doesn't work as well as him being at 13. He's also very good at rucks, both securing and stealing ball, so centres is more useful for that too.

passing, decision making, defence ?....whats the view?

Don't know how his decision making is in defence, but he's not afraid to get stuck in which is nice from a winger. Passing isn't his strong suit, but he's not someone you want passing too often in the end.

It's hard to believe that a three quarter who is a poor passer could get close to an international XV. Yet it is not uncommon at the top level now. Take a look at the Welsh team of the 1970s for some nice crisp, fast and accurate passing along the line (and they were amateurs.) Why is this basic skill of the game less evident in the era of professional rugby?

[Danno]

passing, decision making, defence ?....whats the view?

Don't know how his decision making is in defence, but he's not afraid to get stuck in which is nice from a winger. Passing isn't his strong suit, but he's not someone you want passing too often in the end.

It's hard to believe that a three quarter who is a poor passer could get close to an international XV. Yet it is not uncommon at the top level now. Take a look at the Welsh team of the 1970s for some nice crisp, fast and accurate passing along the line (and they were amateurs.) Why is this basic skill of the game less evident in the era of professional rugby?

I fear I'm being a touch too reductive, but it seems to boil down to the idea that, unless you're NZ sans Nonu, defence wins games, so you want a lump in the midfield to help break that line.

Look at Aki, Vaketawa, Tuilagi, Roberts, Basteraeu, etc. etc. They're all at it.

Also Nonu.

[FKAS]

passing, decision making, defence ?....whats the view?

Don't know how his decision making is in defence, but he's not afraid to get stuck in which is nice from a winger. Passing isn't his strong suit, but he's not someone you want passing too often in the end.

It's hard to believe that a three quarter who is a poor passer could get close to an international XV. Yet it is not uncommon at the top level now. Take a look at the Welsh team of the 1970s for some nice crisp, fast and accurate passing along the line (and they were amateurs.) Why is this basic skill of the game less evident in the era of professional rugby?

Pace of the game and defensive organisation are now different level. In the 1970s you didn't have sports science developing a backline who are all 15 stone plus, zero body fat units and a defensive pattern that saw them blitz and limit time on the ball to a second. Professionalism for you. In the 70s you'd never see a prop pass from the base but it's a standard skill now for when the scrum half is trapped in.

[Raggs]

Yeah, the comparisons to the game 50 years ago are completely pointless. Defences now are just at another level, not to mention the pace of the game. It's like when Jngf posted a game from 1985 that apparently highlighted the mobility of the backrow. The first 15 minutes had a total of 4 tackles and 6 passes.

And if you want a giggle, watch the very first pass here:

There's some slightly more slick passing later from the Irish, but there's also a lot that you'd be embarrassed to see from the pros now. I'm only 5 minutes in, but I'm a lot happier with the game today than what I've seen so far.