New Concussion report

Moderator: Puja

Post Reply
User avatar
Mellsblue
Posts: 14556
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Mellsblue »

fivepointer wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:34 pm This is a pretty balanced assessment (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-int ... le-content)

Good intentions, unintended consequences

The RFU Law change and who’s affected

The RFU yesterday (the 19th January 2023) proposed a new law change that is intended to come into effect from the 1st July 2023.

The change will apply across the;

a. Community game (Clubs, Schools, Colleges and Universities) at both age-grade and adult levels;
b. To National One and below in the men’s game; and
c. Championship One and below in the women’s game.

It does not apply to elite rugby, that is to say the Premiership or Championship in the men’s game.

There doesn’t seem to have been any trial of this rule change in the UK that we can identify. We understand that it has been trialed in amateur clubs in France for [since March 2019] and was introduced there in the wake of the deaths of four young rugby players including Stade Francais teenager Nicolas Chauvin after breaking his neck and Aurillac’s 21-year-old Louis Fajrowski following a heavy tackle.

To see an example of what will be affected and are actually broadcast, you only have to look at the World Rugby Schools festival and the England University and School Cups matches streamed on the England Rugby YouTube channel. These produce exciting and competitive matches comparable to Professional Rugby matches.

Does it also mean the annual Army and Navy game needs to adopt this? We just done know clearly yet but we are sure there will be clarification soon.

What’s the RFU done?

The upshot from the RFU statement is;

Reduced tackle height for all community rugby

Tackles must be made at the line of the waist and below.
The aim is to put players’ heads in the safest possible place by defining in law where the line of the tackle may start.
A greater focus on the actions of the ball carrier

Ball carriers will be encouraged to follow the principle that rugby is a game of evasion, and they should avoid late dipping and thereby avoid creating a situation where a bent tackler may be put at increased risk of head-on-head contact with the ball carrier through a late or sudden change in body height of the ball carrier.
Match officials will focus on the actions of the ball carrier as well as the tackler when head contact occurs.
The positives?

We can see positives from the proposed change. Namely;

a. The ball carrier may be less likely to receive contact to the head if tackled, reducing the risk of concussion;
b. The focus on waist-high tacking will place emphasis on the offload, that will speed up games;
c. The sport becomes more evasion focused, and less collision based which can be a positive.

The negatives?

It may be questioned whether these positives fail to truly acknowledge and accept that at its core, rugby is and always will be a collision sport. Evasion is one part of a player’s repertoire but it’s not the sole focus. Players are already trained to seek to move the ball away from contact quickly, but contact should always be an option, and a feature of the game. Do the proposed changes really make contact safer?

The law change seeks to adopt a half-way house approach that is well intended (and we don’t criticise the intention), but, we suggest, raise some real concerns. As an initial observation, we note that;

a. There seems no real sense in having two sets of laws, for the same game;
b. This will create inconsistency in how a match is refereed and sanctions handed out;
c. Whilst there’s a focus on speeding up the game, will this actually create more stoppage, more penalties, and more confusion?;
d. The tackling player in being forced to target the legs and hips region is exposed to an inevitable risk of head injury, which in my opinion seems to offset the risk of a head injury to the tackled player, shifting to the tackling player;
e. Players making safe tackles will be frustrated when penalised which could lead to an impact on playing numbers.

Some questions

If we look at the game broadly, and we both say this as ex forwards, our main thoughts are;

a. For us, as (relatively) unfleet of foot, and not particularly physically flexible, it would have reduced our tackle count in our playing days, as tacking above the waist is a staple of forward play, but we question whether the tackles that we would now be encouraged to make (below the waist, by ‘putting our head in’) would expose us to a lesser risk of injury;
b. Does this kill the maul? Its part of the game, and the way it is most commonly set up is by moving into contact. Can an opposition player now be penalised for trying to set up a maul?
c. Does it effectivity ban a wrap tackle, and in cases of 2 man tackles, make the possibility of injury to the tacklers very likely as one cannot go high, and the other low?;
d. How does a hand off play into this, a player who is handed off may then tackle over the waist height?
e. Why are you forcing a player go for a dangerous tackle area when a player is moving at speed? When you consider player size, its sometimes in a mismatch and necessary to start high and slide down lower to a player’s legs.
f. Chop (ankle tackles) can be just as dangerous when you look at injury potential. This change focuses more impact onto the leg joints;
g. How does it affect a tackle from behind?
h. In close range tackling how can you hit the waist if a player has dipped and they start moving with the tackler having no time to react and needing to wrap the player?;
i. How do you assess the waistline through a moving players shirt?

Conclusions

Firstly, in England as tackling is normally introduced and played from under 9’snwards, isn’t there sense in enforcing this rule to cover players up to the under 15’s level, and this level only?
Secondly, why has there been no trial of this? There seems to be a lot of potential problems and exposure to foreseeable danger that need to be assessed before an entire playing population is exposed to them.
Thirdly, when watching a game of televised rugby, there is an assumption that certain younger viewers, (and some older) will seek to replicate the tackles and strategies they see in games. Does this not lead to the potential for even more problems, and criticism of young players who may then be deterred from playing the game altogether?
Finally, it seems to us to be contradictory to send a message that players in lower leagues need to be protected, but players at a professional level don’t. We are troubled by this message.

It may well be that this law doesn’t come into effect. We can see it having a real impact on playing numbers at the grass root level. We will have to wait and see.

Liam Ryan

Adam Korn
Who are the authors?
I read something similar, re pros stay the same vs community changed, along the lines that you’re changing things for people who can just give it up based on their own risk assessment but not for people who will likely suffer more head/bread injuries at bigger forces but can’t decide to just give up as they have outgoings based on a wage they almost certainly can’t replicate outside of playing rugby.
This goes back to WT’s point that the RFU can’t act unilaterally at pro level but it is illogical when looking from that angle.
Banquo
Posts: 19094
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Banquo »

Mellsblue wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:56 pm
fivepointer wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:34 pm This is a pretty balanced assessment (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-int ... le-content)

Good intentions, unintended consequences

The RFU Law change and who’s affected

The RFU yesterday (the 19th January 2023) proposed a new law change that is intended to come into effect from the 1st July 2023.

The change will apply across the;

a. Community game (Clubs, Schools, Colleges and Universities) at both age-grade and adult levels;
b. To National One and below in the men’s game; and
c. Championship One and below in the women’s game.

It does not apply to elite rugby, that is to say the Premiership or Championship in the men’s game.

There doesn’t seem to have been any trial of this rule change in the UK that we can identify. We understand that it has been trialed in amateur clubs in France for [since March 2019] and was introduced there in the wake of the deaths of four young rugby players including Stade Francais teenager Nicolas Chauvin after breaking his neck and Aurillac’s 21-year-old Louis Fajrowski following a heavy tackle.

To see an example of what will be affected and are actually broadcast, you only have to look at the World Rugby Schools festival and the England University and School Cups matches streamed on the England Rugby YouTube channel. These produce exciting and competitive matches comparable to Professional Rugby matches.

Does it also mean the annual Army and Navy game needs to adopt this? We just done know clearly yet but we are sure there will be clarification soon.

What’s the RFU done?

The upshot from the RFU statement is;

Reduced tackle height for all community rugby

Tackles must be made at the line of the waist and below.
The aim is to put players’ heads in the safest possible place by defining in law where the line of the tackle may start.
A greater focus on the actions of the ball carrier

Ball carriers will be encouraged to follow the principle that rugby is a game of evasion, and they should avoid late dipping and thereby avoid creating a situation where a bent tackler may be put at increased risk of head-on-head contact with the ball carrier through a late or sudden change in body height of the ball carrier.
Match officials will focus on the actions of the ball carrier as well as the tackler when head contact occurs.
The positives?

We can see positives from the proposed change. Namely;

a. The ball carrier may be less likely to receive contact to the head if tackled, reducing the risk of concussion;
b. The focus on waist-high tacking will place emphasis on the offload, that will speed up games;
c. The sport becomes more evasion focused, and less collision based which can be a positive.

The negatives?

It may be questioned whether these positives fail to truly acknowledge and accept that at its core, rugby is and always will be a collision sport. Evasion is one part of a player’s repertoire but it’s not the sole focus. Players are already trained to seek to move the ball away from contact quickly, but contact should always be an option, and a feature of the game. Do the proposed changes really make contact safer?

The law change seeks to adopt a half-way house approach that is well intended (and we don’t criticise the intention), but, we suggest, raise some real concerns. As an initial observation, we note that;

a. There seems no real sense in having two sets of laws, for the same game;
b. This will create inconsistency in how a match is refereed and sanctions handed out;
c. Whilst there’s a focus on speeding up the game, will this actually create more stoppage, more penalties, and more confusion?;
d. The tackling player in being forced to target the legs and hips region is exposed to an inevitable risk of head injury, which in my opinion seems to offset the risk of a head injury to the tackled player, shifting to the tackling player;
e. Players making safe tackles will be frustrated when penalised which could lead to an impact on playing numbers.

Some questions

If we look at the game broadly, and we both say this as ex forwards, our main thoughts are;

a. For us, as (relatively) unfleet of foot, and not particularly physically flexible, it would have reduced our tackle count in our playing days, as tacking above the waist is a staple of forward play, but we question whether the tackles that we would now be encouraged to make (below the waist, by ‘putting our head in’) would expose us to a lesser risk of injury;
b. Does this kill the maul? Its part of the game, and the way it is most commonly set up is by moving into contact. Can an opposition player now be penalised for trying to set up a maul?
c. Does it effectivity ban a wrap tackle, and in cases of 2 man tackles, make the possibility of injury to the tacklers very likely as one cannot go high, and the other low?;
d. How does a hand off play into this, a player who is handed off may then tackle over the waist height?
e. Why are you forcing a player go for a dangerous tackle area when a player is moving at speed? When you consider player size, its sometimes in a mismatch and necessary to start high and slide down lower to a player’s legs.
f. Chop (ankle tackles) can be just as dangerous when you look at injury potential. This change focuses more impact onto the leg joints;
g. How does it affect a tackle from behind?
h. In close range tackling how can you hit the waist if a player has dipped and they start moving with the tackler having no time to react and needing to wrap the player?;
i. How do you assess the waistline through a moving players shirt?

Conclusions

Firstly, in England as tackling is normally introduced and played from under 9’snwards, isn’t there sense in enforcing this rule to cover players up to the under 15’s level, and this level only?
Secondly, why has there been no trial of this? There seems to be a lot of potential problems and exposure to foreseeable danger that need to be assessed before an entire playing population is exposed to them.
Thirdly, when watching a game of televised rugby, there is an assumption that certain younger viewers, (and some older) will seek to replicate the tackles and strategies they see in games. Does this not lead to the potential for even more problems, and criticism of young players who may then be deterred from playing the game altogether?
Finally, it seems to us to be contradictory to send a message that players in lower leagues need to be protected, but players at a professional level don’t. We are troubled by this message.

It may well be that this law doesn’t come into effect. We can see it having a real impact on playing numbers at the grass root level. We will have to wait and see.

Liam Ryan

Adam Korn
Who are the authors?
I read something similar, re pros stay the same vs community changed, along the lines that you’re changing things for people who can just give it up based on their own risk assessment but not for people who will likely suffer more head/bread injuries at bigger forces but can’t decide to just give up as they have outgoings based on a wage they almost certainly can’t replicate outside of playing rugby.
This goes back to WT’s point that the RFU can’t act unilaterally at pro level but it is illogical when looking from that angle.
Liam Ryan and Adam Korn? :)



They are a couple of barristers, seems a bit random.
fivepointer
Posts: 5891
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:42 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by fivepointer »

Liam Ryan and Adam Korn are a couple of lawyers with an obvious interest in the gamre.
ad_tigger
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:54 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by ad_tigger »

I think the other argument for leaving the pro game as it is is that you can expect better management of head knocks at that level what with instrumented gum shields and all that jazz. (Not that any of us believe that's 100% of the answer)
User avatar
Mellsblue
Posts: 14556
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Mellsblue »

ad_tigger wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:45 pm I think the other argument for leaving the pro game as it is is that you can expect better management of head knocks at that level what with instrumented gum shields and all that jazz. (Not that any of us believe that's 100% of the answer)
Here’s hoping the RFU are donating the gumshields and funds to cover associated running costs to the cash strapped semi-pro and amateur clubs in the Champ.
Banquo
Posts: 19094
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Banquo »

This has catalysed a lot of 'community' anti RFU angst, the final straw so to speak. I hear rumours of trying to organise a SGM and a vote of no confidence.
fivepointer
Posts: 5891
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:42 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by fivepointer »

The RFU were dumb. They failed to consult those in the community game and have sprung this on the game without much warning.
Now i appreciate lawsuits will sharpen the mind but a hasty, kneejerk reaction wont help anybody.
The game can and should seek to make sensible changes that reduces risk and make everyone safer, but at the end of the day thats as much as it can do. The game is a physical, collision sport and that carries risks.
Banquo
Posts: 19094
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Banquo »

fivepointer wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:50 am The RFU were dumb. They failed to consult those in the community game and have sprung this on the game without much warning.
Now i appreciate lawsuits will sharpen the mind but a hasty, kneejerk reaction wont help anybody.
The game can and should seek to make sensible changes that reduces risk and make everyone safer, but at the end of the day thats as much as it can do. The game is a physical, collision sport and that carries risks.
They should have thought about the timing and the level of implementation. But this has surfaced all sorts of issues around consultation and RFU 'commitment' to the grassroots and community- a lot of what I've seen is nonsense tbh, but I get it.
User avatar
Puja
Posts: 17650
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:16 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Puja »

Puja wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:08 pm
Puja wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:37 amThere's a petition going around lots of rugby club chats arguing against the change, and every time I look at it, it seems like the number of signatories has doubled: https://www.change.org/p/2023-24-tackli ... union-game
Not quite doubled, but this was at 16k when I posted that and it is now 25k. It's the sixth separate time that I've seen someone share it on Facebook.
Now at 50k.

Puja
Backist Monk
Banquo
Posts: 19094
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Banquo »

Puja wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:19 pm
Puja wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:08 pm
Puja wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:37 amThere's a petition going around lots of rugby club chats arguing against the change, and every time I look at it, it seems like the number of signatories has doubled: https://www.change.org/p/2023-24-tackli ... union-game
Not quite doubled, but this was at 16k when I posted that and it is now 25k. It's the sixth separate time that I've seen someone share it on Facebook.
Now at 50k.

Puja
Have they published the data behind this? I saw the RFU video and it was pretty cherry picked stuff.....and does recommend penalising the ball carrier for 'dipping' and tackling at navel height. Both are pretty unreffable tbh. I bet there are miles more micro concussions, or whatever the right phrase is, at ruck time than tackle time- use the laws as they are.
User avatar
Mellsblue
Posts: 14556
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Mellsblue »

Worth 15mins of everyone’s time:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/77489775
User avatar
Mr Mwenda
Posts: 2459
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:42 am

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Mr Mwenda »

Interesting, mells, thanks. But no Bedford link?!!!!
User avatar
Which Tyler
Posts: 9138
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:43 pm
Location: Tewkesbury
Contact:

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Which Tyler »

fivepointer wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:50 amNow i appreciate lawsuits will sharpen the mind but a hasty, kneejerk reaction wont help anybody.
12 years of research, trials, education and suggestions really doesn't count as a kneejerk.
I'd also point out that the RFU are the 3rd major union to arrive at this point (France first, New Zealand second). I suspect everyone else will be(more or less) here within the next 18 months
Banquo wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:41 pmHave they published the data behind this?
Pretty sure I linked you the best part of 200 recent articles yesterday (sorry, Thursday) - does that count?
Mellsblue wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:21 pm Worth 15mins of everyone’s time:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/77489775
Good read so far - is that Ross Tucker from the summer's twitter thread (linked at least twice in this thread)?
If so, he's also the author on several of the studies (including on the 2018 Championship trial that often gets quoted to say how terrible this change is)
User avatar
Mellsblue
Posts: 14556
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Mellsblue »

Mr Mwenda wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:33 pm Interesting, mells, thanks. But no Bedford link?!!!!
It’s not relevant to Bedford as no matter where you tackle a Bedford player it’s always the red zone.
User avatar
Puja
Posts: 17650
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:16 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Puja »

Mellsblue wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:21 pm Worth 15mins of everyone’s time:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/77489775
That is an excellent read, and the kind of communication that the RFU should've been making themselves.

I disagree with their argument of going all the way to the waist instead of sternum though. While moving the line to the sternum would mean there's a higher risk of small mistakes resulting in head contact, moving to the waist illegalises a load of completely safe tackles. Plus the backlash is not to be underestimated - there's no famous instigating factor in England, like there is in France with the deaths - and the change to the game of going to the waist is so big that I'm worried there'll be a massive exodus, killing hundreds of smaller clubs.

Puja
Backist Monk
Banquo
Posts: 19094
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Banquo »

Which Tyler wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:18 pm
fivepointer wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:50 amNow i appreciate lawsuits will sharpen the mind but a hasty, kneejerk reaction wont help anybody.
12 years of research, trials, education and suggestions really doesn't count as a kneejerk.
I'd also point out that the RFU are the 3rd major union to arrive at this point (France first, New Zealand second). I suspect everyone else will be(more or less) here within the next 18 months
Banquo wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:41 pmHave they published the data behind this?
Pretty sure I linked you the best part of 200 recent articles yesterday (sorry, Thursday) - does that count?
Mellsblue wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:21 pm Worth 15mins of everyone’s time:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/77489775
Good read so far - is that Ross Tucker from the summer's twitter thread (linked at least twice in this thread)?
If so, he's also the author on several of the studies (including on the 2018 Championship trial that often gets quoted to say how terrible this change is)
oooh.....sorry to be a nuisance :). I was asking about the specifics of the French study and the RFU detailed interpretation, but maybe I missed that.
User avatar
Which Tyler
Posts: 9138
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:43 pm
Location: Tewkesbury
Contact:

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Which Tyler »

Banquo wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:02 amoooh.....sorry to be a nuisance :). I was asking about the specifics of the French study and the RFU detailed interpretation, but maybe I missed that.
Ah, sorry - I haven't found them written up properly anywhere yet - possibly because my French is pretty rudimentary.
The best I've found so far is here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... le-height/
French trial success behind RFU's decision to drop tackle height

RFU is thought to be finalising details of a radical law trial, which will see the legal tackle height lowered to the navel in grass-roots
By Charlie Morgan, Senior Rugby Writer 23 December 2022 • 5:59pm


At the start of 2019, French rugby union was reeling. Over the preceding year, there had been four deaths relating to collisions on the pitch. Nicolas Chauvin was among them.

He was just 19. While representing Stade Francais Espoirs, the club’s under-21 side, the back-rower absorbed a two-man tackle and fractured a cervical vertebra, suffering fatal injuries. Yann Moison, a coach at Rennes, gave an interview to the BBC in which he lamented a culture of big hits.

“We are all responsible for creating rugby that favours collisions over movement,” he said. “The media love it when a player crashes into another and knocks them to the ground. The fans go ‘ooh’ when they play like bumper cars. It’s time to stop this.”

In the same feature, neurosurgeon Jean Chazal drew parallels between injuries sustained by community rugby players and civilians that had “road traffic accidents before seat belts and airbags were introduced”.

Officials from the Federation Francaise de Rugby requested an emergency safety symposium with World Rugby that was staged in March 2019 in Marcoussis, near Paris. The upshot was a law trial that would be launched the following season aimed at the amateur game, or Federale 2, down.

It has been the FFR’s belief that elite and recreational spheres should be separated by this differentiation. The legal tackle height would go down to the waist and there would only be a single tackler allowed in any one contact.

There would be no “blockage” on the upper body of carriers, and carriers themselves would be outlawed from “forward projection of the upper body” – or pronounced stooping – in contact. It seems as though the Rugby Football Union will be reprising a similar initiative next season, aimed at levels three and below in the English club pyramid.

One source had been concerned about the potential for head-on-head contact between two tacklers if, as expected, the legal tackle-line is to drop to the navel. The outlawing of double-team tackles would appear to solve that.

Indeed, the FFR has been pleased with results that were presented on day one of World Rugby’s medical commission conference in Amsterdam two months ago.

Initially, the tackle-height trial in France brought a spike in penalties. In a sample of over 50 matches from Federale 2, there was an average of 6.1 penalties per game for high tackles between September and October 2019.

That was up from 2.2 during the 2018-19 season. But, between February and March, when Covid disrupted the campaign, the number of high tackles had fallen to 3.8.

Game analysis showed that offloads increased, from 12 per match in 2018-19 to 19 the following season, as did the average number of passes, from 178 to 193. There were fewer kicks, which fell from 16 per match to just 11.

Crucially, the number of head-to-head contacts fell from 9.5 per match in 2018-19 to 3.5 per match. World Rugby’s research has continually shown that upright tackles and head-on-head collisions are the chief cause of concussive incidents, but it is natural to wonder whether forcing lower tackles would increase the risk of collisions between heads and hips and head and knees.

The FFR looked at the top two amateur divisions and used the number of blue cards, used to note suspected or confirmed concussions, to report that the 2018-19 season, before the tackle trial, had resulted in 2.71 head injuries per 1,000 hours of matches.

In the 2021-22 season, that had dropped to 2.24 head injuries per 1,000 hours. Of 604 clubs that responded to a survey, 59 per cent were satisfied with the new laws. Just over half, 51 per cent, of respondents were convinced that players have “greater security”.

The FFR itself believes that it has found a way to enhance safety and increase continuity, with games generally featuring fewer rucks, and say its experimentation has called into question years of damaging habits with regard to tackle technique.

It did, however, urge patience. Nathan Geekie can attest to the tricky transition. He travelled to Paris in May as his Stratford-upon-Avon side faced Sporting Club Universitaire. The touring team arrived on the Friday, and enjoyed a few beers, before facing their hosts the next day.

Twenty minutes before kick-off, the referee made them aware that tackling above the waist was illegal. “It was hard to get to grips with it, let alone on a bit of a hangover,” remembers Geekie, who estimates that Stratford-upon-Avon shipped about 25 penalties during a loss.

“You’re giving away penalties for tackling around the ribs and under the ball, which is tricky. When we were defending our own line, you can only get so low. Your muscle memory tells you to try to stop offloads, especially on bigger players, but you can’t. “It was just a bit bizarre and eventually our penalty count got a bit ridiculous.

We were losing and frustration crept in because things that were legal in our country were being penalised. When they come to us next, we’ll play under our rules … whatever they are by that point.”

Coaches have stressed that defenders should be given choice over tackle technique and that forcing bodies lower could be dangerous in certain situations. Series of pick-and-go carries feel particularly tricky, especially if referees are monitoring the body positions of ball-carriers as well.

Sometimes the safest solution is for a tackler to stay upright and absorb the impact of an opponent. The hope is that the RFU supports players with a coordinated effort from referees and coaches.

This week, sports scientist Ross Tucker, an influential figure in World Rugby’s research, said that a previous RFU trial in the Championship Cup had been “doomed from the start”. This time, it can follow how France appears to be moving away from “bumper-car” culture.
ETA: and also this, dated approximately 1 year into the French initiative: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/super-co ... -endorsed/
WAIST HEIGHT TACKLE:

France and Fiji are running trials to reduce the tackle height to the waist at community level with the rationale of lowering the risk of head injuries to both the tackler and tackled player. Initial feedback from the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) is positive, suggesting a more expansive game in addition to compelling player welfare benefits as outlined by the French Rugby Federation:

Threefold reduction in match injuries so far
60 per cent decrease in head impacts
31 per cent increase in line breaks
67 per cent decrease in kicks
Significant reduction in winning margins
fivepointer
Posts: 5891
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:42 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by fivepointer »

Very good examples yesterday in the Edinburgh-Saracens game of how the Pro game is failing to protect its players and to display the kind of responsibility that it should for the wellbeing of the wider game.
George gets in no kind of position to make a safe or legal tackle despite having the time to do so, bumps heads with ball carrier, is laid out for about 5 minutes, gets yellow carded and then incredibly comes back onto the field only to be taken off at h/t. Riccione also gets a yellow for a doing roughly the same. No attempt to get low in order to effect a safe tackle.
I do think clubs/coaches/players at the elite level have to do better than this.
Banquo
Posts: 19094
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Banquo »

One of the discouraging things in the headline report and video was that the quite sharp sanctions for head to head etc had made no significant difference to HIA's and concussions.
User avatar
Which Tyler
Posts: 9138
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:43 pm
Location: Tewkesbury
Contact:

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Which Tyler »

Banquo wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:22 pm One of the discouraging things in the headline report and video was that the quite sharp sanctions for head to head etc had made no significant difference to HIA's and concussions.
Might be my bias - but I think we'd (more or less) all noted the same.
The risk/reward of tackling high was just too good to change behaviour.
I can't remember who/where I saw the point but... If you ask a bunch coaches who they'd expect to win a match of with 15 men, who have to tackle as per next years regulations, vs 14 men who can tackle as per the current reg.s; the vast majority would expect the 14 men to win.. comfortably.
Banquo
Posts: 19094
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Banquo »

Which Tyler wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:36 pm
Banquo wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:22 pm One of the discouraging things in the headline report and video was that the quite sharp sanctions for head to head etc had made no significant difference to HIA's and concussions.
Might be my bias - but I think we'd (more or less) all noted the same.
The risk/reward of tackling high was just too good to change behaviour.
I can't remember who/where I saw the point but... If you ask a bunch coaches who they'd expect to win a match of with 15 men, who have to tackle as per next years regulations, vs 14 men who can tackle as per the current reg.s; the vast majority would expect the 14 men to win.. comfortably.
not seen it expressly said or even noted before tbh
User avatar
Which Tyler
Posts: 9138
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:43 pm
Location: Tewkesbury
Contact:

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Which Tyler »

Banquo wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:53 pmnot seen it expressly said or even noted before tbh
Fair enough.
I've said it a few times, but usually in match threads, where it's a relatively short side-track, answering "FFS, why does he still insist on being upright?!?!" type posts.
User avatar
Mellsblue
Posts: 14556
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Mellsblue »

Surely the next step would be to more strictly enforce the existing laws, ie all and any hits to the head, regardless of point of initial impact, dominant etc are a red, rather than hitting the nuclear button for everyone but the players of the coaches would rather run the risk of 14 players than asking for passive tackling. All that is assuming the 14 dominant tacklers vs 15 passive tacklers is even the mindset - is there any evidence?
User avatar
Puja
Posts: 17650
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:16 pm

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Puja »

Mellsblue wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:07 pm Surely the next step would be to more strictly enforce the existing laws, ie all and any hits to the head, regardless of point of initial impact, dominant etc are a red, rather than hitting the nuclear button for everyone but the players of the coaches would rather run the risk of 14 players than asking for passive tackling. All that is assuming the 14 dominant tacklers vs 15 passive tacklers is even the mindset - is there any evidence?
That would last for a week, before getting drowned in a sea of pundits and DoRs whining that it wasn't fair and he didn't mean it and ruining the game and this isn't tiddlywinks, etc etc.

Puja
Backist Monk
User avatar
Mellsblue
Posts: 14556
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am

Re: New Concussion report

Post by Mellsblue »

Puja wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:45 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:07 pm Surely the next step would be to more strictly enforce the existing laws, ie all and any hits to the head, regardless of point of initial impact, dominant etc are a red, rather than hitting the nuclear button for everyone but the players of the coaches would rather run the risk of 14 players than asking for passive tackling. All that is assuming the 14 dominant tacklers vs 15 passive tacklers is even the mindset - is there any evidence?
That would last for a week, before getting drowned in a sea of pundits and DoRs whining that it wasn't fair and he didn't mean it and ruining the game and this isn't tiddlywinks, etc etc.

Puja
I suppose the answer to that is to not listen to the DoRs and pundits.
Post Reply