England training squad

[Banquo]

George is out for the AI's. Quite a big loss imo, looked lively.

[Scrumhead]

Nope. I wouldn’t have said that at all. Without looking at the height/weight stats, I don’t think there’s a lot in it and Northmore is more of a strike running 13 than a ‘power runner’. He’s OK in contact, but that isn’t something I’d have highlighted as a strength.

Ok, but he is 10kg heavier and two inches taller. Just looks bigger and swerves rather than steps, and certainly bounced some Saints defenders, but will defer to your quins knowledge.

Just looking at their stats on the website (obviously Marchant has spent time on the wing), Northmore yards per carry are greater than Marchants, and his tackle stats are much worse. Will watch them closely next time.

(all stats from quins website)

Yeah. I looked it up after I wrote my last post. Purely from a visual POV, I wouldn’t have thought it was that much of a difference. They look a similar size and weight.

‘Swerve rather than steps’ is a decent description. Northmore tends to more about hitting good lines and footwork to avoid contact rather than stepping. He is very good at identifying space and putting himself in good positions to receive scoring passes.

Northmore has scored two tries from a decent way out this season (against Exeter and Saints) which might be skewing the carrying stats a little. Both of those are good examples of what I said about his style of play too. IIRC, no-one lays a hand on him for either.

[Scrumhead]

George is out for the AI's. Quite a big loss imo, looked lively.

Agreed. I’m hoping it gives McGuigan a deserved shot. I feel like once he gets in, he’ll stay there.

[Oakboy]

George is out for the AI's. Quite a big loss imo, looked lively.

Agreed. I’m hoping it gives McGuigan a deserved shot. I feel like once he gets in, he’ll stay there.

That's two hookers out of the training squad (George and Walker) with McGuigan and Singleton replacing them, if I've got it right. Who would be next - Dunn and Blamire?

[Scrumhead]

Not sure TBH? I don’t think Walker’s injury is a serious one so he should be available for the AIs.

Blamire’s been playing in the back row and while Dunn’s had a pretty good start to the season, that’s off the back of a very poor 21/22 season.

[Banquo]

Nope. I wouldn’t have said that at all. Without looking at the height/weight stats, I don’t think there’s a lot in it and Northmore is more of a strike running 13 than a ‘power runner’. He’s OK in contact, but that isn’t something I’d have highlighted as a strength.

Ok, but he is 10kg heavier and two inches taller. Just looks bigger and swerves rather than steps, and certainly bounced some Saints defenders, but will defer to your quins knowledge.

Just looking at their stats on the website (obviously Marchant has spent time on the wing), Northmore yards per carry are greater than Marchants, and his tackle stats are much worse. Will watch them closely next time.

(all stats from quins website)

Yeah. I looked it up after I wrote my last post. Purely from a visual POV, I wouldn’t have thought it was that much of a difference. They look a similar size and weight.

‘Swerve rather than steps’ is a decent description. Northmore tends to more about hitting good lines and footwork to avoid contact rather than stepping. He is very good at identifying space and putting himself in good positions to receive scoring passes.

Northmore has scored two tries from a decent way out this season (against Exeter and Saints) which might be skewing the carrying stats a little. Both of those are good examples of what I said about his style of play too. IIRC, no-one lays a hand on him for either.

Its interesting what differences in perception one can have of the same player. Maybe because I played there, I see distinct differences between Northmore and Marchant- both are essentially running centres (which is my preference, cos the basics of passing and kicking should be a given for any centre), but do it in differing ways; Northmore's size means he is scanning lines earlier, whereas I'd see Marchant as more finding space in a telephone box (though he is good at picking deeper lines too). That's why I can see Northmore becoming a good 12 tbh, not that its likely with both Esterhuizen and his tackle stats. All that said, I'm basing it on very little time of seeing him!

[Puja]

Ok, but he is 10kg heavier and two inches taller. Just looks bigger and swerves rather than steps, and certainly bounced some Saints defenders, but will defer to your quins knowledge.

Just looking at their stats on the website (obviously Marchant has spent time on the wing), Northmore yards per carry are greater than Marchants, and his tackle stats are much worse. Will watch them closely next time.

(all stats from quins website)

Yeah. I looked it up after I wrote my last post. Purely from a visual POV, I wouldn’t have thought it was that much of a difference. They look a similar size and weight.

‘Swerve rather than steps’ is a decent description. Northmore tends to more about hitting good lines and footwork to avoid contact rather than stepping. He is very good at identifying space and putting himself in good positions to receive scoring passes.

Northmore has scored two tries from a decent way out this season (against Exeter and Saints) which might be skewing the carrying stats a little. Both of those are good examples of what I said about his style of play too. IIRC, no-one lays a hand on him for either.

Its interesting what differences in perception one can have of the same player. Maybe because I played there, I see distinct differences between Northmore and Marchant- both are essentially running centres (which is my preference, cos the basics of passing and kicking should be a given for any centre), but do it in differing ways; Northmore's size means he is scanning lines earlier, whereas I'd see Marchant as more finding space in a telephone box (though he is good at picking deeper lines too). That's why I can see Northmore becoming a good 12 tbh, not that its likely with both Esterhuizen and his tackle stats. All that said, I'm basing it on very little time of seeing him!

It is worth noting that Northmore is also currently not playing 12 despite Esterhuizen not being there. You would've thought, if Northmore at 12 could be a viable thing, that Quins would be playing both him and Marchant in the centres, with David on the wing, but instead they think Anyanwu is a better option than fitting in their two best centres. Suggests that they don't agree with you on Northmore's 12 capacity.

Puja

[Banquo]

Yeah. I looked it up after I wrote my last post. Purely from a visual POV, I wouldn’t have thought it was that much of a difference. They look a similar size and weight.

‘Swerve rather than steps’ is a decent description. Northmore tends to more about hitting good lines and footwork to avoid contact rather than stepping. He is very good at identifying space and putting himself in good positions to receive scoring passes.

Northmore has scored two tries from a decent way out this season (against Exeter and Saints) which might be skewing the carrying stats a little. Both of those are good examples of what I said about his style of play too. IIRC, no-one lays a hand on him for either.

Its interesting what differences in perception one can have of the same player. Maybe because I played there, I see distinct differences between Northmore and Marchant- both are essentially running centres (which is my preference, cos the basics of passing and kicking should be a given for any centre), but do it in differing ways; Northmore's size means he is scanning lines earlier, whereas I'd see Marchant as more finding space in a telephone box (though he is good at picking deeper lines too). That's why I can see Northmore becoming a good 12 tbh, not that its likely with both Esterhuizen and his tackle stats. All that said, I'm basing it on very little time of seeing him!

It is worth noting that Northmore is also currently not playing 12 despite Esterhuizen not being there. You would've thought, if Northmore at 12 could be a viable thing, that Quins would be playing both him and Marchant in the centres, with David on the wing, but instead they think Anyanwu is a better option than fitting in their two best centres. Suggests that they don't agree with you on Northmore's 12 capacity.

Puja

I can live with that . As i said above, his tackle stats arent all that and I know he didn’t impress when played there, and I merely said I could see him BECOMING a 12 based on a couple of viewings. The key point was I don’t quite see he and Marchant as identical players. Apologies for venturing an opinion, I know it’s dangerous heresy

[Scrumhead]

I didn’t say they’re ‘identical’ though. I said they offer ‘similar strengths’ - in this case both are ‘running centres’ (to use your description) but neither is what you’d call a ‘power runner’.

If you were asking which of them is better suited to playing 12, I’d agree it’s Northmore, although he’s not looked great when he’s played there.

The original context was simply that if Eddie wants a ‘running centre’ why would he pick Northmore when Marchant is similar but better (and has proven he can cut it at test level)? I don’t agree with it but I understand the decision to go for Porter who is at least closer to being a ‘power runner’.

[Banquo]

I didn’t say they’re ‘identical’ though. I said they offer ‘similar strengths’ - in this case both are ‘running centres’ (to use your description) but neither is what you’d call a ‘power runner’.

If you were asking which of them is better suited to playing 12, I’d agree it’s Northmore, although he’s not looked great when he’s played there.

The original context was simply that if Eddie wants a ‘running centre’ why would he pick Northmore when Marchant is similar but better (and has proven he can cut it at test level)? I don’t agree with it but I understand the decision to go for Porter who is at least closer to being a ‘power runner’.

I guess my point is that it wouldnt pain me to pair Northmore and Marchant, save I know Northmore hasnt yet impressed at 12, and from limited views see a difference in their running threats.

[Puja]

Apologies for venturing an opinion, I know it’s dangerous heresy

Well done for apologising, but this is still your official first written warning. We don't need that sort of behaviour around here

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Well someone had to break up a full day of back and forth between Banquo and I

[Banquo]

Well someone had to break up a full day of back and forth between Banquo and I

Fair

[Danno]

Yeah. I looked it up after I wrote my last post. Purely from a visual POV, I wouldn’t have thought it was that much of a difference. They look a similar size and weight.

‘Swerve rather than steps’ is a decent description. Northmore tends to more about hitting good lines and footwork to avoid contact rather than stepping. He is very good at identifying space and putting himself in good positions to receive scoring passes.

Northmore has scored two tries from a decent way out this season (against Exeter and Saints) which might be skewing the carrying stats a little. Both of those are good examples of what I said about his style of play too. IIRC, no-one lays a hand on him for either.

Its interesting what differences in perception one can have of the same player. Maybe because I played there, I see distinct differences between Northmore and Marchant- both are essentially running centres (which is my preference, cos the basics of passing and kicking should be a given for any centre), but do it in differing ways; Northmore's size means he is scanning lines earlier, whereas I'd see Marchant as more finding space in a telephone box (though he is good at picking deeper lines too). That's why I can see Northmore becoming a good 12 tbh, not that its likely with both Esterhuizen and his tackle stats. All that said, I'm basing it on very little time of seeing him!

It is worth noting that Northmore is also currently not playing 12 despite Esterhuizen not being there. You would've thought, if Northmore at 12 could be a viable thing, that Quins would be playing both him and Marchant in the centres, with David on the wing, but instead they think Anyanwu is a better option than fitting in their two best centres. Suggests that they don't agree with you on Northmore's 12 capacity.

Puja

And after a bit of a horrorshow a couple of weeks ago too. FWIW I think it's the right move, he looked a lot better this week if we ignore the total (team wide) defensive shutdown after 50mins.

[Scrumhead]

He hasn’t played 12 this season though?

[Oakboy]

Maybe, Quins selection policy, together with the thread's debate, just proves that Esterhuizen is 1. irreplaceable and 2. close to the ideal modern IC. That SA (apparently) have a better one is cause for concern in terms of assessing English development. 'Nothing much since Greenwood' is pretty condemnatory.

[Scrumhead]

Definitely Eddie Jones’ fault

In all seriousness, it is frankly bizarre that we’ve been unable to produce a quality 12 in almost 20 years. They’ve typically either been bang average, imported or in most cases both (Hape, Flutey, Barritt etc).

Coaches can’t be unaware of this can they? If I had a promising young centre in my academy with the right attributes to play 12, I would be making damn sure they stuck with it and didn’t shift around. I’m sure I’m not alone in wondering why Barbeary was pushed towards playing hooker (which he apparently didn’t enjoy), when he’d been ripping it up as a centre. I know that was at school level, but the fact that Lee Blackett joked about it a season or two ago suggests it wasn’t complete pie in the sky.

It’s frustrating to see Hartley at Wasps playing 15 for example. On the one hand, I can see merit to it if it’s improving his skill set and feel for the game. On the other, it feels like a wasted opportunity for he kid to hone his craft as a specialist 12.

[Raggs]

I think Barbeary at 12, even for school, was only ever to continue to develop his skillset rather than as a move to the backs.

I'm hoping Hartley is at 15 due to wasps lack of fit 15s and putting the next best option there.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm just waiting for someone to mention Steward at 12 again. With Arundell's emergence I can imagine crazier things than Eddie opting to do a Jamie Roberts with him, out of nowhere.

[Epaminondas Pules]

He moved to hooker when he entered the Wasps academy program, and was playing hooker for England from U16 level, but still some games at centre for Bloxham, where they mixed and matched him to suit games. Part of his exceptional performances were down to his sheer size and power, which was a level above everyone else, even internationally. He never really had the pace for centre, which became more obvious as he got older (U15s onwards).

[FKAS]

I'm just waiting for someone to mention Steward at 12 again. With Arundell's emergence I can imagine crazier things than Eddie opting to do a Jamie Roberts with him, out of nowhere.

Only a matter of time. Some former international mooted it after he broke through initially but that quickly went away when it became obvious he just cleans up a lot of the stuff in the backfield that used to cause England problems.

He played 13 for Loughborough University and both 10 and 13 at school before converting to 15 in the Tigers academy. Moving one of the few backline players that is completely settled would be a pretty odd call so expect Eddie to trial it this Autumn if/when Manu picks up an injury.

[Peej]

Maybe, Quins selection policy, together with the thread's debate, just proves that Esterhuizen is 1. irreplaceable and 2. close to the ideal modern IC. That SA (apparently) have a better one is cause for concern in terms of assessing English development. 'Nothing much since Greenwood' is pretty condemnatory.

People in SA are tearing their hair out at Nienaber's selections, so I wouldn't read too much into that.

[Peej]

I think Barbeary at 12, even for school, was only ever to continue to develop his skillset rather than as a move to the backs.

I'm hoping Hartley is at 15 due to wasps lack of fit 15s and putting the next best option there.

He started running at 15 in preseason, so before some of the injuries. I think it's recognition that Wasps are weak there, but also combined with the fact Wasps have also signed a budget-version of Esterhuizen to play 12.

I also have to take slight umbrage at Scrumhead's characterisation of Flutey. In his spell at LI and then first spell at Wasps he was easily the outstanding 12 in the league. Didn't make him any less Maori and more English, but the quality was clear. When he came back from Brive, however....

[Banquo]

I'm just waiting for someone to mention Steward at 12 again. With Arundell's emergence I can imagine crazier things than Eddie opting to do a Jamie Roberts with him, out of nowhere.

If he was as good as Roberts was for most of his career at 12, I wouldn't complain. I'd settle for Tomkins too.

[Banquo]

Maybe, Quins selection policy, together with the thread's debate, just proves that Esterhuizen is 1. irreplaceable and 2. close to the ideal modern IC. That SA (apparently) have a better one is cause for concern in terms of assessing English development. 'Nothing much since Greenwood' is pretty condemnatory.

People in SA are tearing their hair out at Nienaber's selections, so I wouldn't read too much into that.

I think his sole aim is the World Cup and he's trying out loads of combos. Lot of talented SA backs. De Allende and Am are a very good combo, in their own way.