Australia v England - second test

[Banquo]

Out of interest, which clubs operate with a playmaking 12?

[Banquo]

Prior to this series Smith had played 6 tests on the bounce without Farrell and I can’t say he looked better for being without him.

(young) 10 looks a bit average in poor team shock. Chicken meet egg. Personally, I don't think his strengths suit the players he's playing with, as I think you hinted at before. Frankly, Faz at 10 is a better fit if we want to play like Saturday last, and they just dont look a good combo to me....but see earlier comments re poor team.

[Mikey Brown]

It’s like we’ve all got Smith/Farrell Jngf-syndrome.

Come back buddy. I want to know which way round you’d put Willis and Ludlam if paired together.

[Banquo]

It’s like we’ve all got Smith/Farrell Jngf-syndrome.

Come back buddy. I want to know which way round you’d put Willis and Ludlam if paired together.

lol. yes, sucked into gaslighting by Faz. Kinda distracts from other key issues I guess. And the other point about them is....who else?

[FKAS]

Out of interest, which clubs operate with a playmaking 12?

Fair point.

London Irish with van Rensburg.
Quins half do with Andre, frankly he can do a bit of everything (there's a reason he's the highest paid 12 in the league).
Gloucester with Atkinson or Twelvetrees.
Bath do when Redpath isn't broken.

Sarries, Chiefs and Sale all play with an additional playmaker at 13.

Saints use Furbank from 15 and Hutchinson at 13. Bristol play heavily off 10 or throw it to a superstar and hope something happens. Tigers use Kelly and 15, one of the reasons the attack went to crap towards the end of the season was that there was no like for like Kelly replacement. Newcastle, well who knows their attacking structure is shite.

[Which Tyler]

Bath do when Redpath isn't broken.

And when he is.

I'd class Devoto as a lay making 12 at Exeter as well, btw; even if they use Slade at 13 more for that role

[FKAS]

Smith doesn’t want it out the back, at least he doesn’t for Quins where he’s shown the form that’s got him in the England shirt. He wants it at the gainline with numerous options so he can put others into gaps or put himself through a gap. Tbf, he can only hit Porter and the like on a short line if they’re running the said line, which they’re not. He’s a new no10 in the attack coach’s system and with a senior player and dominant personality next to him, it seems strange to blame him for it all.
You can attract players without the ball. In fact, it’s key to any attack system.
I find it interesting that Smith can consistently find players running in to space at Quins, with supposedly inferior players, but struggles with the cream of England.

And Ford doesn't like playing on the gain line picking passes?

A) that's harder to do at international level which is partly why England try and attack the way they do. Defence is easier to coach than attack and the quality of players is much higher.

B) at international level you have to accept that the attack won't be built around you and adjust how you play to what the team needs. Ford did this for years effectively and Smith can as well.

C) Porter ran the cut back line a fair bit for Smith who generally looked for Steward further out or the inside shoulder to Nowell. England don't really seem to use the 13 enough even on the rare occasions Manu is fit.

What’s your point on Ford?!? Not everything is about or criticism of Leicester players. Again, I’ll happily argue Ford is the best 10 in the world.

A) England were more successful when they didn’t play to this system… even at international level… numerous test teams employ more traditional systems and they’ve all scored more points against us that we have over 80 mins this year. Other than Koroibete and Kerevi, I wouldn’t say the Aus backs are any better than those in the top Prem team. Plus, if the oppo are better quality than you’d hope the Eng players around Smith would be better quality…

B) Once again, I don’t want it built solely around him but a nod to his talents would be a help. Ford hasn’t really played in this new system other than the 6N when we lost to everyone but Italy so, your comparison is moot. Even when Ford did last play in a system more suited to him he was still stymied. More importantly, and to the actual point I was making, you were arguing that England were set up to give Smith more time with the ball out the back and my point was this isn’t where he operates at his best.

C) Don’t remember seeing that much, tbh.

Sorry was a badly made point about Smith needing to learn how to adapt his game. Ford would rather play close to the line, attacking rugby but hasn't always found himself in a team that could do that. He adapted and developed other areas of his game so he could fit into the playmaker role England had. Smith has got to learn the same lessons and quickly as the world cup is soon.

This weekend was better than last weekend for Smith. A little more patience and less eager kicking and I think he could have a better game again next week.

[FKAS]

Bath do when Redpath isn't broken.

And when he is.

I'd class Devoto as a lay making 12 at Exeter as well, btw; even if they use Slade at 13 more for that role

When Redpath is broken it looked to my occasional viewing of them that they used de Glanville and Ojomoh rather than just off 12. I'll differ to your better knowledge of their play though.

I'd actually forgotten about Devoto, he had no luck at all last season. Yes a playmaking 12.

[Banquo]

Out of interest, which clubs operate with a playmaking 12?

Fair point.

London Irish with van Rensburg.
Quins half do with Andre, frankly he can do a bit of everything (there's a reason he's the highest paid 12 in the league).
Gloucester with Atkinson or Twelvetrees.
Bath do when Redpath isn't broken.

Sarries, Chiefs and Sale all play with an additional playmaker at 13.

Saints use Furbank from 15 and Hutchinson at 13. Bristol play heavily off 10 or throw it to a superstar and hope something happens. Tigers use Kelly and 15, one of the reasons the attack went to crap towards the end of the season was that there was no like for like Kelly replacement. Newcastle, well who knows their attacking structure is shite.

The obvious one would be the ex Wasp, Gopperth- a true second receiver at 12, albeit with decent running skills for an old little fella.
Andre and Atkinson are obviously reasonably skilled, but primarily get over the gainline. Must confess to not having seen much of Van Rensburg,
Is Steward used as a second playmaker.... and I'm not sure Furbank or Hutchinson are used much in that role, Hutchinson when at 13 plays a very orthodox oc job.
So...not many is the straight answer. Yet we seem a bit obsessed by it.

[Banquo]

Bath do when Redpath isn't broken.

And when he is.

I'd class Devoto as a lay making 12 at Exeter as well, btw; even if they use Slade at 13 more for that role

Devoto when fit mainly hits it up from what I've seen; no issue with that though.

Who is Bath's 12 when Redpath doesn't play, not paid attention tbh

[Raggs]

Wasps also often have a playmaking 15 as well.

[p/d]

Playmaking. What’s that, able to kick and pass?

So no Ford/Burns or Simmonds/Skinner? ..yet

[Spiffy]

Playmaking. What’s that, able to kick and pass?

So no Ford/Burns or Simmonds/Skinner? ..yet

I think it's knowing when and how to do it that's the key - game reading.

[jimKRFC]

Out of interest, which clubs operate with a playmaking 12?

Bristol use P'OC and Below in that role at times, Frisch did it as well, and the new guy (James Williams) should be to as he plays 10.

Ioan Lloyd will be the crash ball option.

[FKAS]

Out of interest, which clubs operate with a playmaking 12?

Fair point.

London Irish with van Rensburg.
Quins half do with Andre, frankly he can do a bit of everything (there's a reason he's the highest paid 12 in the league).
Gloucester with Atkinson or Twelvetrees.
Bath do when Redpath isn't broken.

Sarries, Chiefs and Sale all play with an additional playmaker at 13.

Saints use Furbank from 15 and Hutchinson at 13. Bristol play heavily off 10 or throw it to a superstar and hope something happens. Tigers use Kelly and 15, one of the reasons the attack went to crap towards the end of the season was that there was no like for like Kelly replacement. Newcastle, well who knows their attacking structure is shite.

The obvious one would be the ex Wasp, Gopperth- a true second receiver at 12, albeit with decent running skills for an old little fella.
Andre and Atkinson are obviously reasonably skilled, but primarily get over the gainline. Must confess to not having seen much of Van Rensburg,
Is Steward used as a second playmaker.... and I'm not sure Furbank or Hutchinson are used much in that role, Hutchinson when at 13 plays a very orthodox oc job.
So...not many is the straight answer. Yet we seem a bit obsessed by it.

Knew I'd missed another obvious one, Gopperth.

Steward/Kelly and Hutchinson/Furbank are probably more link players than secondary playmakers. Kelly gets used to run the first receiver Farrell style move so Ford can drift out the back when he wants. Steward is the guy who gets it out wider on the arc and distributes back in side or to the wing.

Atkinson and Esterhuizen both have far better skills than the normal hard hitting bosh 12. I might be remembering incorrectly but I think Atkinson started out as a 10 and then Bedford(?) turned him into a centre. Esterhuizen has played some 15. Handy when you have a player that can do a bit of everything. Pity Esterhuizen isn't EQ and Atkinson is the wrong side of 30 and too slow. Bernhard van Rensburg at LI is a bit like a poor man's Esterhuizen, not as big but carries hard, can kick, can pass, good on D and not bad at the breakdown (contender for signing of the season though with his form at LI). Unfortunately not EQ otherwise he'd probably walk into the team, the Boks really should share some of these 12s around it's only fair. Given can Rensburg has also played some 10 and 15 maybe the lesson is for any academy with a big centre coming through to move them around the backline so they don't just focus on being a power runner.

I think the playmaker at 12 is a bit out of Vogue at the minute but these things do tend to come round in cycles. if by some miracle it becomes key to England winning the world cup it'll be a lot more prevailant the season after.

[Raggs]

Having a second playmaker somewhere in the backline is often quite a big deal though, whether it's 12 of 15, a lot of sides try and get one, and often look a lot better for it. SA and Le Roux being an often very obvious one in the improvement it gives their attack.

[Which Tyler]

Devoto when fit mainly hits it up from what I've seen; no issue with that though.

Who is Bath's 12 when Redpath doesn't play, not paid attention tbh

That's the role he's asked to play, rather than his skills/inclinations though, assaid, Ex use Slade as their principal playmaker, so he's given the job of crash ball.


Max Ojomoh, who also plays 10, but it looks like Francis has been brought in to cover 10 ahead of him.

De Glanville at 15 is also very much in the playmaking role from the back of we're just talking about playmakers, rather than specifically play making 12s.

[Banquo]

Devoto when fit mainly hits it up from what I've seen; no issue with that though.

Who is Bath's 12 when Redpath doesn't play, not paid attention tbh

That's the role he's asked to play, rather than his skills/inclinations though, assaid, Ex use Slade as their principal playmaker, so he's given the job of crash ball.


Max Ojomoh, who also plays 10, but it looks like Francis has been brought in to cover 10 ahead of him.

De Glanville at 15 is also very much in the playmaking role from the back of we're just talking about playmakers, rather than specifically play making 12s.

yep....but the original question was about 12`s as playmakers specifically.

[Banquo]

Fair point.

London Irish with van Rensburg.
Quins half do with Andre, frankly he can do a bit of everything (there's a reason he's the highest paid 12 in the league).
Gloucester with Atkinson or Twelvetrees.
Bath do when Redpath isn't broken.

Sarries, Chiefs and Sale all play with an additional playmaker at 13.

Saints use Furbank from 15 and Hutchinson at 13. Bristol play heavily off 10 or throw it to a superstar and hope something happens. Tigers use Kelly and 15, one of the reasons the attack went to crap towards the end of the season was that there was no like for like Kelly replacement. Newcastle, well who knows their attacking structure is shite.

The obvious one would be the ex Wasp, Gopperth- a true second receiver at 12, albeit with decent running skills for an old little fella.
Andre and Atkinson are obviously reasonably skilled, but primarily get over the gainline. Must confess to not having seen much of Van Rensburg,
Is Steward used as a second playmaker.... and I'm not sure Furbank or Hutchinson are used much in that role, Hutchinson when at 13 plays a very orthodox oc job.
So...not many is the straight answer. Yet we seem a bit obsessed by it.

Knew I'd missed another obvious one, Gopperth.

Steward/Kelly and Hutchinson/Furbank are probably more link players than secondary playmakers. Kelly gets used to run the first receiver Farrell style move so Ford can drift out the back when he wants. Steward is the guy who gets it out wider on the arc and distributes back in side or to the wing.

Atkinson and Esterhuizen both have far better skills than the normal hard hitting bosh 12. I might be remembering incorrectly but I think Atkinson started out as a 10 and then Bedford(?) turned him into a centre. Esterhuizen has played some 15. Handy when you have a player that can do a bit of everything. Pity Esterhuizen isn't EQ and Atkinson is the wrong side of 30 and too slow. Bernhard van Rensburg at LI is a bit like a poor man's Esterhuizen, not as big but carries hard, can kick, can pass, good on D and not bad at the breakdown (contender for signing of the season though with his form at LI). Unfortunately not EQ otherwise he'd probably walk into the team, the Boks really should share some of these 12s around it's only fair. Given can Rensburg has also played some 10 and 15 maybe the lesson is for any academy with a big centre coming through to move them around the backline so they don't just focus on being a power runner.

I think the playmaker at 12 is a bit out of Vogue at the minute but these things do tend to come round in cycles. if by some miracle it becomes key to England winning the world cup it'll be a lot more prevailant the season after.

It was really a question about a 12's role, rather than skillset.(could have put it better!) Majority of em are there to get over the gainline ball in hand; any self respecting centre can pass and kick proficiently.