David Armstrong in Wasps bid

[UKHamlet]

A former boss of crisis-hit Wasps is spearheading a takeover bid for the Premiership Rugby club that could save it from the threat of relegation or extinction.

Sky News has learnt that David Armstrong, who stepped down as Wasps' chief executive in 2017, is working with Terminum Capital, an investment firm, on a bid to buy the club and its Coventry Arena stadium.

Sources close to the auction of Wasps, which is taking place just days before its holding company faces being plunged into administration, said the bid led by Mr Armstrong and Terminum Capital was worth more than £50m, with a further £12m earmarked for working capital.

https://news.sky.com/story/former-wasps ... b-12716501

[Puja]

That's excellent news! Hopefully it'll go through smoothly and I can be able to watch Wasps again without thinking about which players I'd like Leicester to loot from their corpse.

Puja

[Raggs]

Apparently the deal is only going to happen if Wasps go into administration. I'd imagine should that happen, Cov Council will take the lease of the stadium back so they can sell it again. Not sure if the takeover group would want that.

[FKAS]

Apparently the deal is only going to happen if Wasps go into administration. I'd imagine should that happen, Cov Council will take the lease of the stadium back so they can sell it again. Not sure if the takeover group would want that.

Buy the club and the club's playing assets for a song. Abandon the debt laden stadium. Buy Worcester's property assets on the cheap from the liquidator and that could be the most cost effective way of moving forward.

[Scrumhead]

I get the logic, but Wasps playing at Sixways would be a bizarre outcome and probably make them even less popular in Worcester than they have been in Coventry.

[Raggs]

Apparently the deal is only going to happen if Wasps go into administration. I'd imagine should that happen, Cov Council will take the lease of the stadium back so they can sell it again. Not sure if the takeover group would want that.

Buy the club and the club's playing assets for a song. Abandon the debt laden stadium. Buy Worcester's property assets on the cheap from the liquidator and that could be the most cost effective way of moving forward.

That's a thought, but I don't know how well that would go down. Interesting approach though.

[FKAS]

It would have to sensitively done but a rebrand to Worcester Wasps might just go down ok if done right. Part of the problem in Coventry seems to be based around the loggerheads with the football team (an inherited issue), wouldn't necessarily be the same issue at Worcester where there's currently no team and no prospect of a Premiership outfit in the city for nearly 24 months.

[Scrumhead]

True. That’s a good point.

[Puja]

Apparently the deal is only going to happen if Wasps go into administration. I'd imagine should that happen, Cov Council will take the lease of the stadium back so they can sell it again. Not sure if the takeover group would want that.

Buy the club and the club's playing assets for a song. Abandon the debt laden stadium. Buy Worcester's property assets on the cheap from the liquidator and that could be the most cost effective way of moving forward.

Is the debt actually secured separately on the stadium? I don't know it's a case that Wasps can hand the keys back and be free - I was under the impression that, if they went into administration and Cov Council took the lease back, they were then losing £50m of asset (and all the money making events business, hotel, etc) for nothing.

Also, administration means relegation and that now can't be mitigated because Worcester were officially flushed for going into administration.

I can see why a Worcester buyer would only want the club if they went into administration, because of all the financial fuckery that needed unwinding, I'm less sure why a Wasps buyer would need it. Anyone able to enlighten me?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Worcester Wasps, Franchise Wasps - name it what you will, it all leaves a sour taste in the mouth. Giving up the stadium when the whole point of moving across the country was for the stadium seems like madness. You’re throwing the baby out with the pandemic bath water. Assuming Richardson’s (I’m sure that’s the name of Wasps owner) original business model is still sound, and only floundered because of the pandemic, then a reset sounds good. Wasps need to realise that relocating whenever you don’t get your own way is a recipe for disaster. Suck up your medicine and rebuild from the Champ, if they’ll have you.
If it were up to me, I’d let both clubs die as top flight entities - they’ve had years to put together a sustainable model and both failed.

[Oakboy]

If the Coventry move fails what is really left other than the name? Where is the fan base? Where are the roots? To my simple mind, abandoning the traditional London core was a one-time experiment. If the club ceased to exist how big a loss would that seem looking back in, say, five years time?

I must confess that I've not watched them since they left High Wycombe. That location seemed right geographically. Friends in Buckinghamshire, regular and traditional fans, have never once visited Coventry to watch a game. They say 'their Wasps' are no more. People like them could reasonably be replaced by new local fans once, arguably. Moving again, other than back to London, just seems artificial and contrived.

[Puja]

If the Coventry move fails what is really left other than the name? Where is the fan base? Where are the roots? To my simple mind, abandoning the traditional London core was a one-time experiment. If the club ceased to exist how big a loss would that seem looking back in, say, five years time?

I must confess that I've not watched them since they left High Wycombe. That location seemed right geographically. Friends in Buckinghamshire, regular and traditional fans, have never once visited Coventry to watch a game. They say 'their Wasps' are no more. People like them could reasonably be replaced by new local fans once, arguably. Moving again, other than back to London, just seems artificial and contrived.

You've absolutely nailed it with that sentence. I wasn't happy with them leaving High Wycombe and their support base (in fact couple of days ago, my Facebook memories kicked up the screed I wrote about it at the time), but I grudgingdly accepted it as they said it was the price for the club's continued survival. It's not a trick that can or should be repeated.

Puja

[FKAS]

Allegedly five bidders in contention (including Mike Ashley). Not all willing to come in and pay off the debt though. Some are apparently looking to form a new company and purchase the assets at a knock down figure which will mean that the original company goes into liquidation and creditors are left pretty high and dry. Long term that would work for Wasps but short term that will almost certainly mean relegation and possible loss of P shares (quite frankly the other Prem clubs could do with a bigger share so are likely to invoke the insolvency clause).

[Puja]

Allegedly five bidders in contention (including Mike Ashley). Not all willing to come in and pay off the debt though. Some are apparently looking to form a new company and purchase the assets at a knock down figure which will mean that the original company goes into liquidation and creditors are left pretty high and dry. Long term that would work for Wasps but short term that will almost certainly mean relegation and possible loss of P shares (quite frankly the other Prem clubs could do with a bigger share so are likely to invoke the insolvency clause).

I've heard a lot of rumours that a few of the other Prem clubs have come around to Which and my thinking about a 10-team league, although they're a bit more interested in reducing it in a Game of Thrones fashion than we are. The implication is that, if it comes to a vote, there's a substantial bloc interested in pushing Wasps over the side.

Mind, I'd be nervous to be in that 11 team league though! Be like an Agatha Christie dinner party - someone's gonna die and everyone's carrying a motive and a knife.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Yeah, it's a silver lining to the mess.
The major problem there (for the remaining 11) is that they're not even considering the idea of boosting the championship at the same time, which IMO is necessary to go along with the reduced Prem.

[Mellsblue]

I think most on here believe a smaller, high quality league is the way forwards.
CVS should be on board, too. From what I’ve read, they’ve been in favour of fewer and bigger matches from the moment they decided to invest, with it being pretty central to plan of how to sweat their asset.

[Puja]

Yeah, it's a silver lining to the mess.
The major problem there (for the remaining 11) is that they're not even considering the idea of boosting the championship at the same time, which IMO is necessary to go along with the reduced Prem.

You would've thought it was an ideal opportunity. Ask the Champ clubs which 5 or 7 of them want to be professional and on the right side of ring-fencing and then reboot the second tier with them, Wasps, and Worcester, with a 2-down, 1-up for next season to equalise the leagues. Instead, they're just willing to wave goodbye completely to those fanbases and player development networks.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I wonder of anyone at the RFU is contemplating picking up the pieces of either club. They’d then have a stadium for womans team sited pretty centrally, training facilities for the national teams that they actually own and a ‘tenant’ for the ground who they ‘own’ but would be run at arms length.

[Mellsblue]

Yeah, it's a silver lining to the mess.
The major problem there (for the remaining 11) is that they're not even considering the idea of boosting the championship at the same time, which IMO is necessary to go along with the reduced Prem.

You would've thought it was an ideal opportunity. Ask the Champ clubs which 5 or 7 of them want to be professional and on the right side of ring-fencing and then reboot the second tier with them, Wasps, and Worcester, with a 2-down, 1-up for next season to equalise the leagues. Instead, they're just willing to wave goodbye completely to those fanbases and player development networks.

Puja

We’ve been over this many times but who are these teams that have the money*, fan base, catchment area to increase the fan base, infrastructure and, most importantly, the will, to become professional?
*including £20 - 30m for p shares.
Doncaster and Coventry are the only two, for me, that meet the above criteria and that’s only if Cov are not competing with Wasps.

I’m all for improving the Champ but it needs to done via evolution not revolution.

[FKAS]

I wonder of anyone at the RFU is contemplating picking up the pieces of either club. They’d then have a stadium for womans team sited pretty centrally, training facilities for the national teams that they actually own and a ‘tenant’ for the ground who they ‘own’ but would be run at arms length.

Can't see the RFU wanting to own another stadium let alone a team. It will be concerned about Wasps and Worcester women potentially going under along with the men's teams. Centrally speaking there's the newly former Tigers women's team and Loughborough Lightning. It's a strong area for rugby.

I suspect the RFU would be keener to see something big go ahead in Yorkshire as it's a big largely untapped market since Leeds went under.

[Mellsblue]

I wonder of anyone at the RFU is contemplating picking up the pieces of either club. They’d then have a stadium for womans team sited pretty centrally, training facilities for the national teams that they actually own and a ‘tenant’ for the ground who they ‘own’ but would be run at arms length.

Can't see the RFU wanting to own another stadium let alone a team. It will be concerned about Wasps and Worcester women potentially going under along with the men's teams. Centrally speaking there's the newly former Tigers women's team and Loughborough Lightning. It's a strong area for rugby.

I suspect the RFU would be keener to see something big go ahead in Yorkshire as it's a big largely untapped market since Leeds went under.

Owning a stadium and training facilities with a guaranteed tenant looks pretty good on paper. It’s a completely different proposition to the ground they currently own, especially if they lease the ground on FRI, and the trading facilities they don’t. It would also mean the match day revenue from the Roses goes on to their pockets. Not sure what the relevance of mentioning Loughborough Lightening is as Worcester Woman and Wasps Woman are already in existence. The big question on that is why Tigers are so late to the party. On the plus side, giving the Roses a permanent base with an established Premier 15s side could drive the growth of both.

I’m unaware of any clubs in Yorkshire with ready made stadium and training facilities that is currently on the market.

[Puja]

Yeah, it's a silver lining to the mess.
The major problem there (for the remaining 11) is that they're not even considering the idea of boosting the championship at the same time, which IMO is necessary to go along with the reduced Prem.

You would've thought it was an ideal opportunity. Ask the Champ clubs which 5 or 7 of them want to be professional and on the right side of ring-fencing and then reboot the second tier with them, Wasps, and Worcester, with a 2-down, 1-up for next season to equalise the leagues. Instead, they're just willing to wave goodbye completely to those fanbases and player development networks.

Puja

We’ve been over this many times but who are these teams that have the money*, fan base, catchment area to increase the fan base, infrastructure and, most importantly, the will, to become professional?
*including £20 - 30m for p shares.
Doncaster and Coventry are the only two, for me, that meet the above criteria and that’s only if Cov are not competing with Wasps.

I’m all for improving the Champ but it needs to done via evolution not revolution.

I mean, we do do this every time, but I'll go back to my standard response - I'm not talking fully professional as in "spend up to the Prem salary cap immediately" level, I'm talking about an evolution of teams who have ambitions to get there, complete with increased central funding. If you ringfence below, then there's no worry about relegation and failure. You'd've thought Doncaster, Jersey, Ealing, and Pirates would all be up for that kind of arrangement.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

You would've thought it was an ideal opportunity. Ask the Champ clubs which 5 or 7 of them want to be professional and on the right side of ring-fencing and then reboot the second tier with them, Wasps, and Worcester, with a 2-down, 1-up for next season to equalise the leagues. Instead, they're just willing to wave goodbye completely to those fanbases and player development networks.

Puja

We’ve been over this many times but who are these teams that have the money*, fan base, catchment area to increase the fan base, infrastructure and, most importantly, the will, to become professional?
*including £20 - 30m for p shares.
Doncaster and Coventry are the only two, for me, that meet the above criteria and that’s only if Cov are not competing with Wasps.

I’m all for improving the Champ but it needs to done via evolution not revolution.

I mean, we do do this every time, but I'll go back to my standard response - I'm not talking fully professional as in "spend up to the Prem salary cap immediately" level, I'm talking about an evolution of teams who have ambitions to get there, complete with increased central funding. If you ringfence below, then there's no worry about relegation and failure. You'd've thought Doncaster, Jersey, Ealing, and Pirates would all be up for that kind of arrangement.

Puja

They might be but none of them look set up for 20k crowds, in a good quality stadium with the income from ancillary facilities that allow the likes of Exe to not lose money hand over fist.

[Puja]

We’ve been over this many times but who are these teams that have the money*, fan base, catchment area to increase the fan base, infrastructure and, most importantly, the will, to become professional?
*including £20 - 30m for p shares.
Doncaster and Coventry are the only two, for me, that meet the above criteria and that’s only if Cov are not competing with Wasps.

I’m all for improving the Champ but it needs to done via evolution not revolution.

I mean, we do do this every time, but I'll go back to my standard response - I'm not talking fully professional as in "spend up to the Prem salary cap immediately" level, I'm talking about an evolution of teams who have ambitions to get there, complete with increased central funding. If you ringfence below, then there's no worry about relegation and failure. You'd've thought Doncaster, Jersey, Ealing, and Pirates would all be up for that kind of arrangement.

Puja

They might be but none of them look set up for 20k crowds, in a good quality stadium with the income from ancillary facilities that allow the likes of Exe to not lose money hand over fist.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes here - I'm not talking about a revolution where these 5-7 clubs are supposed to be competing with Exeter's spending. I'm effectively talking about nothing much changing immediately, except they're in a smaller league, with better central funding, three bigger name opponents to drive crowds, and some form of intra-league cup competition to raise money, with the ambition for growth and development in the future.

Puja

[Peej]

Wasps need to go into administration to be bought and saved, but that means relegation. And the potential buyers will only buy a team if it's guaranteed to stay in the Premiership, which I just don't see PRL, the RFU or the other clubs agreeing to.

What so very nearly happened a decade ago is about to happen. The simple truth of it is that Wasps are fucked. Nobody wants to buy a second tier rugby team laden with debt and shorn of its best players.