Premiership Rugby planning a "relaunch" for 2024-25

[Puja]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63946473

All sounds broadly sensible so far and hopefully this bloke they've brought in from cricket is good. I will admit that I hated the idea of The Hundred initially, but the execution, marketing, and engagement have been top-drawer and it's been a massive success - just hope this guy is one of the ones that made that happen, rather than someone who just happened to be on the board and is cashing in on being there.

Real shame they're not relaunching for 23/24. Would seem to be the obvious time - using the RWC as the springboard for new viewers and would save having a dead duck season where nothing has changed - but I do understand the advantages to giving sides a whole season to fight relegation (assuming we're going down to 10) and the freedom and flexibility afforded by the end of the PGA.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

This one is the biggie, for me:
‘A new sporting commission, which would be independently chaired and make decisions on behalf of the league.’
The amount of times you’d read about decisions being kicked down the road or just ignored as being too hard to reach consensus was pretty stark.

[fivepointer]

The chief executive of Premiership Rugby Limited (PRL) has outlined his strategy to relaunch professional rugby union in England ahead of the 2024-25 season.

Simon Massie-Taylor admitted that the system has been “stress-tested and broken” by the fate of Wasps and Worcester Warriors, and he believes there is “momentum and desire” to fix things. In the short to medium-term, he will focus on four tenets in order to do so:

Finalising the new competition structure while devoting special attention to the second tier
Establishing a financial monitoring panel with an independent chair
Introducing a sporting commission for quicker decisions with a salary cap formula
Working towards commercial growth with a greater sense of collaboration.
Massie-Taylor embarked on his current role in January and will never forget his first year, which has featured a trip to Parliament to face an awkward grilling from MPs over events that led to the demise of both Wasps and Worcester.

Out of the wreckage, though, he intends to deliver “material progress”. Not least because the professional game agreement (PGA) is to be renewed for 2024-25, the time to strike is now.

League structure and the second tier
Though some of his predecessors have seemed allergic to the second tier, Massie-Taylor spent his first summer in the job gathering opinions to develop an understanding of how important it was to the sport’s ecosystem.

In the next couple of months, PRL want to decide on the league structure for 2024-25, perhaps with the top tier down to 10 teams, and “work backwards” to ascertain what next season should look like. Massie-Taylor feels that clubs are “pretty aligned” and there are “not a huge number of battles to fight”.

He states, though, that the “gap is too big” between the Championship and the Premiership and “the funding isn’t there” for the former. But strengthening the environment has become all the more important “given that we’re likely to have two former Premiership teams in the Championship next season [Wasps and Worcester] and we want those clubs to return”.

Relegation would appear to be due a return, then, because there is a “strong willingness” to align the Premiership and the Championship. To borrow another successful strain of the French system, broadcasting negotiations could be key.

“When we talk with broadcasters about the next cycle, we are going to be very conscious of aligning the whole game,” Massie-Taylor continues. “Clearly, there is no narrative around the Championship. It is being live-streamed a few times but no one is telling the story fully. If you want a regional footprint in professional rugby, you want to speak not of 10 or 12 teams but of 20 or 24.

“The [timing of the] broadcast agreement falls in line with the new league format in 24-25. We would start those conversations soon. We need to think of this as a relaunch, generally, of professional rugby come the 24-25 season. What exactly that looks like, how it’s marketed and what the story is, that’s the bit we are working on generally at the moment.”

Financial monitoring
An overarching aim for Massie-Taylor is to “attract the next generation of people investing in clubs” and to “generate investor confidence” in the Premiership. That said, he was encouraged by the people that “came out of the woodwork” to register interest in Wasps and Worcester.

Feedback from those parties, Massie-Taylor explains, highlighted “governance and financial control” across the competition as crucial priorities. “If you can tick those boxes, then people are actually going to invest,” he says.

As a response, the Premiership want to assemble a financial monitoring panel by this summer and are recruiting an independent chair. This body will report to the PRL board and be accountable to the Rugby Football Union (RFU). Its chair will possess a strong background in financial regulation but “will not copy and paste something that does not work”. Massie-Taylor wants them to “listen, understand and respond to the situation we are in at the moment”.

Alongside transparency, proactivity and discipline will be important watch-words as the Premiership aims to emulate the French model, whereby clubs outline budgets and provide guarantees ahead of a new season, to incentivise sustainability.

Then again, Massie-Taylor is also mindful that this will take time because “liquidity issues” are rife. “If we were to impose the French system on us now it would expose quite a lot,” he says. “This is almost day one of boot camp and we’re trying to get a fully-fit set of soldiers.”

Other governance reforms will sit with the RFU, including an owners’ and directors’ test. Massie-Taylor suggests that this will have to be “continual”, rather than a “moment in time” assessment, with company structures also up for scrutiny: “For example, we would need to have assurances that the stadium can’t be hived off.” He would also want insolvency regulations to be given “more teeth”.

Sporting commission
The cluttered and curious bureaucracy of the Premiership will be tackled, or mitigated, by a sporting commission for non-commercial decisions related to scheduling or league structure. An independent chair will be appointed and the voices of players or recently-retired ex-players will be incorporated.

“You’d avoid the natural conflict that exists in our system at the moment and avoid the complicated voting structures where you need majorities or super-majorities,” Massie-Taylor says.

At the moment, there is a belief that the salary cap is “quite arbitrary” and could instead be linked to a formula where clubs can only spend a certain percentage of their revenue. The sporting commission would be able to change aspects of that legislation, such as the existence of ‘exempt players’, popularly known as marquee players, to react to market forces.

Bearing in mind the number of players moving to France, Massie-Taylor concedes that there is “a tension in the system” between the desire to “be competitive in Europe” and engender the “best league to come and play in” while being “sensible” over short-term financial challenges under a reduced salary cap.

The cap ceiling is due to rise again in 2024-25, but Steve Borthwick, the Leicester Tigers head coach primed to succeed Eddie Jones with England, sounded very deliberate last month when he indicated that clubs should be better compensated for developing internationals.

Growth through collaboration
Few would argue with Massie-Taylor’s assertion that “the product is in a good state” as far as the on-field entertainment served up by Premiership fixtures. Off-field cooperation can improve the infrastructure around that.

Massie-Taylor reveals that he intends the next PGA to contain a joint marketing agreement between PRL and the RFU. “That’s for England, the clubs and the community game to tell the story together,” he says. “At the moment, it’s a very siloed narrative.”

Harlequins are earmarked as a club that is into a rhythm when it comes to attracting impressive attendances, with Gloucester close behind. Massie-Taylor also heralds Premiership coverage on ITV, the same station that shows the Six Nations and the Rugby World Cup, as a “big step”.

On another level, PRL now shares an office in Victoria, London, with staff from Six Nations and United Rugby Championship. It all adds up to a sense that, finally, major stakeholders are beginning to pull in the same direction.

“It’s not just because of the crisis we’ve faced,” Massie-Taylor adds. “It’s everything from the PGA being [up for renewal] now, the commercial cycles being now but also the right people being in place.

“There is a general feeling of collaboration, both within the club environment with some excellent chief executives, with the relationship between the RFU, PRL and RPA [the Rugby Players’ Association] in a good spot to get things happening. There is momentum and desire and what comes with that is a responsibility to get things right.”


There's a quite a bit to like here. Massie-Taylor seems to be a bright guy and looks to be grasping the issues.

[Banquo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63946473

All sounds broadly sensible so far and hopefully this bloke they've brought in from cricket is good. I will admit that I hated the idea of The Hundred initially, but the execution, marketing, and engagement have been top-drawer and it's been a massive success - just hope this guy is one of the ones that made that happen, rather than someone who just happened to be on the board and is cashing in on being there.

Real shame they're not relaunching for 23/24. Would seem to be the obvious time - using the RWC as the springboard for new viewers and would save having a dead duck season where nothing has changed - but I do understand the advantages to giving sides a whole season to fight relegation (assuming we're going down to 10) and the freedom and flexibility afforded by the end of the PGA.

Puja

Plus there's an awful lot of detail to be worked through- and I hope they genuinely do want to work with the RFU and sort out the international arrangements and club governance- the roles and responsibilities /accountabilities really need sorting out if we don't want a repeat of Wuss'n'Wasps.

[Puja]

"If you want a regional footprint in professional rugby, you want to speak not of 10 or 12 teams but of 20 or 24."

I've said that before - if we're having 10 or 12 clubs, it's impossible to get any kind of geographical coverage (especially when established clubs mean there's three in London, two in the East Midlands, and Bristol/Bath just 12 miles away from each other). If we can get 20 entities (even if some of them are semi-pro), we can cover places like Cornwall, Yorkshire with academies and a local club for fans.

It's a shame there's no practical way to have a club in East Anglia. It's bananas that my old school in Colchester falls into Northampton's catchment area, requiring 15 year olds to be transported a 240 mile round trip to play a "home" academy game.

Puja

[francoisfou]

No mention about taking international matches away from HQ?
A couple of matches a season (Autumn Tests or 6N) in either Newcastle, Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham would surely attract support.
I've not been to Twickenham for ages but from what I've read recently, it's far from the best ambiance for a major test rugby ground, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine that the supporters from the north would be somewhat more "down to earth" than the majority of those who go to Twickenham.

[Timbo]

Does feel like they’re starting to pull back from the brink. Just words at the moment, though.

[Puja]

No mention about taking international matches away from HQ?
A couple of matches a season (Autumn Tests or 6N) in either Newcastle, Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham would surely attract support.
I've not been to Twickenham for ages but from what I've read recently, it's far from the best ambiance for a major test rugby ground, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine that the supporters from the north would be somewhat more "down to earth" than the majority of those who go to Twickenham.

£££. Twickenham is owned outright by the RFU, holds 80,000, and a full stadium is pure profit. Take a match to Newcastle and, even if we assume it's a sell-out (not a guarantee), you get a maximum of 52k people, minus the costs of hiring St James's Park, converting it for rugby and back again, and duplicating a load of staff costs which they have as full-time jobs in London.

I like the idea of touring the UK, but Twickenham home internationals are the things that fund everything else in the English game. It's the only part of our pro game that's working rn!

Puja

[FKAS]

"If you want a regional footprint in professional rugby, you want to speak not of 10 or 12 teams but of 20 or 24."

I've said that before - if we're having 10 or 12 clubs, it's impossible to get any kind of geographical coverage (especially when established clubs mean there's three in London, two in the East Midlands, and Bristol/Bath just 12 miles away from each other). If we can get 20 entities (even if some of them are semi-pro), we can cover places like Cornwall, Yorkshire with academies and a local club for fans.

It's a shame there's no practical way to have a club in East Anglia. It's bananas that my old school in Colchester falls into Northampton's catchment area, requiring 15 year olds to be transported a 240 mile round trip to play a "home" academy game.

Puja

Let's not turn the tap off on Tigers flow of Norfolk talent.

Rugby Union is in desperate need for more representation in Yorkshire. Donny is cutting a lonely figure after the relegations of Leeds and Rotherham. Would be nice to have a club up in Cumbria as well. There's lots of union clubs in the north but the lack of professional teams means League is always more likely to get first dibs on talent.

[Puja]

"If you want a regional footprint in professional rugby, you want to speak not of 10 or 12 teams but of 20 or 24."

I've said that before - if we're having 10 or 12 clubs, it's impossible to get any kind of geographical coverage (especially when established clubs mean there's three in London, two in the East Midlands, and Bristol/Bath just 12 miles away from each other). If we can get 20 entities (even if some of them are semi-pro), we can cover places like Cornwall, Yorkshire with academies and a local club for fans.

It's a shame there's no practical way to have a club in East Anglia. It's bananas that my old school in Colchester falls into Northampton's catchment area, requiring 15 year olds to be transported a 240 mile round trip to play a "home" academy game.

Puja

Let's not turn the tap off on Tigers flow of Norfolk talent.

Rugby Union is in desperate need for more representation in Yorkshire. Donny is cutting a lonely figure after the relegations of Leeds and Rotherham. Would be nice to have a club up in Cumbria as well. There's lots of union clubs in the north but the lack of professional teams means League is always more likely to get first dibs on talent.

I guess we're still looking for a place to shove Wasps. Could have Chelmsford Wasps or Carlisle Wasps?

Puja

[francoisfou]

No mention about taking international matches away from HQ?
A couple of matches a season (Autumn Tests or 6N) in either Newcastle, Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham would surely attract support.
I've not been to Twickenham for ages but from what I've read recently, it's far from the best ambiance for a major test rugby ground, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine that the supporters from the north would be somewhat more "down to earth" than the majority of those who go to Twickenham.

£££. Twickenham is owned outright by the RFU, holds 80,000, and a full stadium is pure profit. Take a match to Newcastle and, even if we assume it's a sell-out (not a guarantee), you get a maximum of 52k people, minus the costs of hiring St James's Park, converting it for rugby and back again, and duplicating a load of staff costs which they have as full-time jobs in London.

I like the idea of touring the UK, but Twickenham home internationals are the things that fund everything else in the English game. It's the only part of our pro game that's working rn!

Puja

Money talks, of course, but if the RFU want to spread the gospel up north then one match maybe at Old Trafford every two seasons could be a good investment. I’ve no idea how many northerners make the trip to Twickenham, but cost of travelling, match tickets and maybe overnight would be way beyond the means of your average rugby supporter.

[FKAS]

I've said that before - if we're having 10 or 12 clubs, it's impossible to get any kind of geographical coverage (especially when established clubs mean there's three in London, two in the East Midlands, and Bristol/Bath just 12 miles away from each other). If we can get 20 entities (even if some of them are semi-pro), we can cover places like Cornwall, Yorkshire with academies and a local club for fans.

It's a shame there's no practical way to have a club in East Anglia. It's bananas that my old school in Colchester falls into Northampton's catchment area, requiring 15 year olds to be transported a 240 mile round trip to play a "home" academy game.

Puja

Let's not turn the tap off on Tigers flow of Norfolk talent.

Rugby Union is in desperate need for more representation in Yorkshire. Donny is cutting a lonely figure after the relegations of Leeds and Rotherham. Would be nice to have a club up in Cumbria as well. There's lots of union clubs in the north but the lack of professional teams means League is always more likely to get first dibs on talent.

I guess we're still looking for a place to shove Wasps. Could have Chelmsford Wasps or Carlisle Wasps?

Puja

Carlisle would make sense. 18 thousand seater stadium that the football club have previously been happy to share and there's a few League 1 and Prem North sides that could be used as development grounds for players. Bit far from the Wasps training ground but land and other things tend to be cheaper up north.

[francoisfou]

Let's not turn the tap off on Tigers flow of Norfolk talent.

Rugby Union is in desperate need for more representation in Yorkshire. Donny is cutting a lonely figure after the relegations of Leeds and Rotherham. Would be nice to have a club up in Cumbria as well. There's lots of union clubs in the north but the lack of professional teams means League is always more likely to get first dibs on talent.

I guess we're still looking for a place to shove Wasps. Could have Chelmsford Wasps or Carlisle Wasps?

Puja

Carlisle would make sense. 18 thousand seater stadium that the football club have previously been happy to share and there's a few League 1 and Prem North sides that could be used as development grounds for players. Bit far from the Wasps training ground but land and other things tend to be cheaper up north.

Whitehaven Wasps has a certain ring to it?

[Puja]

Let's not turn the tap off on Tigers flow of Norfolk talent.

Rugby Union is in desperate need for more representation in Yorkshire. Donny is cutting a lonely figure after the relegations of Leeds and Rotherham. Would be nice to have a club up in Cumbria as well. There's lots of union clubs in the north but the lack of professional teams means League is always more likely to get first dibs on talent.

I guess we're still looking for a place to shove Wasps. Could have Chelmsford Wasps or Carlisle Wasps?

Puja

Carlisle would make sense. 18 thousand seater stadium that the football club have previously been happy to share and there's a few League 1 and Prem North sides that could be used as development grounds for players. Bit far from the Wasps training ground but land and other things tend to be cheaper up north.

Mind, there's only 70k people in the whole city and, with football and league both ensconced there, it'd be a big ask to get a worthwhile following. It might not be fair to the North, but 180k Southend (that's within reach of 120k Colchester and 180k Chelmsford, plus any Wasps fans still left in London), that has only non-league Southend United as a football-code competition, might be a genuine option. The current 12k stadium is a hole, but Southend United are planning a 17k stadium to be ready for 24-25 that they might be willing to share?

I mean, it's all arrant speculation based on absolutely nothing - I've seen no hints that they're looking to set up new franchises or relocate Wasps. But it would probably make more sense than staying in Coventry, to my mind.

Puja

[Banquo]

Well Cambridge is East Anglia and have a good chance of getting into the champ

As for Yorkshire clubs and more northern pro clubs .....there's a reason for the dearth £££. There were loads of top tier northern clubs, but pro rugby killed them. How do you get the income?

[Puja]

Well Cambridge is East Anglia and have a good chance of getting into the champ

As for Yorkshire clubs and more northern pro clubs .....there's a reason for the dearth £££. There were loads of top tier northern clubs, but pro rugby killed them. How do you get the income?

I actually hadn't realised East Anglia extended that far into the Midlands - if I had, I might've noticed that they do already have the best of all possible representatives in Bedford!

A poor choice of phrase on my part; I was thinking more of the Norflok/Suffolk/Essex grouping. Three massive counties, in size, population, number of rugby-playing schools, etc, which generally don't have much in the way of elite sports teams.

Puja

[Mr Mwenda]

Cambridgeshire is in east Anglia? Ya learn something every day.

[Mellsblue]

Well Cambridge is East Anglia and have a good chance of getting into the champ

As for Yorkshire clubs and more northern pro clubs .....there's a reason for the dearth £££. There were loads of top tier northern clubs, but pro rugby killed them. How do you get the income?

I actually hadn't realised East Anglia extended that far into the Midlands - if I had, I might've noticed that they do already have the best of all possible representatives in Bedford!

A poor choice of phrase on my part; I was thinking more of the Norflok/Suffolk/Essex grouping. Three massive counties, in size, population, number of rugby-playing schools, etc, which generally don't have much in the way of elite sports teams.

Puja

You’ve touched a sore point there, Puja. Bedford is technically East Mids much to the annoyance of many.
I’ve always assumed Norwich would be a good candidate to do an Exeter.
I’d suggest we get Sale and Newcastle to average five figure crowds before we plonk Wasps in Carlisle. Leeds Wasps might be an option if getting another northern team is the sole aim.
Knowing nothing about the place, but when has that stopped any of us, I’ve always thought Brighton is ripe for a pro rugby team.

[Margin_Walker]

The way they are talking, I assume in terms of league structure, we might end up with something like two leagues of 10 with promotion and relegation between. Ringfenced from there (or at least some kind of drawbridge to ND1). With the intention (or pipe dream) that the new Championship is more commercially viable, with inclusion in broadcasting deals. Potentially the 11th place team next season dropping down for the start of 24/25. So something like

Sarries
Bath
Bristol
Saints
Exeter
Quins
Newcastle
Sale
Gloucester
Leicester

London Irish (we'll find a way to get relegated when it matters)
Ealing
Pirates
Doncaster
Wasps (assuming they are resurrected)
Worcester (as above)
Bedford
Coventry
Jersey
Nottingham

Loads of hurdles in place for anything to work though, whatever they do. There's a lack of interest in club rugby hurting the bottom line, which is probably why things like the Hundred are coming up in conversation. There will be P share inequality, you'll be dumping a bunch of Championship teams down a level and any solution will rely on the PRL and RFU working together.

[Mr Mwenda]

Well Cambridge is East Anglia and have a good chance of getting into the champ

As for Yorkshire clubs and more northern pro clubs .....there's a reason for the dearth £££. There were loads of top tier northern clubs, but pro rugby killed them. How do you get the income?

I actually hadn't realised East Anglia extended that far into the Midlands - if I had, I might've noticed that they do already have the best of all possible representatives in Bedford!

A poor choice of phrase on my part; I was thinking more of the Norflok/Suffolk/Essex grouping. Three massive counties, in size, population, number of rugby-playing schools, etc, which generally don't have much in the way of elite sports teams.

Puja

You’ve touched a sore point there, Puja. Bedford is technically East Mids much to the annoyance of many.
I’ve always assumed Norwich would be a good candidate to do an Exeter.
I’d suggest we get Sale and Newcastle to average five figure crowds before we plonk Wasps in Carlisle. Leeds Wasps might be an option if getting another northern team is the sole aim.
Knowing nothing about the place, but when has that stopped any of us, I’ve always thought Brighton is ripe for a pro rugby team.

There's a lot of people on the south coast. It's certainly no sillier than many of the places that have big dreams. One might think Worthing's ultimate plan might be to use the Amex if they can get up another couple of rungs (unless they've crashed and burned since last I looked).

[Mellsblue]

As I’m in a cynical mood, all the quotes I’ve seen so far about a stronger second tier are based on having a decent playground for the 1/2/3 PRL clubs who have the misfortune to be there. I’m aware that improving the Champ whatever the motivation will help the league but surely an approach that involves a realisation that strong clubs, as well as a strong league, are needed, and that those clubs need £££ to help with wages in the short term and stadia etc in the long term. I dare not hope for any words on some equality of, let alone any, equity in this project/business.
I would be delighted to be proven wrong on PRL’s motivation.

[Banquo]

Well Cambridge is East Anglia and have a good chance of getting into the champ

As for Yorkshire clubs and more northern pro clubs .....there's a reason for the dearth £££. There were loads of top tier northern clubs, but pro rugby killed them. How do you get the income?

I actually hadn't realised East Anglia extended that far into the Midlands - if I had, I might've noticed that they do already have the best of all possible representatives in Bedford!

A poor choice of phrase on my part; I was thinking more of the Norflok/Suffolk/Essex grouping. Three massive counties, in size, population, number of rugby-playing schools, etc, which generally don't have much in the way of elite sports teams.

Puja

yup- Cambrideshire county rugby feeds Eastern Counties rugby. And we get East Anglian local news....I say news....

[Banquo]

As I’m in a cynical mood, all the quotes I’ve seen so far about a stronger second tier are based on having a decent playground for the 1/2/3 PRL clubs who have the misfortune to be there. I’m aware that improving the Champ whatever the motivation will help the league but surely an approach that involves a realisation that strong clubs, as well as a strong league, are needed, and that those clubs need £££ to help with wages in the short term and stadia etc in the long term. I dare not hope for any words on some equality of, let alone any, equity in this project/business.
I would be delighted to be proven wrong on PRL’s motivation.

How does the ££££ get generated without an influx of sugar daddies in it for at least 10 years.

[Mellsblue]

As I’m in a cynical mood, all the quotes I’ve seen so far about a stronger second tier are based on having a decent playground for the 1/2/3 PRL clubs who have the misfortune to be there. I’m aware that improving the Champ whatever the motivation will help the league but surely an approach that involves a realisation that strong clubs, as well as a strong league, are needed, and that those clubs need £££ to help with wages in the short term and stadia etc in the long term. I dare not hope for any words on some equality of, let alone any, equity in this project/business.
I would be delighted to be proven wrong on PRL’s motivation.

How does the ££££ get generated without an influx of sugar daddies in it for at least 10 years.

No idea. Which is what I’ve argued for years!

[Banquo]

As I’m in a cynical mood, all the quotes I’ve seen so far about a stronger second tier are based on having a decent playground for the 1/2/3 PRL clubs who have the misfortune to be there. I’m aware that improving the Champ whatever the motivation will help the league but surely an approach that involves a realisation that strong clubs, as well as a strong league, are needed, and that those clubs need £££ to help with wages in the short term and stadia etc in the long term. I dare not hope for any words on some equality of, let alone any, equity in this project/business.
I would be delighted to be proven wrong on PRL’s motivation.

How does the ££££ get generated without an influx of sugar daddies in it for at least 10 years.

No idea. Which is what I’ve argued for years!

aye, was just checking.There's a mismatch between aspirations in this whole discussion and reality- reality has downgraded many formerly great clubs esp oop north.