Australia v England - second test

[Oakboy]

What I was getting at was Smith's eye for a gap and his natural inclination to exploit space. In both the Aus matches, as I remember them, that important part of his game has been largely/totally missing. It's reaching the stage where he either has to totally adapt to a new way of playing or not start. He has a lot to offer but most of his game is not being used. I don't understand that waste, especially if (according to statistics) we are kicking less.

[Mikey Brown]

Seeing clips of the Genge incident(s) again I'm doubling down on my initial reaction. He's a fucking idiot. I'll normally go along with "if you don't get caught, and you wind up your opposition then job done" but with the scrutiny over Hill's actions last week it was a stupid risk to be taking.

His goading of Hooper directly in front of the ref after the England try was typically classless but no real impact to it other than grabbing the refs attention. The fact the ref then missed/ignored him shoving his elbow in to the back of a players head and then in to to their throat was just complete dumb luck- nothing to do with being subtle or crafty. Honestly if it had even been a red I'd have struggled to protest much just on the grounds of "what the fuck were you even trying to achieve?"

Imagine that game if Genge had been binned early on. He was rampant in the loose and the scrum was going well. He's really grown as a player and I guess he did get away with it, but I hate that cowardly baiting of the opposition.

[p/d]

Agree. I think White’s moustache saved him

[Banquo]

It still upsets me that we never got to see a Stuart Abbott, Ollie Smith centre partnership.

I thought we were decent today with room for improvement. Injuries permitting I would probably keep the same side for next week but I'd put Marchant back in.

Abbott/Smith could have done the lot. Shame it never worked out for those two.

Would anyone be surprised if Eddie brought Marchant back in on the wing with the re-emergence of his three centre selection he looked at in the AIs?

I'd settle for Abbott and Costello tbh

[Banquo]

see an instinctive player become, well, average.

Spot on.

See also George Ford (though he hasn't really been average).
What are the common factors?

[Banquo]

What I was getting at was Smith's eye for a gap and his natural inclination to exploit space. In both the Aus matches, as I remember them, that important part of his game has been largely/totally missing. It's reaching the stage where he either has to totally adapt to a new way of playing or not start. He has a lot to offer but most of his game is not being used. I don't understand that waste, especially if (according to statistics) we are kicking less.

The gaps don't exist for very long in intl rugby would be one factor.

Not sure we are kicking less? Kicked 34 times yesterday; we kick less than France, but they kick a lot.

[Banquo]

Seeing clips of the Genge incident(s) again I'm doubling down on my initial reaction. He's a fucking idiot. I'll normally go along with "if you don't get caught, and you wind up your opposition then job done" but with the scrutiny over Hill's actions last week it was a stupid risk to be taking.

His goading of Hooper directly in front of the ref after the England try was typically classless but no real impact to it other than grabbing the refs attention. The fact the ref then missed/ignored him shoving his elbow in to the back of a players head and then in to to their throat was just complete dumb luck- nothing to do with being subtle or crafty. Honestly if it had even been a red I'd have struggled to protest much just on the grounds of "what the fuck were you even trying to achieve?"

Imagine that game if Genge had been binned early on. He was rampant in the loose and the scrum was going well. He's really grown as a player and I guess he did get away with it, but I hate that cowardly baiting of the opposition.

he's just a bit dim tbh.

[p/d]

It still upsets me that we never got to see a Stuart Abbott, Ollie Smith centre partnership.

I thought we were decent today with room for improvement. Injuries permitting I would probably keep the same side for next week but I'd put Marchant back in.

Abbott/Smith could have done the lot. Shame it never worked out for those two.

Would anyone be surprised if Eddie brought Marchant back in on the wing with the re-emergence of his three centre selection he looked at in the AIs?

I'd settle for Abbott and Costello tbh

Oakboy will appreciate that

[Banquo]

Abbott/Smith could have done the lot. Shame it never worked out for those two.

Would anyone be surprised if Eddie brought Marchant back in on the wing with the re-emergence of his three centre selection he looked at in the AIs?

I'd settle for Abbott and Costello tbh

Oakboy will appreciate that

Don't pretend you aren't in that glasshouse, drinking a snowball.

[Puja]

He did?!?!?

He didn't? I thought there was a season where he regressed a bit and struggled getting game time ahead of James Lang. Please note before the board bursts into full hyperbole, I'm not saying he's not a very good player, I'm simply saying that it's not unheard of for him to have an occasional run of bad form like a human does and this isn't some unprecedented fall caused solely by Jones/Farrell.

Puja

It’s longer than a month ago so classed as the vague mists of generations ago as far as my long term memory goes but I don’t remember it being pretty rubbish. All subjective and dependent on what you’d classify as pretty rubbish, I suppose.

Same. We need a Quins fan to actually give a decent report - was I imagining a period in his 2nd or 3rd season where he couldn't get past James Lang?

Puja

[Banquo]

He didn't? I thought there was a season where he regressed a bit and struggled getting game time ahead of James Lang. Please note before the board bursts into full hyperbole, I'm not saying he's not a very good player, I'm simply saying that it's not unheard of for him to have an occasional run of bad form like a human does and this isn't some unprecedented fall caused solely by Jones/Farrell.

Puja

It’s longer than a month ago so classed as the vague mists of generations ago as far as my long term memory goes but I don’t remember it being pretty rubbish. All subjective and dependent on what you’d classify as pretty rubbish, I suppose.

Same. We need a Quins fan to actually give a decent report - was I imagining a period in his 2nd or 3rd season where he couldn't get past James Lang?

Puja

I think the season before last he was benched a fair few times, notably when his goal kicking was in the 60%'s... which has also happened in the second half of this season.

[Oakboy]

What I was getting at was Smith's eye for a gap and his natural inclination to exploit space. In both the Aus matches, as I remember them, that important part of his game has been largely/totally missing. It's reaching the stage where he either has to totally adapt to a new way of playing or not start. He has a lot to offer but most of his game is not being used. I don't understand that waste, especially if (according to statistics) we are kicking less.

The gaps don't exist for very long in intl rugby would be one factor.

Not sure we are kicking less? Kicked 34 times yesterday; we kick less than France, but they kick a lot.

Good point but, he has scored 4 tries for England (I think) and stepped through gaps to create for others. I suppose his running threat is being countered by top opposition.

It's just that he seems to have stopped trying - by instruction or what, who knows. I'm just concerned that he's being set up to fail.

[Mr Mwenda]

Dunno, I recall a clever instinctive kick towards the end of the game. I suspect that Smith is also much more heavily analysed and the opposition are adapting to him.

[Mellsblue]

I think it’s mostly the lack of threat outside him. Farrell isn’t going to attract any attention as a runner, Porter didn’t (that may be just because we barely passed it to him), Nowell, Coka and Steward aren’t going going to gas anyone wide and we don’t use our relatively massive fullback to hit any lines off 10 or 12. If I were the oppo defence coach I’d set up very narrow knowing pace won’t trouble on the edge and still be very happy I won’t have to react to many angles or lines being cut on the gain line, and, to my mind, the Oz d was set up this way.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Seeing clips of the Genge incident(s) again I'm doubling down on my initial reaction. He's a fucking idiot. I'll normally go along with "if you don't get caught, and you wind up your opposition then job done" but with the scrutiny over Hill's actions last week it was a stupid risk to be taking.

His goading of Hooper directly in front of the ref after the England try was typically classless but no real impact to it other than grabbing the refs attention. The fact the ref then missed/ignored him shoving his elbow in to the back of a players head and then in to to their throat was just complete dumb luck- nothing to do with being subtle or crafty. Honestly if it had even been a red I'd have struggled to protest much just on the grounds of "what the fuck were you even trying to achieve?"

Imagine that game if Genge had been binned early on. He was rampant in the loose and the scrum was going well. He's really grown as a player and I guess he did get away with it, but I hate that cowardly baiting of the opposition.

A red card for leaning your forearm on someone? Wow! Never more than a penalty

[Mikey Brown]

Seeing clips of the Genge incident(s) again I'm doubling down on my initial reaction. He's a fucking idiot. I'll normally go along with "if you don't get caught, and you wind up your opposition then job done" but with the scrutiny over Hill's actions last week it was a stupid risk to be taking.

His goading of Hooper directly in front of the ref after the England try was typically classless but no real impact to it other than grabbing the refs attention. The fact the ref then missed/ignored him shoving his elbow in to the back of a players head and then in to to their throat was just complete dumb luck- nothing to do with being subtle or crafty. Honestly if it had even been a red I'd have struggled to protest much just on the grounds of "what the fuck were you even trying to achieve?"

Imagine that game if Genge had been binned early on. He was rampant in the loose and the scrum was going well. He's really grown as a player and I guess he did get away with it, but I hate that cowardly baiting of the opposition.

A red card for leaning your forearm on someone? Wow! Never more than a penalty

I’m saying if a ref viewed that as an elbow in the back of the head followed by a forearm on the throat of a prone player I wouldn’t have much of an argument. It was dumb and he’s lucky he didn’t cost the side, particularly as he was playing so well.

[Banquo]

What I was getting at was Smith's eye for a gap and his natural inclination to exploit space. In both the Aus matches, as I remember them, that important part of his game has been largely/totally missing. It's reaching the stage where he either has to totally adapt to a new way of playing or not start. He has a lot to offer but most of his game is not being used. I don't understand that waste, especially if (according to statistics) we are kicking less.

The gaps don't exist for very long in intl rugby would be one factor.

Not sure we are kicking less? Kicked 34 times yesterday; we kick less than France, but they kick a lot.

Good point but, he has scored 4 tries for England (I think) and stepped through gaps to create for others. I suppose his running threat is being countered by top opposition.

It's just that he seems to have stopped trying - by instruction or what, who knows. I'm just concerned that he's being set up to fail.

We aren't allowed to say that . But like Ford before him- who can also run a bit- unless the defenders are being 'occupied' he's not going to be getting much space and even less time at this level. Broken record but needs runners around him- not necessarily 12, to be clear; our method of working round this seems to be the set plays as highlighted in the last game with him and Faz interchanging and using two potential passers to confuse- but imo that was being done too deep, a bit telegraphed, and lacking directness; we saw hardly any of that yesterday for some reason, as we simplified it a bit by primarily using forwards to make dents. TBH, notwithstanding the structural and personnel issues, I do think Smith tries to do too much himself, and probably just needs to relax and play a bit more orthodoxly for while.

[FKAS]

Seeing clips of the Genge incident(s) again I'm doubling down on my initial reaction. He's a fucking idiot. I'll normally go along with "if you don't get caught, and you wind up your opposition then job done" but with the scrutiny over Hill's actions last week it was a stupid risk to be taking.

His goading of Hooper directly in front of the ref after the England try was typically classless but no real impact to it other than grabbing the refs attention. The fact the ref then missed/ignored him shoving his elbow in to the back of a players head and then in to to their throat was just complete dumb luck- nothing to do with being subtle or crafty. Honestly if it had even been a red I'd have struggled to protest much just on the grounds of "what the fuck were you even trying to achieve?"

Imagine that game if Genge had been binned early on. He was rampant in the loose and the scrum was going well. He's really grown as a player and I guess he did get away with it, but I hate that cowardly baiting of the opposition.

A red card for leaning your forearm on someone? Wow! Never more than a penalty

I’m saying if a ref viewed that as an elbow in the back of the head followed by a forearm on the throat of a prone player I wouldn’t have much of an argument. It was dumb and he’s lucky he didn’t cost the side, particularly as he was playing so well.

If a 19 stone prop smashes an elbow into the back of your head and then a forearm into your face you stay down afterwards. Genge just pushes his face into the grass, age old but of niggle. There was more than a bit of niggle and sledging going on from both sides as well. Ellis does love a bit of the verbal stuff so he's always going to partake.

[Spiffy]

Seeing clips of the Genge incident(s) again I'm doubling down on my initial reaction. He's a fucking idiot. I'll normally go along with "if you don't get caught, and you wind up your opposition then job done" but with the scrutiny over Hill's actions last week it was a stupid risk to be taking.

His goading of Hooper directly in front of the ref after the England try was typically classless but no real impact to it other than grabbing the refs attention. The fact the ref then missed/ignored him shoving his elbow in to the back of a players head and then in to to their throat was just complete dumb luck- nothing to do with being subtle or crafty. Honestly if it had even been a red I'd have struggled to protest much just on the grounds of "what the fuck were you even trying to achieve?"

Imagine that game if Genge had been binned early on. He was rampant in the loose and the scrum was going well. He's really grown as a player and I guess he did get away with it, but I hate that cowardly baiting of the opposition.

he's just a bit dim tbh.

The Genge forearm to the throat and head were a tad beyond just a bit dim. Got away with it too.

[FKAS]

I think it’s mostly the lack of threat outside him. Farrell isn’t going to attract any attention as a runner, Porter didn’t (that may be just because we barely passed it to him), Nowell, Coka and Steward aren’t going going to gas anyone wide and we don’t use our relatively massive fullback to hit any lines off 10 or 12. If I were the oppo defence coach I’d set up very narrow knowing pace won’t trouble on the edge and still be very happy I won’t have to react to many angles or lines being cut on the gain line, and, to my mind, the Oz d was set up this way.

He gets a relative arm ride with Farrell taking the short passes and working with the forwards. Smith gets it out the back when he wants it. It's hard for some of our players to attract defenders because they rarely touch the ball. Crap grubbers through might have been better spent by Smith giving the likes of Porter and Freeman some harder carries, they are both upper 15/lower 16 stone size blokes. Hit them on a short line and give Australia's centres something to think about. Marchant barely touched the ball last weekend either and he is class. Smith needs to find a way to work through his options a bit more.

[Banquo]

Seeing clips of the Genge incident(s) again I'm doubling down on my initial reaction. He's a fucking idiot. I'll normally go along with "if you don't get caught, and you wind up your opposition then job done" but with the scrutiny over Hill's actions last week it was a stupid risk to be taking.

His goading of Hooper directly in front of the ref after the England try was typically classless but no real impact to it other than grabbing the refs attention. The fact the ref then missed/ignored him shoving his elbow in to the back of a players head and then in to to their throat was just complete dumb luck- nothing to do with being subtle or crafty. Honestly if it had even been a red I'd have struggled to protest much just on the grounds of "what the fuck were you even trying to achieve?"

Imagine that game if Genge had been binned early on. He was rampant in the loose and the scrum was going well. He's really grown as a player and I guess he did get away with it, but I hate that cowardly baiting of the opposition.

he's just a bit dim tbh.

The Genge forearm to the throat and head were a tad beyond just a bit dim. Got away with it too.

It was a general, rather than a specific

[Mikey Brown]

A red card for leaning your forearm on someone? Wow! Never more than a penalty

I’m saying if a ref viewed that as an elbow in the back of the head followed by a forearm on the throat of a prone player I wouldn’t have much of an argument. It was dumb and he’s lucky he didn’t cost the side, particularly as he was playing so well.

If a 19 stone prop smashes an elbow into the back of your head and then a forearm into your face you stay down afterwards. Genge just pushes his face into the grass, age old but of niggle. There was more than a bit of niggle and sledging going on from both sides as well. Ellis does love a bit of the verbal stuff so he's always going to partake.

Does any of that make it not a stupid move that could easily have gotten him a card? I hadn't thought this would be so contentious. We see red cards all the time for far less malicious incidents than that.

I'd like to think if we're going to stay on the right side of the penalty count in the third test we'll have a better sense of where that line is.

[Banquo]

I think it’s mostly the lack of threat outside him. Farrell isn’t going to attract any attention as a runner, Porter didn’t (that may be just because we barely passed it to him), Nowell, Coka and Steward aren’t going going to gas anyone wide and we don’t use our relatively massive fullback to hit any lines off 10 or 12. If I were the oppo defence coach I’d set up very narrow knowing pace won’t trouble on the edge and still be very happy I won’t have to react to many angles or lines being cut on the gain line, and, to my mind, the Oz d was set up this way.

He gets a relative arm ride with Farrell taking the short passes and working with the forwards. Smith gets it out the back when he wants it. It's hard for some of our players to attract defenders because they rarely touch the ball. Crap grubbers through might have been better spent by Smith giving the likes of Porter and Freeman some harder carries, they are both upper 15/lower 16 stone size blokes. Hit them on a short line and give Australia's centres something to think about. Marchant barely touched the ball last weekend either and he is class. Smith needs to find a way to work through his options a bit more.

No idea what's in the England playbook this week, and what options had been prepared for Smith to work through; the only insight I have is that we played entirely differently in phase play this week compared to last; one wrap around from memory and Smith at first receiver nearly all the time. Looked like the Tigers/Sarries play book this week tbh.
Looking at the stats- reflects how differently we/they played- we kicked nearly twice as much though we had more possession this week! Some of Faz's touches were kicks from the backfield as well. Frankly, an IC that carries that little is a little odd
1st test- Smith- 31 touches, 6 kicks, 23 passes, 4 runs Faz- 23 touches, 3 kicks, 18 passes, 2 runs (Care 5 kicks)
2nd test- Smith- 24 touches 10 kicks, 13 passes, 1 run Faz- 12 touches, 5 kicks, 6 passes, 1 run (JVP 8 kicks)

This question is really about how much licence to play do they have- and we all know what happened to Care when he went off piste. But it was a distinct shift in how we set up.

[Banquo]

A red card for leaning your forearm on someone? Wow! Never more than a penalty

I’m saying if a ref viewed that as an elbow in the back of the head followed by a forearm on the throat of a prone player I wouldn’t have much of an argument. It was dumb and he’s lucky he didn’t cost the side, particularly as he was playing so well.

If a 19 stone prop smashes an elbow into the back of your head and then a forearm into your face you stay down afterwards. Genge just pushes his face into the grass, age old but of niggle. There was more than a bit of niggle and sledging going on from both sides as well. Ellis does love a bit of the verbal stuff so he's always going to partake.

doesn't make it any less dim, at a time when we were on top anyway.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I’m saying if a ref viewed that as an elbow in the back of the head followed by a forearm on the throat of a prone player I wouldn’t have much of an argument. It was dumb and he’s lucky he didn’t cost the side, particularly as he was playing so well.

If a 19 stone prop smashes an elbow into the back of your head and then a forearm into your face you stay down afterwards. Genge just pushes his face into the grass, age old but of niggle. There was more than a bit of niggle and sledging going on from both sides as well. Ellis does love a bit of the verbal stuff so he's always going to partake.

doesn't make it any less dim, at a time when we were on top anyway.

It’s a bit dim, but that’s not the argument. It’s over it being anything other than a penalty. Which it isn’t. It’s dim and annoying as we’d turned the ball over. Then again who doesn’t take an opportunity to give a scrum half a bit of rough.