Australia Tour Squad

[twitchy]

If not it does seem odd to be lacking fitness especially for a low bodyweight player like a 9.

[Mellsblue]

I think we need to get our hands on GPS, heart rate data etc before we conclude that he’s not fit enough.

[Puja]

I think we need to get our hands on GPS, heart rate data etc before we conclude that he’s not fit enough.

I mean, if it's not a fitness issue, then I want to know what he's doing walking to a breakdown after a linebreak, in a situation that he would be running to in the first half. It'd be worse to not be a fitness issue!

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I think we need to get our hands on GPS, heart rate data etc before we conclude that he’s not fit enough.

I mean, if it's not a fitness issue, then I want to know what he's doing walking to a breakdown after a linebreak, in a situation that he would be running to in the first half. It'd be worse to not be a fitness issue!

Puja

He might be the fittest scrum half in the Prem but do more in 50mins than all the rest do in 70mins.

[Which Tyler]

He might be the fittest scrum half in the Prem but do more in 50mins than all the rest do in 70mins.

Which would still mean that he's not fit enough to play like that for more than 50, even if he knows he's likely to have to, costing his team matches - which would mean that he's not good enough at judging where and when to expend his energy.

Personally, I can't say I've noticed it, but I've not really watched much club rugby this year.

[Banquo]

I think we need to get our hands on GPS, heart rate data etc before we conclude that he’s not fit enough.

I mean, if it's not a fitness issue, then I want to know what he's doing walking to a breakdown after a linebreak, in a situation that he would be running to in the first half. It'd be worse to not be a fitness issue!

Puja

have to say this discussion has started from conjecture that Mitchell may have missed out due to fitness to 'that unfit bastard Mitchell has cost Saints the premiership'*....when he has been one of their most productive players all season.

*minor hyperbole for effect

[Mellsblue]

He might be the fittest scrum half in the Prem but do more in 50mins than all the rest do in 70mins.

Which would still mean that he's not fit enough to play like that for more than 50, even if he knows he's likely to have to, costing his team matches - which would mean that he's not good enough at judging where and when to expend his energy.

Personally, I can't say I've noticed it, but I've not really watched much club rugby this year.

Which is completely different to not being fit enough to play for England, which is what we were discussing.

[Puja]

I think we need to get our hands on GPS, heart rate data etc before we conclude that he’s not fit enough.

I mean, if it's not a fitness issue, then I want to know what he's doing walking to a breakdown after a linebreak, in a situation that he would be running to in the first half. It'd be worse to not be a fitness issue!

Puja

have to say this discussion has started from conjecture that Mitchell may have missed out due to fitness to 'that unfit bastard Mitchell has cost Saints the premiership'*....when he has been one of their most productive players all season.

*minor hyperbole for effect

Pretty major hyperbole, as I've said that I'd have him starting for England right now. He's certainly the form 9 in the country and I'd take him in an instant, but then it is noted that I want a passer first and foremost.

Puja

[Banquo]

He might be the fittest scrum half in the Prem but do more in 50mins than all the rest do in 70mins.

Which would still mean that he's not fit enough to play like that for more than 50, even if he knows he's likely to have to, costing his team matches - which would mean that he's not good enough at judging where and when to expend his energy.

Personally, I can't say I've noticed it, but I've not really watched much club rugby this year.

His/saints last 10 games he averages 68 mins playing (and that includes two subs at 50 mins when Saints were well ahead). I reckon that's quite high for any 9- Tigers starting 9 averages c 57 mins and that's with three rotating.

But IF he is struggling, and he knows he's got to do 60+ then if it is possible to conserve energy then he needs to .....but tricky if the plan is to play at tempo tbh.

[Banquo]

I mean, if it's not a fitness issue, then I want to know what he's doing walking to a breakdown after a linebreak, in a situation that he would be running to in the first half. It'd be worse to not be a fitness issue!

Puja

have to say this discussion has started from conjecture that Mitchell may have missed out due to fitness to 'that unfit bastard Mitchell has cost Saints the premiership'*....when he has been one of their most productive players all season.

*minor hyperbole for effect

Pretty major hyperbole, as I've said that I'd have him starting for England right now. He's certainly the form 9 in the country and I'd take him in an instant, but then it is noted that I want a passer first and foremost.

Puja

weird as you are leading the charge* on him being unfit and that's why he's dropped

*hyperbole level to be determined

[switchskier]

So of the league game, plus playoff loss to Tigers, Mitchell started 23 of 27 games, missing 4 altogether. He played the full 80 minutes 6 times, abd only played less than 60 minutes twice (both big wins). By the end of the season he may just have been tired, especially given last season he was splitting time much more.

Interestingly the only scrum-half to do more minutes than him was Care.

[Puja]

have to say this discussion has started from conjecture that Mitchell may have missed out due to fitness to 'that unfit bastard Mitchell has cost Saints the premiership'*....when he has been one of their most productive players all season.

*minor hyperbole for effect

Pretty major hyperbole, as I've said that I'd have him starting for England right now. He's certainly the form 9 in the country and I'd take him in an instant, but then it is noted that I want a passer first and foremost.

Puja

weird as you are leading the charge* on him being unfit and that's why he's dropped

*hyperbole level to be determined

Receipts:

No Mitchell is the main shock to me. He's had a phenomenal season, waaaay above what JVP's currently bringing. The only thing he's lacking is the fitness, which admittedly is quite a big thing, but I'm shocked that he's left out.

Don't think it's too inconsistent to say his fitness for Northampton's style is concerning and I want him as England's 9 at the same time. I'm willing to take one flaw in a player if it means we avoid picking players with several flaws!

Puja

[Puja]

So of the league game, plus playoff loss to Tigers, Mitchell started 23 of 27 games, missing 4 altogether. He played the full 80 minutes 6 times, abd only played less than 60 minutes twice (both big wins). By the end of the season he may just have been tired, especially given last season he was splitting time much more.

Interestingly the only scrum-half to do more minutes than him was Care.

That plus his minutes per game suggests that Saints just really didn't trust James (or at the very least thought he was a significant downgrade on even a tired Mitchell), which seems bizarre as I quite like him as a player.

Puja

[Banquo]

Pretty major hyperbole, as I've said that I'd have him starting for England right now. He's certainly the form 9 in the country and I'd take him in an instant, but then it is noted that I want a passer first and foremost.

Puja

weird as you are leading the charge* on him being unfit and that's why he's dropped

*hyperbole level to be determined

Receipts:

No Mitchell is the main shock to me. He's had a phenomenal season, waaaay above what JVP's currently bringing. The only thing he's lacking is the fitness, which admittedly is quite a big thing, but I'm shocked that he's left out.

Don't think it's too inconsistent to say his fitness for Northampton's style is concerning and I want him as England's 9 at the same time. I'm willing to take one flaw in a player if it means we avoid picking players with several flaws!

Puja

Only pulling your chain

[Banquo]

So of the league game, plus playoff loss to Tigers, Mitchell started 23 of 27 games, missing 4 altogether. He played the full 80 minutes 6 times, abd only played less than 60 minutes twice (both big wins). By the end of the season he may just have been tired, especially given last season he was splitting time much more.

Interestingly the only scrum-half to do more minutes than him was Care.

That plus his minutes per game suggests that Saints just really didn't trust James (or at the very least thought he was a significant downgrade on even a tired Mitchell), which seems bizarre as I quite like him as a player.

Puja

agreed on that.

[Puja]

Only pulling your chain

It's mean when you know how gullible I am! Mod! MOD! He's being meeean to meeee!

Puja

[Adam_P]

As said above, without seeing any stats it's impossible to come to any real conclusion. It might be that every other 9 in the Prem would also blow up after 50/60 mins playing at the tempo Saints do, or sooner.

[Spiffy]

Rather strange discussion. How difficult is it for a professional rugby player to get as fit as his team mates? If he can't do it then why not? Is he really abnormally unfit anyway? Or is this a myth generated on Rugby Rebels?

[Oakboy]

I think Mitchell is more likely to have been omitted because he does not box-kick often or well enough.

[Puja]

Rather strange discussion. How difficult is it for a professional rugby player to get as fit as his team mates? If he can't do it then why not? Is he really abnormally unfit anyway? Or is this a myth generated on Rugby Rebels?

Well, a 9's going to be running a lot more than pretty much every other teammate (in Saints gameplan, anyway, not sure about Wigglesworth), as he needs to be at every breakdown. So I'd say a 9's got to be fitter than his teammates and take on the responsibility of doing the extra if he wants to play the game the way Northampton do.

I will note that I'm not calling him "abnormally unfit". Just that I've noticed him blowing hard and having to walk to breakdowns because he's given everything and that compromising Northampton's attack, which isn't a great look for someone with international aspirations. I feel like I'm being asked to defend a lot of positions that I'm not actually taking here!

Puja

[Banyans]

Just incase anyone wonders I did not start this myth, only questioned it may be a reason he's not being picked for England since other posters had mentioned his early subbing. I've not watched him closely myself so can't really say what his fitness is like.
As a lowly peasant scrum half myself who is not exactly gifted at any element of rugby other than being able to keep up (I actually enjoy pre season) it's pretty much the only reason I get gametime especially at my age.

[Stom]

I think Mitchell is more likely to have been omitted because he does not box-kick often or well enough.

Yet Randall is probably the worst box kicker available…

I think, considering care coming back, Eddie has decided he wants a sniping 9.

[Mikey Brown]

I hadn’t realised there were even any scrum-halves available that don’t fairly routinely leave the odd ball sitting at the back of a ruck for a while. I find we’ve got such close camera angles a lot of the time on TV that you can’t really see why/where they were.

I did notice it with Mitchell recently, but only after having seen it mentioned on here. So who knows, but I’d like to see England give him a chance to show one way or the other. Youngs got given time to (im)prove his fitness, but maybe that was down to lack of alternatives.

Are we intending to play the sort of game (or even capable of it) that suits his skill-set?

[Banquo]

Just incase anyone wonders I did not start this myth, only questioned it may be a reason he's not being picked for England since other posters had mentioned his early subbing. I've not watched him closely myself so can't really say what his fitness is like.
As a lowly peasant scrum half myself who is not exactly gifted at any element of rugby other than being able to keep up (I actually enjoy pre season) it's pretty much the only reason I get gametime especially at my age.

....odd, cos if anything he gets subbed later than most!!

[Spiffy]

Just incase anyone wonders I did not start this myth, only questioned it may be a reason he's not being picked for England since other posters had mentioned his early subbing. I've not watched him closely myself so can't really say what his fitness is like.
As a lowly peasant scrum half myself who is not exactly gifted at any element of rugby other than being able to keep up (I actually enjoy pre season) it's pretty much the only reason I get gametime especially at my age.

....odd, cos if anything he gets subbed later than most!!

Now come on Banquo - WTF have hard facts to do with anything here.
Mitchell has been declared unfit by the cognoscenti of Rugby Rebels, and that's it. He will still be regarded as such in 10 year's time, even if he plays 80 min of every game in the meantime.
It's like the old Tom Croft luxury giraffe/show boater saga that ran for years, to cite just one example. You can't un-ring a bell.